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correcting san pedro myths (work in progress) Options
 
AlbertKLloyd
#1 Posted : 1/13/2014 5:46:16 PM

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Recently revisiting the site of a shady grower has demonstrated that false informatiom is being propagated online about Trichocereus allies with mescaline content.

The purpose of this ongoing thread is to address myths and lies that are easily found online so that those interested in these plants can have decent information.

The first myth
to address is that there is only one true San Pedro cactus. The term San Pedro, meaning Saint Peter, pertains to a spiritual practice in which Saint Peter represents a spirit invoked and involved in Andean Shamanism. This term is widely applied to many cacti in the Andes, including T. peruvianus, T. pachanoi and T. bridgesii among others, it is not specific to T. pachanoi at all, that is a myth. There are many cacti known as San Pedro, further more there is a related myth stating there is only one form of T. pachanoi, not only is this not true but there is an abundant amount of evidence illustrating this well, including photographic evidence from the Andes and numerous collections of plants and seeds from the Andes.

Related to this topic is the clone known as the PC clone, also called by some other names (including the Cactus Kate clone), this clone is the most abundant trichocereus in propagation today, but is atypical for Andean pachanoi and is quite weak despite being a fast grower. Pachanoi from the Andes are not like this clone at all, and many experts believe that the PC clone may be a hybrid. It is my belief that this is the case and that the plant may be half cuzcoensis given the traits of the offspring of the plant, it appears that the plant contains alleles for long spines that are recessive to a short spine allele, likewise despite being alkaloid rich and very bitter the plant contains very little mescaline, from none at all to typically less than 0.1%, making it 10-20X weaker than some authentic T. Pachanoi!

The second myth
to address here is that T. peruvianus contains more mescaline that T. pachanoi. Not only is this not supported by analysis, the opposite is indicated. Levels of mescaline in T. pachanoi have been measured as high as 2% whole plant and >4% for the outer skin (both % are for dry weight) while T. peruvianus has measured near 1% whole plant in a case of a plant that appears to have been misidentified T. pachanoi, KK242, which as a number indicates an area in Peru and not a plant is used for a number of plants collected in this range including T pachanoi, T peruvianus and T. cuzcoensis. In one recent analysis of dried outer skin T peruvianus was demonstrated to contain 0.24% mescaline, while in the same study the strongest T pachanoi was 4.7%!

If we include the variety T peruvianus puquiensis a recent study found the values:
0.11%
0.13%
0.28%
0.5%
this was all for dried outer skin!

It is worth noting that several studies of both T pachanoi and T peruvianus demonstrate a range of mescaline content and in some specimens found none at all. However even with the range the indication of the data is that T pachanoi tends to be consistently stronger than T peruvianus.


The third myth
] is that the majority of the alkaloid in the plant is in the outer skin, while it is true that the outer skin contains the highest per weight concentration of mescaline or alkaloid found in the plant it is also true that the outer skin is a small fraction of the plants overall weight, while the inner tissue is much greater in mass. So while the inner tissue is weaker on a weight for weight basis there is more of it and as much as 2/3 of a plants alkaloids can be in this inner tissue, despite the strongest concentration being in the outer tissue.


The fourth myth
is that analytical data is conclusive enough to extrapolate into expectations of yield. Even for a single clone of a single specimen there is evidence that variation occurs both seasonally as well as in other ways. You might have a clone that has been demonstrated to have mescaline and you grow and extract it and get nothing at all or get a weak yield, and then you try it another time of year or at some later point and get a decent yield. Anecdote indicates that mescaline recoveries tend to be highest when cuttings and plants are in a dormant state, often giving the best returns or effects during the winter period. This does not mean plants are not active or incapable of being potent during summer, just that in the experience of many people plants tend to be more potent in winter.

In one very interesting analysis by Shulgin a T pachanoi specimen which has been named Juuls Giant was demonstrated to have little mescaline (<10% of total alkaloid) and instead had an unidentified isoquinoline as the predominant chemical, another analysis demonstrated an unknown alkaloid with no apparent mescaline and yet another analysis demonstrated 1.4% mescaline in the outer tissue!

Interestingly some cases are also known where a plant when ingested or made into a tea or brew was considered fairly potent but upon extraction did not yield much mescaline at all. Many questions remain as to why this is and various theories have been proposed.


Myth five
is that these plants are best cared for like cacti in general, while it is true they are cacti and they also vary to some degree regarding their care they also come from a climate that often receives 3+ feet of rain a year and most of this during the winter cold season! These plants often not only tolerate but prefer heavy feeding and watering and thrive in a rich environment. I have seen the PC clone growing in containers which did not drain where the roots were submerged in water for months at a time, this would kill most cacti and will kill many Trichocereus, however it demonstrates how hardy these plants can be. Ideal care for them includes a lot more water and food than most people tend to expect. under ideal conditions they can grow around 3+ feet (a meter)a year! The conditions they prefer are a lot more like those ideal for corn or some other leafy plant and not much like is typical for many cacti. Some forms, clones and specimens are a bit more sensitive than others to wet conditions, however many growers do not let the soil grow entirely dry or tend to water as soon as the soil dries, during the active growing season. Many growers who bring their plants inside do not water them during the winter, however if your climate allows them to be grown outside year round they enjoy wet roots during winter or the cold season. They typically tolerate cold to around 20*F +/- 5*F.

Myth six
is that the best way to grow a large amount of cactus in the shortest amount of time is from cuttings. A cutting tends to double in size yearly until it is established and then branches that are actively growing can grow up to 3 feet a year or so. Seed can be a bit slow to establish but can in many cases yield established plants in 3-4 years. However seed is not particularly expensive and so you can grow hundred or thousands of seedlings in a few years, to grow the same amount of cactus via cuttings would be ridiculously expensive. Moreover when growing from seed there tends to be variation allowing selection for desirable characteristics including potency, growth rates, tolerance to water, sun and fertilizer and other aspects. If the parents of the seed are proven plants the seed tends to produce proven plants and these days high quality seed of proven clones is easily obtained through purchase or trade. Even when dealing with seed of unknown heritage of varieties like T. bridgesii and T. pachanoi you are liekly to obtain many quality specimens. I prefer hybrid seed for specific reasons including vigor, however seed of hybrids and pure forms is widely available if one knows where to look and is often inexpensive, prices of $4 per 50 seeds or lower are common, though some more expensive seed can be found.

It is also a related myth that seed of cacti is particularly hard to grow or requires special conditions, this is not true. I have thrown seed on top of dirt and watered and had seedlings grow and just watered them when the soil started to dry out and had them grow very well. Issues such as rotting or fungal problems are rare when using a healthy soil and are typically only an issue when people grow in enclosed container that do not breathe, are too wet and involve sterile or axenic conditions. The truth is that cactus seed is ridiculously easy to grow. Likewise seeds like bright conditions, rarely is direct sunlight good for seeds, however they prefer bright conditions and wattages of 25-50W per square foot are ideal for fluorescent, LED or HID lighting, also ideal are greenhouse conditions. When using artificial lighting place the seedlings as close to the light as possible without overheating them, as a general rule if you hand feels uncomfortable with the warmth of the light the seedlings will too.

Growing from seed is the easiest way to produce a large amount of quality cactus in the least amount of time for the least amount of money.

I will return to this topic and continue to add and address myths, feel free to contribute or ask questions!
 

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Mitakuye Oyasin
#2 Posted : 1/13/2014 9:06:15 PM

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Great info AKL. Thanks.
Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous.
— Terence McKenna


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
magic9
#3 Posted : 1/13/2014 10:14:47 PM

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i am extremely excited and anxious to read what you post here man. as a new cactus collector its been difficult finding authentic cactus and wading through all the BS vendors.


Here is a doc that lists some info regarding potency as per what you are talking about above. might be useful


https://www.facebook.com...hocereus%20Potency.docx

 
ziggus
#4 Posted : 1/13/2014 11:48:55 PM

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AlbertKLloyd wrote:
Related to this topic is the clone known as the PC clone, also called by some other names (including the Cactus Kate clone), this clone is the most abundant trichocereus in propagation today, but is atypical for Andean pachanoi and is quite weak despite being a fast grower.


I'm a little confused. Are you saying that a Cactus Kate T. pachanoi is the same thing as a PC clone and is weak? I got 2% mescaline from Cactus Kate cuttings using 69ron's D-limonene tek for the first time. I was pretty happy with that percentage and with the growth from the sections I planted -- they tripled in size over the course of 9 months.
 
magic9
#5 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:04:02 AM

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WOW are you freakin serious....

now im completly confused.
 
AlbertKLloyd
#6 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:11:24 AM

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ziggus wrote:

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that a Cactus Kate T. pachanoi is the same thing as a PC clone and is weak? I got 2% mescaline from Cactus Kate cuttings using 69ron's D-limonene tek for the first time. I was pretty happy with that percentage and with the growth from the sections I planted -- they tripled in size over the course of 9 months.

Yes I am.

It is the PC clone, the seller literally drop ships it from others usually and does not grow or ID his own cacti. Do you have a write up with the measurements and photographic evidence?

Like I said, I know people who he has bought cacti from, who sold him PC, that he sold as Cactus Kate material! So when I say that the material is PC and is weak, I am not kidding.

To get a 2% yield means you bought plants from him, dried them out, weighed them dry, extracted them and calculated your yield subtracting the weight of the acid you used to salt and came up with a total.

Please present the data.

A 2% yield is extremely rare and hard to believe.
Your yield may have been contaminated with DMPEA.

Quote:
they tripled in size over the course of 9 months.

Pics or it didn't happen.

 
AlbertKLloyd
#7 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:14:26 AM

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magic9 wrote:
WOW are you freakin serious....

now im completly confused.

Try this, dry out some of the Cactus Kate material, measure out 100g exactly and use the same method and report your yield back here.
Take pictures too, someone saying they got X yield with zero data or photographic evidence is highly questionable.
 
AlbertKLloyd
#8 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:25:56 AM

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Note, the seller claims all his San Pedros are T pachanoi and all come from "cactus Kate"
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.drugs.mescaline/MLyevkqdhZ4
Quote:
A good friend of mine ordered a little over six pounds of fresh cactus
from an Ebay member named "zircon6" and after extraction they obtained
less than one gram of Mescaline from these cuttings.

I personally know people he purchased PC clones from and resold them for a high price.
The idea that someone got 2% seems frankly unbelievable without proof.


Also a review of his website shows poor IDs, bad knowledge about cacti in Peru and other places and general ignorance on the topic.

I will continue to address myths here that also include some from his page.
He goes to great lengths to prevent and hide negative reviews and present a false picture.
Wink

 
ziggus
#9 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:35:07 AM

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Hmmm... I have no desire to get into a pissing contest, and I am not challenging your knowledge. I was simply asking because this is the first time I've heard of the PC clone being the same as Cactus Kate.

I first decided to try cactus well over a year ago, and I did a fair amount of research. So I knew enough to avoid the PC clone, and IIRC the vendor I bought from was recommended on the (now defunct) Suppliers Forum right here and on other forums as well. He happens to sell "Cactus Kate" and goes into great detail about his cultivation practices on his websites -- yes he has more than one. I have no idea if this is the same vendor that you say is an unscrupulous drop-shipper or not. All I know is I got some potent cuttings and happy, healthy cacti from the same stock growing in my back yard now.

edit: zircon6 is the same vendor I purchased from. So this guy is a fraud? Fair enough, I have no dog in the fight.
 
magic9
#10 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:39:51 AM

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ziggus wrote:
Hmmm... I have no desire to get into a pissing contest, and I am not challenging your knowledge. I was simply asking because this is the first time I've heard of the PC clone being the same as Cactus Kate.

I first decided to try cactus well over a year ago, and I did a fair amount of research. So I knew enough to avoid the PC clone, and IIRC the vendor I bought from was recommended on the (now defunct) Suppliers Forum right here and on other forums as well. He happens to sell "Cactus Kate" and goes into great detail about his cultivation practices on his websites -- yes he has more than one. I have no idea if this is the same vendor that you say is an unscrupulous drop-shipper or not. All I know is I got some potent cuttings and happy, healthy cacti from the same stock growing in my back yard now.

edit: zircon6 is the same vendor I purchased from. So this guy is a fraud? Fair enough, I have no dog in the fight.


Hey man i really appreciate the feedback Smile could you possibly take pics of your growing Cactus Kate plants for me? id love to see how they compare to mine. Thanks brosef
 
ziggus
#11 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:47:51 AM

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AlbertKLloyd wrote:

I personally know people he purchased PC clones from and resold them for a high price.
The idea that someone got 2% seems frankly unbelievable without proof.


Wow. Here's my last comment before I abandon this thread to avoid further insult.

I did the extraction over a year ago and kept track of my yield at that point only because everything I had read suggested that for various reasons yields can be highly variable even within the same strain of cactus. Once I was satisfied, I had no reason to keep that documentation. And anyone could make up data to post here, that would not constitute proof.

I'm out.
 
ziggus
#12 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:52:36 AM

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magic9 wrote:
Hey man i really appreciate the feedback Smile could you possibly take pics of your growing Cactus Kate plants for me? id love to see how they compare to mine. Thanks brosef


I'll take a pic and PM you with it tomorrow, since I'd rather not participate in this thread anymore.

Now I'm really done. Very happy
 
magic9
#13 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:53:20 AM

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ziggus wrote:
AlbertKLloyd wrote:

I personally know people he purchased PC clones from and resold them for a high price.
The idea that someone got 2% seems frankly unbelievable without proof.


Wow. Here's my last comment before I abandon this thread to avoid further insult.

I did the extraction over a year ago and kept track of my yield at that point only because everything I had read suggested that for various reasons yields can be highly variable even within the same strain of cactus. Once I was satisfied, I had no reason to keep that documentation. And anyone could make up data to post here, that would not constitute proof.

I'm out.



hey man your input is valued as well. if you have info to provide please do instead of leaving the thread Smile I think albertKloyd is just SUPER PASSIONATE heh Smile
 
AlbertKLloyd
#14 Posted : 1/14/2014 12:56:08 AM

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It just seems odd, I know he buys PC clones and passes them off as Cactus Kate material.

2% is considered extremely high for a yield, very very rare.
if you bought 5lbs fresh and got about 2.5g recovery that is near 2% dried.


And Ziggus, this is your first post in the cactus section ever.

Pardon me if it seems very suspicious.
I know E.R. joins forums to promote his wares, I am not saying you are he, but your results that you report are not only extremely unusual for Cactus Kate material, they are extremely unusual for whole plant trichocereus in general.

How did you dry it?
Maybe you got lucky and his supplier sent a hybrid instead of the Cactus Kate clone, please post pics of your plants that tripled in 9 months, maybe they are not PC?

I think his reporting he got an almost unheard of recovery, having zero details and then leaving without clarification seems very suspicious as does this:
Quote:
I got 2% mescaline from Cactus Kate cuttings using 69ron's D-limonene tek for the first time...

I did the extraction over a year ago and kept track of my yield at that point only because everything I had read suggested that for various reasons yields can be highly variable even within the same strain of cactus. Once I was satisfied, I had no reason to keep that documentation. And anyone could make up data to post here


So he kept track of his yield then discarded the documentation, but remembers the percentage of recovery, but not the actual yield or amount processed and admits that anyone can make up data to post here... this thread marks his first post in the cactus forum ever, made just for this thread to claim he got an almost unheard of yield and his plants tripled in size in 9 months? That is to say if his plants were 2 feet tall, in 9 months they were 6 feet tall! All for a clone nobody else has reported these kinds of yields or growth rates for?

I admit I am suspicious of it as a claim.


 
magic9
#15 Posted : 1/14/2014 1:48:28 AM

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1) Who is E.R.?
2) I just taste tested my Cactus Kate san pedro... i almost gagged it was so bitter..

I know the next thing ill hear is "bitterness is not a reliable indication". But hey at least its bitter this time unlike my Cuzco.

I peeled the skin layer off revealing a dark green sticky layer. I licked this layer and it was verrry bitter. I tested the inner most core and it wasnt nearly bitter like that if at all.

Is under the skin the right location to taste test?
 
AlbertKLloyd
#16 Posted : 1/14/2014 1:59:28 AM

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Yes, that is the right area, the dark green skin, and for the record the PC clone is one of the most bitter clones known, despite being weak! It is alkaloid rich, the question is though, how much of that is mescaline?



 
magic9
#17 Posted : 1/14/2014 2:05:34 AM

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Surprised Confused
 
hostilis
#18 Posted : 1/14/2014 5:27:49 AM

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My PC pachanoi plants taste extremely bitter.

And about this zircon6 dude. I don't think he's a fraud. He sells nice plants (whether they're PC or not) but he's definitely not a very nice guy. His website is full of him bashing on trout and saying everything trout says is wrong, but yet when I've asked him questions about his plants on ebay he never knows the answers.


Thanks for this write up AlbertKLloyd.
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magic9
#19 Posted : 1/14/2014 6:01:43 AM

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hostilis
#20 Posted : 1/14/2014 6:27:37 AM

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Yeah, that's his website that is full of a bunch of BS. He uses Kate's name to make himself look better. He's basically ripping off somebody that died to make profits in my opinion.

But I really have no clue about the authenticity of his plants. They look nice, but I've never ordered from him.
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