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Pilocarpus organensis and Pilocarpus spp. Workspace - A Source of 5-MeO-DMT? Options
 
SnozzleBerry
#1 Posted : 9/28/2014 2:36:24 PM

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While talking to Jonathan Ott two nights ago, the topic of 5-MeO-DMT source plants came up. He immediately suggested looking in to Pilocarpus organensis, which he suggested might have ~.58% 5-meo content.

This paper indicates the presence of DMT and 5-meo, based on two sources Balsam, Voigtländer, 1978 and Riba et al., 2002.

Additionally, this species is supposedly devoid of pilocarpine.

Balsam, Voigtländer, 1978, Ein psychotropes Alkaloid aus Pilocarpus organensis
and
Effects of ayahuasca on sensory and sensorimotor gating in humans as measured by P50 suppression and prepulse inhibition of the startle reflex, respectively
are attached to this post.

The Riba paper is quite a conundrum, as it does not appear to have anything to do with pilocarpus or 5-meo. Perhaps it will be best to ask him directly.
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jamie
#2 Posted : 9/28/2014 5:44:01 PM

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2 questions...

Can we grow it in temperate regions..

..and can we grow enough of it in temperate regions..

This has become the main issue in my experience when it comes to plant sources of any of these tryptamines..I have looked into this plant in the past but its a species of the tropics..still I would like to try to grow one...

I still think that we need to look at digitaria species for 5meoDMT..and I happen to have collected a large bag full of digitaria sanguinalis a couple weeks ago while at work..perks of being a gardener(seriousily I have collected so many "weeds" at work its rediculous)...it's in my freezer atm...I also have digitaria ischemia.

Thanks Snozz I will watch this topic unfold.
 
Morris Crowley
#3 Posted : 9/30/2014 5:51:11 AM

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Interesting indeed. Are the seeds or live plants available through specialty gardening shops or private collections? I did a quick search and mostly found people saying that they'd been seeking the plant for years without success.

That Riba et al. reference is definitely curious. I'm guessing it's a mistake, and not a trivial one. As far as I can tell, Jordi Riba has never written any papers that mention Pilocarpus organensis.

A note on the toxic pilocarpine: It hasn't been reported to occur in P. organensis, but that doesn't mean that it's definitely not present. Early experimenters would do well to be cautious. Be 100% sure of the botanical identity of your specimens, and check for the presence of pilocarpine (e.g. with TLC).

It looks as though Balsam & Voigtländer is the only published report of 5-MeO-DMT from the plant. There may be some unpublished work... in an appendix to Tryptamine Palace, James Oroc says that the leaves contain 0.41% 5-MeO-DMT, and that figure definitely doesn't come from Balsam & Voigtländer. It's either from another analysis, or perhaps a case of mixed-up notes. Can anyone contact Oroc to ask him?


I've pulled out the relevant figures from Balsam & Voigtländer, as far as 5-MeO-DMT content is concerned:
Code:
Starting material: 1250 g
Total alkaloids:   13.32 g (1.06%)
5-MeO-DMT picrate: 17.90 g (from 11.74 g of total alkaloids)

And a couple other important numbers for understanding these data:
Code:
m.w. 5-MeO-DMT         218.298 g/mol
m.w. 5-MeO-DMT picrate 447.398 g/mol

So the mass of their picrate salt is equivalent to 8.734 g of 5-MeO-DMT free base.

One point I am not clear on... Total alkaloid from the initial extraction was reported as 13.32 g, but the picrate was generated from 11.74 g of the total alkaloid. Based simply on the reported mass of 5-MeO-DMT picrate compared with the starting material, we see a concentration of 0.70% 5-MeO-DMT in the plant. But if we assume that the other 1.58 g of total alkaloid that wasn't salted with picrate contained the same alkaloid mix, then the content would be slightly higher: 0.79%.

Note that these figures are based on two idealized assumptions: that the extraction efficiency was 100%, and that the picrate salting efficiency was 100%. Of course neither of these is true, so the actual 5-MeO-DMT content is probably somewhat higher.

The takehome message: Ott is right. If this is something people can grow outside of South America, this looks like a very promising source of 5-MeO-DMT.
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endlessness
#4 Posted : 9/30/2014 10:45:56 PM

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Pilocarpus manuensis




Tree, 3 meters tall. Leaves composed of folioles, all with oval shape, with long tip and whole margin. Green flowers and fruits are in shell shape, with lateral opening.

Traditional uses in Kaxinawa culture: Bath made with brew from leaves, for "nisu~", sudden pains, and for Ame Bakea (Capybara epilepsy), disease in which the person grinds the teeth, caused by the person`s parents or grandparents having eaten the capybara babies which are forbidden

Source: Ika Muru, Agostinho Manduca Mateus (2014). Una Isi Kayawa: Livro da cura do povo Huni Kuin do Rio Jordao. Dantes Ed., 2014
 
Morris Crowley
#5 Posted : 10/4/2014 6:11:00 AM

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Just checked on the status of the name Pilocarpus organensis. Looks like it is no longer an accepted name, but is now a synonym of Pilocarpus pauciflorus A. St.-Hil.

I'm not sure this information gets us anywhere new, but it gives us one more search term anyway.

Link: Tropicos page for P. pauciflorus
Synonymy was established by: Kaastra, R. C. 1982. Pilocarpinae (Rutaceae). Fl. Neotrop. Monogr. 33: 1–198
It has only been found in Brazil. It is reported to occur in: Bahia, Paraná, Rio de Janeiro, Santa Catarina, São Paulo.

I also encountered a review of the jaborandi complex by Bo Holmstedt, Henry Wassén, and Richard Evans Schultes (pdf attached below). The general thrust of the paper is that the jaborandis are hopelessly muddled, the term being used to refer to plants which are pharmacologically and botanically diverse. Restricting the term only to certain pilocarpine-containing species of Pilocarpus is apparently not consistent with the historical literature.

One interesting point: P. organensis has not been associated with jaborandi, but apparently P. pauciflorus has. On p.14, Holmstedt et al. refer to a Brazilian reference which indicates that "as a general epithet" jaborandi may refer to any of several Pilocarpus species, including P. pauciflorus. On p.16, they note that in the early 20th century, P. pauciflorus was sometimes traded commercially as jaborandi. This doesn't necessarily mean that P. pauciflorus contains any pilocarpine... apparently several of the jaborandis traded at that time were considered pharmacologically worthless.
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WorldSeedSupply
#6 Posted : 10/4/2014 7:30:56 AM
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Is that Bolivia it's from?
 
endlessness
#7 Posted : 10/4/2014 9:33:23 AM

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Brazil, WSS Smile

Thanks a lot Morris for the great info! Good to have another keyword to search for and the botanical drawings.

I have friends in those areas but issue is finding someone who' s interested enough to hunt it down. Very few people care like we do about these things Very happy Otherwise next year if I go visit Brazil again I will def try and find it.
 
MultiDimensionalTherapy
#8 Posted : 10/4/2014 3:35:36 PM

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endless do you know the portuguese or huni kuim name of the plant?
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endlessness
#9 Posted : 10/4/2014 4:08:13 PM

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http://reflora.jbrj.gov....licaTaxonUC.do?id=FB887

This page says in Santa Catarina they call it pitaguará do branco. Or as Morris posted, Jaborandi, but that seems to be a pretty generic term that might lead into the wrong plants.. Might be worth keep an eye open for both names anyways.

It doesn' t seem to be native in the Amazon, so my guess is the Huni Kuin or other groups did not use it or even know of it. If it has traditional use, then it' d have to be the Guarani in the sudeste area, or maybe other groups in Bahia, but no clue if this plant has any ethnobotanical history of use.
 
endlessness
#10 Posted : 10/25/2019 9:28:52 PM

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A couple of interesting things:

Pilocarpus pauciflora is found in many places of Brazil, from hot northeast in Bahia, hardiness zone 12, to significantly colder south of Brazil zone 10a. This means it could probably grow in many other countries from tropical to temperate zones.

I'm attaching a paper comparing anatomy and morphology of Pilocarpus pauciflora (syn. Pilocarpus organensis), so that it helps identifying if we ever get the opportunity to find this plant.

Also, Morris Crowley, regarding the yield of the Balsam & Voigtländer paper, I think it is actually 0.24%. If you follow down what the paper says, after mentioning the picrate yield, it says it cleans it up to get the 3g of the recrystallized freebase (from the 1.25kg initial plant material).
 
 
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