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Psilocybin dose-dependently causes delayed, transient headaches in healthy volunteers Options
 
SnozzleBerry
#1 Posted : 5/12/2014 3:27:08 PM

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I've noticed that over the past several years, I have increasingly encountered headaches after I've come down from mushroom experiences. They're not completely debilitating, but are not pleasant. They do not always occur, but when they do an ibuprofen or two is adequate to make them a non issue, for me. I used to think it may have been due to dehydration, but after a number of experiences where I was very conscious about water intake, I ruled that out.

I stumbled across this paper a couple years ago, but after encountering a headache yesterday, went back to re-read and thought I'd share it with the community. I have taken 5-htp in advance of mushroom trips before and do not think I had headaches after, but can't recall.

Anyway, for anyone else who encounters that, or for otherwise interested people...

Here you go
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Cognitive Heart
#2 Posted : 5/12/2014 3:45:37 PM

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My first mushroom experience resulted in a slight headache next day following. It felt like a beneficial pain though, similar to any pain experienced during or after exercise. As if my brain changed dimensions and stretched out. I had not experienced any headaches with any other psychedelic before this. I had recurring headaches with mushroom experiences with increased dosages but as the text suggests, non-disabling and short lasting.

Thanks for the info!
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Muskogee Herbman
#3 Posted : 5/12/2014 3:52:12 PM

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Thanks Snozz! I have something slightly different but along the same lines to add

This isn't the same thing, but as people like me who use psychedelics to treat cluster headaches need to be aware that there is a potential for a "slap back" headache which is where you get an attack after busting a cycle.

There is no research on what causes the "Slap back" or how psilocybin even causes the prevention of CH.

"Everyone is different, but there often is an immediate sense of relief, followed within a few hours or a day or two, by the return of cluster attacks. These “slap-backs” can be abnormal attacks – shorter or longer than usual, or more painful or less painful than usual, and coming at odd times. There might be a few or several but these attacks then may begin to fade, at least for a while."
https://clusterbusters.org/?page_id=26

"The same treatments and coping methods used in the detox period can be used for these “slap-back” attacks and residual symptoms. Oxygen seems to be particularly effective when using the tryptamine treatment. For more on this, see COPING: BUSTER-FRIENDLY TREATMENTS."

I haven't had any slap-backs with mushrooms, though I have had two with LSD.

I am curious to know if slap-backs are at all similar to what you have experienced.
The headaches from mescaline in the pdf sound similar to cluster headache to me.

[edit] after reading more evidence showing relation to cluster headache:
"The pain from headache is transmitted through a plexus of largely unmyelinated fibers that
surround the large cerebral vessels, pial vessels, large venous sinuses and dura mater to the ophthalmic division of the trigeminal ganglion"

This is the same location (Trigeminal) where cluster headaches are active. Cluster headaches are known as "trigeminal autonomic cephalalgias"

Very interesting! Please feel free to just say I'm making free association. Dr. Andrew Sewell who was one of the major researchers in unauthorized research on cluster headaches was involved in this study, so I could be totally wrong here.

[edit x2] seek and you shall recieve.
"Prolonged efficacy in terminating cluster periods and extending remission periods is difficult to explain as a consequence of receptor stimulation or antagonism, which should persist only for the duration of acute pharmacologic effect, or from receptor up- or down-regulation, which generally resolves over two weeks to two months. A number of other possibilities have been suggested, including disruption of the circadian rhythm through 5-HT1A, 5-HT2C, or 5-HT7 modulation, or through 5-HT2A-mediated gene induction (Sewell et al., 2006). It would not be surprising if psilocybin both induced and treated headache by a related mechanism; however, this mechanism is as yet unclear."
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Global
#4 Posted : 5/13/2014 12:47:05 AM

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That's interesting snozz. I have some friends who after they smoke DMT will report headaches as well. I've experienced them on occasion, but not anything significant. With DMT, sometimes just taking in a hot vapor is enough to set it off though.
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Muskogee Herbman
#5 Posted : 5/18/2014 8:41:16 PM

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I took some LSD yesterday, about 1/2 a tab (I reported in chat a different amount because of another story so just for people who were there lol), but it was pretty strong I gauge somewhere at 80 micrograms, anyway it aborted a cluster headache for a short period then on the come down the cluster attack returned, I was able to sleep which is abnormal, and the pain as well was abnormal, but still signature of cluster attack (Trigminial disturbance)

This is the 4th time (Out of probably 50+ trips) That LSD has either caused or exacerbated a cluster attack in me. This means to me and not a far stretch (and I'm no professional I want to make that clear!) that LSD also can be applied to the results of this study. (Early reports of mescaline are said to cause migraine after ingestion in the first white scientists to study it)

Now here's whats really cool. The attack did persist through the morning, and since DMT was working to relieve the pain for me the night before I decided to just try it, it couldn't hurt after all. Anyway, it aborted the attack! This is the first time forever, that DMT has aborted an attack for me. I'm not saying to try DMT if this happens to you (results from this study) But it alleviated the post transient headache from psychedelics for me.

Again I am no medical doctor this is just an experience report.
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obliguhl
#6 Posted : 5/19/2014 9:05:47 AM

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Snozz, you are my hero of the day for posting this! I would never have imagined, that this is actually researched! Not only mushrooms do that, dmt does it as well, creating REALLY debilitating "delayed transient headaches". I have always wished to learn more about this, because it is keeping me from taking more psychs.
 
Kohan
#7 Posted : 5/20/2014 2:43:28 AM
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Could it be the''rebound effect'' of the megaconstricting effect of serotonin's psychs on the blood vessel in the brain(caffeine withdraw cause headache and vasoconstricting make it dissapear + there alot of information and neurogenesis taking place in those hours might result in micro-inflammation with mean additive vasodilatation.

Cool

Love ya
 
obliguhl
#8 Posted : 5/20/2014 7:13:21 AM

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Kohan wrote:
Could it be the''rebound effect'' of the megaconstricting effect of serotonin's psychs on the blood vessel in the brain(caffeine withdraw cause headache and vasoconstricting make it dissapear + there alot of information and neurogenesis taking place in those hours might result in micro-inflammation with mean additive vasodilatation.

Cool

Love ya


I also found this hypothesis most interesting. Really feels a bit like meningitis to me!


I'd really like to know, what that serotonin rebound effect is depending on. The dose alone? Or is it mediated by genes? Is there a common baseline of serotonin that is getting re-established? I'm asking because the dorsal raphe nucleus is apparantly smaller in those with depression. So if the rebound is not dependent on dose alone, couldn't it be that the baseline which gets re-established is significantly higher in comparison for those who have a smaller nuclei/less serotonin activity?

Do depressed people get more headaches from mushrooms ?
 
Elpo
#9 Posted : 6/5/2014 2:01:01 PM

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This is a great thread! Can't tell you guys how happy I am to see this.

I have had headaches after my experiences with mushrooms too. I have had my last mushroom trip last week Friday and have had the headache on Saturday. Mostly they start the day after the trip and are gone by the evening. As the OP states, they are not debilitating (not enough for me to even take medication) but are not pleasant. I also had the feeling that the pain was gone while I was "doing" something and it came back when sitting still.

I also felt what Cognitive Heart said: it seemed as if my third eye was being overstimulated and was being the source of the headache in some strange way.

I must try the 5-htp next time. Can anyone else testify to the helpfulness of the 5-htp prior to a mushroom trip? And how long before do you use it and in what dosage?


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obliguhl
#10 Posted : 6/5/2014 7:12:35 PM

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kerelsk
#11 Posted : 6/6/2014 12:52:53 AM

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I get headaches almost every time I take mushrooms, it usually comes on during the tail-end of the experience.

It feels like I've just taken in too much visual signal, it's usually really concentrated around the eyes. Doesn't feel terrible, it tends to end with effects of the mushrooms. This might be a different kind of headache from what everyone else is talking about.

Funny that it happens even when I take them at night.
 
The Unknowing
#12 Posted : 6/6/2014 2:42:47 AM

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Headaches are quite common for me after smoking some DMT. I feel it the next day, but the day after I feel absolutely ridiculously good and sharp (mentally).

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Muskogee Herbman
#13 Posted : 6/6/2014 3:13:18 AM

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kerelsk wrote:
I get headaches almost every time I take mushrooms, it usually comes on during the tail-end of the experience.

It feels like I've just taken in too much visual signal, it's usually really concentrated around the eyes. Doesn't feel terrible, it tends to end with effects of the mushrooms. This might be a different kind of headache from what everyone else is talking about.

Funny that it happens even when I take them at night.


Thats exactly the same headache this study is about
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Elpo
#14 Posted : 6/6/2014 9:28:00 AM

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[quote=obliguhl]Here is another Thread you might find interesting, elpo:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=5810[/quote]

Thanks for the link Obli, but does the dehydration thesis also go for mushrooms? I am not a coffee drinker at all. I must say that the last time I drank less water then usual...

Will pay attention to it next time.

"It permits you to see, more clearly than our perishing mortal eye can see, vistas beyond the horizons of this life, to travel backwards and forwards in time, to enter other planes of existence, even (as the Indians say) to know God." R. Gordon Wasson
 
SnozzleBerry
#15 Posted : 6/6/2014 2:29:21 PM

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As stated above, my own experiences led me to seek out an explanation other than dehydration, owing to the fact that I made sure I was very well hydrated on a number of occasions and I still got headaches. That search was what led me to this paper.
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obliguhl
#16 Posted : 6/6/2014 7:40:57 PM

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I would also rule out dehydration. As a matter of fact, i get allergic everytime someone suggests that to me as a solution. I also tried "proper nutrition" ...it's just not as simple.

The migrain is also hard to kill. I'd take 1x 400mg advil + 1g Acetylsalicylacid just to make it tolerable ...- with a strong DMT headache that is.

With mushrooms its usually not as wild, but the strength of the headache correlates to the strength of the effects for me.

For me, the least problematic is ayahuasca. That could mean that vasoconstriction plays a role.
 
Muskogee Herbman
#17 Posted : 6/6/2014 9:59:52 PM

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Try 5htp and Melatonin next time.

I think vasoconstrictors would work the best. In my first post I quoted a possible link between cluster headaches and these headaches: "It would not be surprising if psilocybin both induced and treated headache by a related mechanism; however, this mechanism is as yet unclear." The pain is in the same areas, and its the same nerve that's effected.

Again, not a doctor, but I do suffer from cluster headaches and 5htp and Melatonin work when I get an attack a day or two after dosing with psilocybin or LSD.
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Elpo
#18 Posted : 6/7/2014 4:11:33 PM

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Muskogee Herbman wrote:
Try 5htp and Melatonin next time.

I think vasoconstrictors would work the best. In my first post I quoted a possible link between cluster headaches and these headaches: "It would not be surprising if psilocybin both induced and treated headache by a related mechanism; however, this mechanism is as yet unclear." The pain is in the same areas, and its the same nerve that's effected.

Again, not a doctor, but I do suffer from cluster headaches and 5htp and Melatonin work when I get an attack a day or two after dosing with psilocybin or LSD.


Can you elaborate on how you go about taking the 5htp? Dosage, before the trip, or after etc?

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Muskogee Herbman
#19 Posted : 6/7/2014 4:54:50 PM

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I got some 200mg capsules from the grocery store. I take it with melatonin (5mg) during an onset of the headache, in my opinion it would be a good idea to take it for maybe 3 - 5 days after you trip. I have taken before the trip but I didn't notice anything different.

Now they've got these new Melatonin caps that have Valerian Root 100mg, Hops 50mg, Charmomile 50mg, Passion Flower 50mg, Taurine 50mg, and Melatonin 5mg. Taking this with the 5htp has worked for me extremely well.

I don't know too much about hops and charmomile, but they're ok to take as long as they don't cause vasodialation. Taurine, Passion Flower, and Melatonin are definite helps though.

It should work I mean, again not a doctor, but it definitely has worked for me at least twice so far.
I hope I was helpful!
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Elpo
#20 Posted : 6/8/2014 8:13:38 AM

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Very helpful thanks!
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