Finally got this pic from HBWR / CWE.

are the unwanted fats present in HBWR water soluable too? as iin it will be mixed in th soliution or will it be suspended and easily removed?

Congrats on your progress through the years Lysurgon. Im in the same quandry as you were experiencing years ago as to the conversion from LSA to a LSA monohyrate. Thanks for the input on LSH not being present in MG, ive always assumed Heavenly Blues were the jackpot but i stand corrected!

(Although an old post, but as it just popped up, will add some correcting info, if anyone is ever reading through this again)

This is surely not correct. Already out of the simple reason, that the fungi on the plants only synth LSH (with ergometrine as last intermediate), not LSA. All the LSA was always LSH before. There's no known fungi, who can synth LSA (also e.g. C. paspali only synths LSH)

Also there's plenty of old (1960s, with Gröger who started it) up til very recent papers which clearly show an abundance of LSH in MG seeds (Ipomoea Tricolor).



Nope, that is surely not correct. See above.

@AUM_Shanti

do you have any recommendations of other articles or personal tips on isolating LSH/LSA?
I don't think KASH has posted in a bit and I can't personally get a hold of him on the forum and there hasn't been any updated info since 2012-14. I'm sure theres some new knowledge on the subject.
&
Is LSH even a necessity in the conversion process?

EDIT: THANKS JAMUR ILL TAKE A PEEP!

Hey there,

Kind of an old post...but here ya' go. There's allot of good information in both of these posts, as well as Kash's Tek in the wiki. In the posts linked below Benzyme made some enlightening comments about the tartrate salt of LSA and Frobot made some good progress. I'll be playing around with some extraction in the near future based on whats presented here. Ill be sure to post if any relevant success is had.


https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=30454

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&m=580483

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=685510#post685510

What do you mean by "is LSH even a necessity in the conversion process?"..? What information are you looking for exactly? From reading around here it seems that LSH inevitably converts to LSA.

Best,
Jam


Edit: Added 3rd Link.

During the extraction? Nope, definitely not.

Strange that this myth seems so widespread here. Yes, LSH is more delicate, that's why originally Hofmann didn't discover it, but since then many people made extractions preserving it successfully (incl Hofmann), as can be read in a plethora of papers.

Again requote from what Benzyme already requoted, from the history thread:

("most", not all)

You just have to make sure, that during the alkaline step you do not take any strong base (e.g. no NaOH), no high PH, and make this step as short in duration as possible (although this does seem to be the least important point, when looking at Gröger's work).

In acidic environments OTOH LSH seems pretty stable, unless too acidic, which pushes epimerization (but which at most converts about half of it to iso-LSH).

BTW: I wouldn't call Kash's tek "LSA tek", as it does not only deliver pure LSA. To get pure LSA, IMHO you would need to use e.g. a column, which some people here did indeed.

Unfortunately Kash called it "Pure LSA Extraction", although he knew it isn't, which could have also added to the LSA myth, as surely quite some people were thinking that this is now how pure LSA feels like.



E.g. you can read my ramblings on my corresponding thread, there's a lot of info about LSH, and many related papers mentioned. Maybe I should make a composition.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75332

E.g. you could do it like Gröger did. This extraction method seems to preserve most of the LSH. Interestingly it is kinda similar to Kash's tek by using acetone as main solvent, but Gröger stays at PH 8-9 during extraction (Kash goes higher, which is bad for LSH). BTW: ergolines in general do not like high PHs...

Again Gröger's tek:

* Ground the seeds to a fine powder
* Washed (defat) 5 times with Naphtha (Petroleum-ether)
* About 0.5g of the powder in 10ml (2g tartaric acid in 30ml water + 70ml acetone) shaken for 1 hour (repeated an additional 2 times, for 3 runs in total)
* Heated in water bath until acetone evaporated
* Washed several times with ether
* Made alkaline with ammonia PH 8-9
* extracted 3 times with DCM

Then you would obviously again salt it out. As maleate shall be the most stable, as I got from some discussions on the hive, but not sure if this is really more stable than as fumarat (btw maleic acid is the cis-isomer of fumaric acid).

And again, this is just an alkaloid extraction, yielding all alkaloids.



What conversion process?

The famous "LSA->LSH" conversion by essential oils?

I'm very suspicious, that this is what is taking place. Any chemists I asked so far about it, said that this conversion would not take place as easily like that. Also all similar conversions I found so far in the literature needed way more sophisticated methods to make it happen (e.g. like special catalyzers).

Something is definitely changing, but unless someone does a proper analysis, we will never know what exactly.

What conversion process?

The famous "LSA->LSH" conversion by essential oils?




no, my question is; is LSH essential to have when forming an LSA monohydrate? id like to solidify LSH & LSA and i know a simple CWE will not be sufficent for my project.
and yes i didnt think simple kitchen chemicals could prove to be heavy enough solvents for a sutable enough LSA molecule to endure the lsd procedure.


Also is there a way of ensuring my final product is in fact pure LSA with no lipids or any other unwanted material other than a UV light reaction or complicated chromatogrpahy?

Thanks @AUM_Shanti, its good to hear some input that challenges a massive simple TEK that may not be the most sutable (KASHs) . Im about to read over the threads you mentioned!

{quote=Jamur}And again, this is just an alkaloid extraction, yielding all alkaloids.

you make it sounds as if this isn't the desired intention? isn't the goal isolating the correct alkaloids?

Do you have experience extracting HBWR?

ive been deeply researching isolating LSA's from HBWR, and also hydrolysis and purification's of this to LA.

im looking at solid phase extraction of the alkaloids like what is done on liquid cultures of mycelia.

Using Bentonite, I was refereed that I could use alumina with more ease and less mess and a easier visual indication ( uv) than bentonite by someone on another forum..



big thing im not sure how it will react is the fat part of the extraction with the solid phase.. if defat can be skipped, should I only be doing a sodium bicarb wash, not sure.. here. especially if you collumn clean up, or if its true that only ergine tartrate salts out and the unwanted toxins are left behind as water soluable.

Well, many people think such an extraction will only yield LSA, which is not the case. I just wanted to make sure, people are well aware, that such an extraction like from Gröger gives you all alkaloids, also e.g. the clavines.

If you just want the LSA, then you can surely easily convert the LSH to LSA. But don't be too extreme on the conditions, or you destroy the compounds and end up e.g. with some lumi compounds.

But I personally don't see a way around using a column to get pure LSA, if you start by seeds.



You don't need any "complicated chromatography". E.g. if it crystallizes out nicely (e.g. see pic from Benzyme) and a TLC only shows LSA, you can be pretty sure to have quite pure LSA. Sure some minor impurities may still be there, but who cares.

@Vreality:

I think Benzyme might shed some light on it.

I personally think with HBWR it's probably difficult, as they have a ton of stuff in them (e.g. compared to the MGs). Why not going the paspali way in the reactor. Probably a more effective way to get LA in the end. And the advantage there is, that it has the purest profile, so that AFAIR from a paper, you can even get away without a column.

if an elf left me a plate of some production, or below production quality paspali, I wouldnt say no and switch my research/ set up to stuff thats actually been, and being worked on very much so.. but I Dont have that so I try to focus on what I can do. Unless im blessed some how, then I can make that happen, but I figuerd id eventually run into it down the road...
but yeah I'd love to do bioreactor just no starting material to work with. so I need to work with HBWR..

until i can run into some..

ive talked to benzyme some about it, hope to go into experimental and do a pull on some material here in the next week or two. and see what comes of it and refine from there..

I need to look up alkaloid profiles of MG's and HBWR again, but im pretty sure HBWR is the only one that is worth while weigth wise. because 10kg of MG is just scratching the surface 10kg of HBWR is some real results.

so really its HBWR, or find a wild strain of it my self and not know what to do with it barbecue I dont have mass spectrography equipment like benzyme does.., or try to pray to gods a Steven hall strain falls in my lap.

an elf is going to do some transfers of the strain today, which reverted back to wild-type (low production) genetics, and may pitch it your way. Mutation can be done by successive platings, by exposing them with a 10-20 W germicidal lamp for 10 s to a min; 95% of the fungus will be killed off, but the surviving sectors may begin producing honeydew.

And we have a "Happy End"

Usually I'm not the one favoring such corny endings...LOL...

@Vreality:

For extracting big amounts, surely HBWR would be way preferred over MG, because of the pure amounts needed. But seems topic has changed for you now...

going to try some of those key words and see what I can find on the process. been a few years since I read about cultures

I suppose I can set up a series of plates to carry out that process, I will certainly be exploring the high and lower spectrum of those time periods if that is one of the only variables to see if there is an optimal exposure duration. I assume I'll need to qualitative test results to confirm but I suppose ill get a little more knowledge on that once I find some of the pertinent texts.
..

im curious which UV bands are optimal for this aswell.. as there are 3 UVA UVB UVC, so it will also change results depending on which bulb is used to carry out this process and how far it is, and the duration of time exposed ( from brief reading already results are visual ) . so time to dig in on mutation methods. and where the write ups on mutating claviceps are hidden.

is brown the desired color for lsa after extract?

no. it's a sign oxidation has occured. if you shine a 365nm light on it, and it is less than a brilliant blue to teal-blue, it isomerized