I did a search and didn't find anything comprehensively conclusive.

I think it would help me and a lot of others if we could narrow down the subjective effects on a scale like what has been done on the shroomery.

Where do you think the qualitative differences are?



Feel free to write your own distinctions with this template:

I posted this in another thread as requested by Emptiness. I feel it is appropriate to post here to hopefully get the ball rolling on how people might classify the DMT experience...

Anyway, I'll do my best to describe it:

Level 1: Threshold effects. Minor to moderate head change. Floors and walls may become wavy or melt a bit. Cognitive function remains almost fully in tact and most would be able to go about their normal business in this state.

Level 2: Slightly above threshold effects. Morphing of inanimate objects becomes more pronounced. For me, an alien sort of written language may appear over the surface of objects (subjective, of course). Thoughts begin to increase in speed. Slight disorientation. Cognitive function still there but it is easier to lose focus.

Level 3: The Sub-breakthrough. This is where things start to get very weird. A sensation of being crushed or under intense pressure may occur (it isn't painful, but is quite startling). One usually remains "present" in this reality while a fractal circus dances about but one can still become completely disoriented or lost in the moment. My girlfriend has even reported entity contact even in sub breakthroughs. Many different physical sensations may occur, senses may even start to blend together depending on dose. The ego is likely to start being affected at this level. A buzzing or clicking sound sometimes occurs. Focus becomes much foggier.

Level 4: The Breakthrough. Crushing/pressure becomes much more pronounced which continues until you "pop"through or "breakthrough." This generally results in complete loss of the physical self in an immense sea of complicated geometric patterns sometimes accompanied by the "carrier wave." You will likely be saying goodbye to your ego at this point, so be ready for that. Senses can melt together.
Impossible dimensions will unveil themselves. You won't be able to tell if your eyes are open or closed.

You may also be transported to an alternate reality (via blasting out of your body, or sometimes it feels like what I'd imagine teleporting would feel like), and often times forgetting that this waking reality even exists. This can be downright terrifying for someone who has never experienced anything but waking reality. Some report flying through an endless tunnel but never actually going anywhere. Intelligent and seemingly independent Entity (or Entities) contact is quite common in this level but not always guaranteed. There could be one or thousands. You never really know until you're there. Simply put: Some are nice. Some are jokers/tricksters. Some seem Evil. Some are benevolent.

The Entities may teach/preach/play games/torment/perform hyper-dimensional surgery/tickle/show you impossible things etc. etc. etc. It is truly hard to describe a breakthrough, I mean some people blast off and are flung into a void of nothingness...no colors, no light, no fractals, nothing... nothing but a pure stream of consciousness.

Level 5: The Breakthrough's Breakthrough. I won't go into detail because I can't. Like I mentioned above, breakthroughs tend to top themselves. So when level 4 reaches a level 5, the next time you journey, you may see another 4 or 5 turn into a 6 and so on and so forth infinitely...

Well, there you have it according to me. Please note that none of this is definitive. These levels are based on my own experiences and countless other experience reports found here and Erowid mainly.

Lol I don't even remember posting that on that thread you linked. I think grateful did a pretty good job outlining the different levels. I'll edit this later when I'm on the computer and add/subtract my own understanding of the different levels.

If you check out my vaping guide I have a basic explanation of the different levels that is very slightly more broad than what I posted in the linked above thread.

I don't mean to piss all over a very good post with tremendous potential for value, but wish to suggest that much moreso than classic psychedelic experiences - the majority of what happens once a breakthrough occurs is both so personal and ineffable that putting anything beyond what is a "sub-" experience (and as the vast majority of DMT users seeking the "breakthrough" experience as the desired effect it could be considered "under-dosing" from this perspective,) that essentially we're just categorizing how close someone was within the trajectory of either reaching a breakthrough or having missed the breakthrough.

So essentially what you're left with is a very detailed model and description of dosages and experiences that fall short of the intended experience (which may or may not be described with words like mystical, catharsis, transcendental, etc...) and anything experienced at the level of the "intended DMT experience" (which I'm all too aware is the grossest generalization plausible, but still seems quite relevant,) is not adequately round-blocking into the square-holed system for analysis.

Essentially, this model seems to hold up until the person has reached a breakthrough dose, which (at least as those posting here can probably agree with,) vary so much that it seems as though "you either did or you didn't" is the most productive way to discuss it.

As a side note, an adequate mode to categorize the breakthrough would probably stem from Hood's Mysticism Scale (inspired by Stace's four part breakdown of the mystical,) struck me as an appropriate way to determine if breakthrough was achieved (worth noting that this is the scale that helped define the mystical when the 43-part Mystical Experience Questionairre, aka MEQ, was created for a 2011 study into psilocybin and mystical states.)

I think someone else had a post like this some time ago, trying to differentiate the different levels. I recall beginning to fill in each level, when I realized it was kind of pointless. The variety and variations of effects that can occur at each "level" are both overwhelming and overlapping. Furthermore, I don't see what good it does for the reader. Especially when you start "pushing the envelope" toward the higher end of the experience spectrum, this whole system would break down considerably....Level IV: "Pulling out all the stops"....Level V: "You forgot some stops"...

This is pretty much how I always felt about this or the shulgin scale, though I can see how his scale was useful for his writing and RC experiments. But if it helps you then that's cool to

Level VI: You didn't know this stop existed

Level VII: Everything was a stop along along

Level VIII: There are no stops

Level IX: ...Unless you would have just smoked a little bit more...

Yeah, I pretty much felt the same way when I started to fill out the above levels. It seems that a scale for DMT is just inadequate because of the subjective variables from person to person. DMT is a different psychedelic beast and I filled out the levels mainly because a newer member wanted to see what it could or would look like. That is also why I left level 5 open ended because DMT is ever changing and continuously topping itself, IME.

That being said, my write up of the levels is pretty generalized and by no means, in-depth. So to any newer users of DMT, this scale is to be taken with a grain of salt because your experience will vary greatly.

So, do you feel the same is true for mushrooms?

on a very generic level i agree with gratefull's description, but i could add two more levels to that (from my subjective experience):

LEVEL 0: There is a light buzz, and you trying to understand if anything happened. you look into your hands, and notice there is a slight change, and think: I have to moalk moar!

LEVEL 3B: (changa sub break trough) - There is a slight change of objective reality, vision more foggy, strong fisical sensations, no body/ego loss, but with closed eyes there is like this inner screen, where you see most of your own breaktrough contents (landscapes, entities, sacred simbols, etc) but you are not interacting with it, or immersed in it, you are conscious, and looking to it like you would to a movie for ex.

^This is some mid-level that I only get with changa, with DMT only I mostly have gentle and abstract visions and fractals below the breaktrough level, or I have a breaktrough, and these contents come in a fully emersive experience.

LVL 6 Welcome

go beyond the decontamination , interview rooms , pass all the other junk, and are now literally making friends in these realms, to the point the visuals seem as common as staring at your friends wall . "Soft Possession " in which u can sit back n watch them move "your" body and feel something else moving it, your also going past all this monkey zen nonsense Ie a holeless hole voidless void etc , your at the point, were a God in these realms in your body will move your left hand and tap you on the right shoulder and will "say" see , try, when thoughts start to "turn on" taps the mind then says "sssshhh" .

To the point that u can destroy a dimension with sheer "will" and laugh n watch it change. to the point that u can eat realms worlds.

To the Point that "making contact is so simple.

To the point when u feel them leave u know it and wave till next time, now back to earth.

As your coming back to earth your waving and then calibrating the body to continue on with your Ape Story.

I disagree with some of the sentiment towards reaching a breakthrough experience. I have had a few, but most of my excursions with DMT are not with breakthrough intentions. And I feel like this emphasis on breakthrough may not be serving the public good.

Also, I think that the original post is fairly accurate with a couple exceptions. One exception would be a level 6. Glossing over this very real possibility may be convenient as it does not put DMT in a good light, but doing so would be irresponsible and incomplete.

Level 6: Memory loss. It's not exactly clear what happens or why, but seemingly trauma caused by not being entirely ready for the experience, simple over stimulation, or some other unknown mechanism (hyperspace MIB??) cause amnesia. This amnesia is commonly encapsulated by the level 5 experience, but is sometimes accompanied by retrograde and/or anterograde amnesia that can wipe the entire experience from memory.

I have not experienced this myself, but have witnessed a few individuals go through this and this seems to be corroborated by some reports on the Nexus. I know that some would like to attribute this to drug interactions or an individual that is not compatible with DMT, but my experience seems to point to a dosage in excess of what is needed to reach hyperspace, but not necessarily a vastly larger dose.

The other points that should be added;
Level 2: anxiety
Level 3: confusion + anxiety
Level 4: feeling of dying, fear of permanently being in this state (not alleviated by experience)
Level 5: One becomes convinced that death has happened.

If someone truly wants to experience the full and tremendous force that is DMT, then in my opinion, the breakthrough is definitely where the real magic happens and is worth experiencing. It can absolutely be confusing, terrifying, and can leave you weeping when you come out of it, gratefully kissing the ground you thought you would never see again. But this shouldn't scare people away because the opposite is also true. Visions of so-called heaven, pure bliss, and unimaginable ecstasy exist in that realm too. It can be a bit of a gamble every time you sip on your Aya or load up your bowl of changa which is why set and setting play such a huge role in creating a positive and comfortable atmosphere. This is an important aspect of any psychedelic experience.

DMT is not for everyone. For whatever reason, some people are less equipped to deal with the traumatic event that unfolds before their eyes. These facts should be taken very seriously by anyone who wants to peek their head in and see what all the fuss is about. No one should be pushed into breakthrough territory unless they feel they are completely ready. Even then, it is impossible to know what to expect, so expect nothing, observe everything. For anyone who has never taken DMT, reading the thread below is a very good explanation as to why DMT may or may not be for you:

Why you should NOT take DMT



In relation to the scale for mushrooms, I do feel pretty much the same. It is nice to have some sort of generalized reference to look at but to be honest, how would we ever know if my level 3 is the same as your level 3, or 4 or 5+? I think it is mostly useful for those who have yet to experience the deeper levels so that they can try to get a vague understanding of what could possibly happen. Other than that, it is really just a matter of opinion based on each individuals personal experiences.

So by these scales I guess I've gotten to about a 3 3/4 level. Using the scales above, for me it's been a kind of mix and match. This last one, maybe I wasn't prepared for because it was really confusing. I remember my visuals synched with the radio, and then it was all chaos. I got what is similar to salvia (I know I keep mentioning salvia, but it correlates pretty well) when you forget you smoked or where you're at, confusion. And then I remember the radio got "stuck". I had that happen once before with mushrooms, the radio slooooooooowwwss....waaaaaaaaay....ddooooooown, and then gets stuck. That was when I started coming back and realized what I was doing and where I was at.

When you guys talk about going deep and seeing palaces and entities, are you clear headed? Can you focus etc because from the descriptions I read it sounds like you can. Do I just need to get my feet under me with more milder experiences and then I'll be able to hold on to my focus?

I really want to go deep, but I really dislike the chaos. I wasnt prepared for it to do what it did though so it was all over me before I could even acknowledge it so. I guess I just need more practice but, when you guys are in that other place are you "clear headed" and "aware" of what you are doing?

There is always another level...