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Theoretical LSA to LSH conversion Options
 
69ron
#1 Posted : 6/8/2009 5:57:20 AM

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SWIM today had another successful attempt at converting LSA to LSH. He added 250 micrograms of LSA to a cup. He put 2 tablespoons of dried peppermint leaf. He then adding piping hot water to it and mixed it. He let it sit for 90 minutes and drank it down.

Within 2 hours the effects were very noticeable. Music sounded different, more detailed. Things in his house looked strangely unfamiliar. He got that excited LSD stimulation from it as well. No drowsy LSA effects were felt and the quality of the experience was far more like authentic LSD than LSA.

Now I'm wondering why this works sometimes, but other times it fails to work. I don't get it. SWIM has done this many times. It seems to be a hit or miss. Sometimes it completely fails, other times it works completely. It's like either all the LSA stays as LSA or it all converts to LSH. There seems to be no middle ground.

Now all of this is theoretical. I don't know if LSH is actually being created from the acetaldehyde in the peppermint or if something else is happening. Whatever it is, the change is dramatic when it works, or there's no change at all.

Does anyone have any idea why this works and why this fails consistantly? SWIM is using the same peppermint leaf, the same isolated LSA, the same amount of each, and the same amount of water. But still it works sometimes and completely fails other times. It's weird. What could cause this?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 

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1008
#2 Posted : 6/8/2009 7:11:31 AM
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Does SWIY give the same amount of time for the reaction each time? It consistently worked for SWIM, but when SWIM gave some to his friends without giving much time for the reaction (~5min), they reported feeling "tired" and other LSA like effects.

SWIM put HBWR extact into a 50ml bottle of peppermint schnapps and it worked 5 out of 5 times so far. This suggests that the problem is an inconsistency in the preparation, not storage conditions (eg temperature) or human body chemistry.

In another thread somewhere you recommended not storing the extract, but that bottle has been stored at room temperature in low light condition for weeks and still works fine. Was that just a precaution, or does SWIY have evidence that it does degrade slowly yet appreciably?

Since physics is deterministic and all, it has to be some inconsistency in what SWIY is doing or your starting materials. Without seeing the process, I can only guess, but my guesses are 1) reaction time, and 2) temperature.
 
bufoman
#3 Posted : 6/8/2009 7:14:24 AM

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Certain rxn's are very sensitive. This may be one although it is hard to say. Temperature, water contaminants, type of peppermint, any impurities in the entire rxn.
 
narmz
#4 Posted : 6/8/2009 7:28:43 AM

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How hot can the piping hot water be without destroying the LSA?
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69ron
#5 Posted : 6/8/2009 9:01:30 AM

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narmz wrote:
How hot can the piping hot water be without destroying the LSA?


As long as you don't boil the LSA for like 10 minutes or more, it should fine even in boiling water. LSA decomposes at 242 C and water boils at 100 C. But even so, it can't withstand being boiled for too long, it does eventually break down.

SWIM has found that boiling water just taken off the stove top will not destroy the LSA as long as you let it cool down. But leaving LSA in continuously boiling water will eventually destroy all of it.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
narmz
#6 Posted : 6/8/2009 9:13:49 AM

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How many micrograms of LSA are typically present in a single HBWR seed?
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69ron
#7 Posted : 6/8/2009 9:30:02 AM

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1008 wrote:
Does SWIY give the same amount of time for the reaction each time? It consistently worked for SWIM, but when SWIM gave some to his friends without giving much time for the reaction (~5min), they reported feeling "tired" and other LSA like effects.


He uses the exact same procedure every time and sometimes it just doesn't work. SWIM is baffled. It either works or doesn't. There seems to be no middle ground.

1008 wrote:
SWIM put HBWR extact into a 50ml bottle of peppermint schnapps and it worked 5 out of 5 times so far. This suggests that the problem is an inconsistency in the preparation, not storage conditions (eg temperature) or human body chemistry.


What a brilliant idea! Peppermint Schnapps is perfect.

Well when SWIM has used rum it worked 100% of the time. It's when he uses peppermint tea that he gets this problem where it sometimes doesn't work at all, and other times works perfectly.

1008 wrote:
In another thread somewhere you recommended not storing the extract, but that bottle has been stored at room temperature in low light condition for weeks and still works fine. Was that just a precaution, or does SWIY have evidence that it does degrade slowly yet appreciably?


According to Albert Hofmann, LSH is extremely unstable and breaks down into LSA and acetaldehyde over time. I don't recall him mentioning which conditions caused this but apparently even in the seeds LSH breaks down into LSA and acetaldehyde making older seeds very sedating. That's the theory anyway.

So, yes, that was just a precautionary statement based on words from Albert Hofmann. I believe in solution it should be stable, but when out of solution it will decompose. But I really don't know. This is not based on SWIM's experience. He hasn't tried making LSH and drying it ever.

XLogP3 of various alkaloids
0.7 Mescaline
1.2 Bufotenine
1.5 5-MeO-DMT
1.6 LSA
1.9 LSH
2.5 DMT

So you should be able to easily separate LSH from LSA. LSH is a lot less polar and is probably soluble in heptane while LSA is probably not. Or you could easily separate them using column chromatography.

At some point SWIM would like to isolate LSH and test it, but he just doesn't have the time right now.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#8 Posted : 6/8/2009 9:35:20 AM

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narmz wrote:
How many micrograms of LSA are typically present in a single HBWR seed?


HBWR are typically 0.136% LSA by weight. 1 seed weighs about 105 mg, so that's 142.8 micrograms of LSA per seed. But they also contain other alkaloids.
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I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
narmz
#9 Posted : 6/12/2009 3:54:27 PM

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SWIM took 6 HBWR seeds ground up, mixed with 5 caps full of peppermint extract, and let sit in the fridge for 6 hours. It was then moved to his car, where it sat for a day, and then back into his house where it sat in the fridge for another 2 days. Anyhow, SWIM finally decided to split this with his wife, and they experienced very strong vasoconstriction, lack of energy, and strong drowsiness, they fell asleep for a good 4-5 hours in the middle of the day.
Anyhow, SWIM thinks maybe he made a mistake waiting so long to take it, and leaving it in his car for a day, where it may have changed back into LSA? Anyhow, was not the most pleasant experience, will possibly try again if he discovers a sure-fire way to make the reaction work, maybe Rum?
Everything I post is made up fiction. SWIM represents a character who is not based in or on reality.
 
69ron
#10 Posted : 6/13/2009 5:00:20 AM

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SWIM is a fan of this reaction, but it just doesn't always work. When it works, you’ll know it for sure because LSH makes you hyper not drowsy, and its way more trippy.

Rum or sherry wine seems to always work.

Fresh peppermint tea seems to work more reliably than peppermint oil or peppermint extract. SWIM is not sure why.

Try soaking in hot tea made from 2 tablespoons of peppermint tea. Soak for at least 1 hour. 24 hours in the refrigerator is usually better.
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Thanatananda23
#11 Posted : 6/14/2009 11:26:41 PM

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Does anyone know whether the constituents that addle the stomach with ugly bugginess are similar in both HBWR and Morning Gloria's? Also, recall reading somewhere that Hoffman once ate over 1000 seeds, has a LD-50 ever been determined for LSA?

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Seven
#12 Posted : 6/17/2009 8:10:00 PM

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Swim saw people mentioning adding lemon juice to acidify the water(CWE), would this step be needed if making a Peppermint tea to soak the seeds in? Swim also saw some teks with varying seed soaking times, one said 20 mins others 4-6 hours. Seeing ron suggested an overnight soak, Swim will try that out. Is it possible for the lsh to turn back into lsa by soaking too long? Is 600 MG seeds a good dose to work with?
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Thanatananda23
#13 Posted : 6/17/2009 10:56:13 PM

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Ron, inceptively you refer to a 250 microgram dose of LSA. How does one approximate a microgram dosing unless one has extracted, or are you going by content of alkaloids and number of seeds used?

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69ron
#14 Posted : 6/18/2009 4:44:53 AM

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SWIM's is extracted and purified white LSA tartrate crystals. He had help from a friend who isolated the LSA from the other alkaloids, but he did the alkaloid extraction himself. He made a glycerin tincture out of it with vitamin C added as an antioxidant. It's been kept at room temperature in an amber bottle for over 2 years now and still works very well.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Phlux-
#15 Posted : 6/18/2009 6:03:50 AM

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any chance of sharing that extraction tek - swim would love to try it.
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IT IS ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE WILLING TO EXPOSE OURSELVES OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO ANNIHILATION THAT WE DISCOVER THAT PART OF OURSELVES THAT IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.


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69ron
#16 Posted : 6/18/2009 7:36:31 AM

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SWIM has all the info for the alkaloid extraction and purification except for the LSA isolation step at the end which involved column chromatography. That last part was done by a friend of SWIM's and he didn't keep notes on how it was done and doesn't know how to do it himself.

Quote:
The alkaloid extraction was done in a 1000 ml Soxhlet using 600 ml of acetone. 23 grams of coarsely ground Argyreia nervosa seeds (102 seeds) were put into a glass extraction thimble placed in the Soxhlet. The acetone was boiled and cycled through the Soxhlet for 3 1/2 hours for a total of 11 siphons (i.e., 11 automatic extractions with boiling hot acetone).

Next, the acetone was distilled down 50 ml, and then 100 ml of water was added to it.

The pH of the solution was measured and found to be around 5. The pH is adjusted to 3 with citric acid.

The solution is defatted 8 times with 50 ml DCM. The solutions can be shaken vigorously without an emulsion forming. The first defat produces a light tan water layer and an amber DCM layer. By the 4th defat both layers are colorless. We do 8 defats to be sure all the toxins are removed.

Next we adjust the pH to 9 with sodium carbonate. The water layer is extracted with 50 ml DCM 5 times.

Next we distill the DCM with the freebase LSA (and other alkaloids) in it. We distill down to 50 ml and then evaporate the rest of the DCM in a shallow pan. The extract becomes light tannish yellow and it evaporates away. Once dry it amounts to 72 mg (about a 0.3 % yield).

At this point the extract is probably 90% pure alkaloids, most of which is freebase LSA. It's impure, tannish yellow and slightly sticky but extremely potent.

You'll want to make a salt out of it. LSA tartrate is recommended.

There are several cleanup steps that can be done, but all seem to greatly diminish yields. So I'm not sure if they're really worth it.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Phlux-
#17 Posted : 6/18/2009 8:02:25 AM

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thank u for that - it looks very adaptable and loose, perhaps a nice natural tek is about to emerge Smile what else other than dcm can swim use - ?
antrocles wrote:
...purity of intent....purity of execution....purity of experience...

...unlike the "blind leading the blind". we are more akin to a group of blind-from-birth people who have all simultaneously been given the gift of sight but have no words or mental processing capabilites to work with this new "gift".

IT IS ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE WILLING TO EXPOSE OURSELVES OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO ANNIHILATION THAT WE DISCOVER THAT PART OF OURSELVES THAT IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.


Quote:
‹Jorkest› the wall is impenetrable as far as i can tell


Quote:
‹xtechre› cheese is great


He who packs ur capsules - controls your destiny.

 
69ron
#18 Posted : 6/18/2009 5:51:44 PM

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That's a good question. D-limonene might work instead of DCM. I know that naphtha doesn’t work because it’s not polar enough.
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I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
narmz
#19 Posted : 6/26/2009 1:24:25 AM

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Does LSA have stronger vasoconstriction effects than LSH? Are there other alkaloids in HBWR which also cause vasoconstriction? If LSA is soluble in water, could one not just do a cold water extraction (what else is extracted with a cold water extraction, toxins?), evap, and salt in the same way to get a fairly pure product? Could IPA be used instead of Acetone for the initial extraction in the soxhlet?

The LSA tincture SWIY made that has lasted so long, what are the effects like? SWIM would like to know what very pure LSA is like compared to the reports of those who have taken ground seeds or done a CWE.
Everything I post is made up fiction. SWIM represents a character who is not based in or on reality.
 
69ron
#20 Posted : 6/26/2009 2:00:12 AM

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narmz wrote:
Does LSA have stronger vasoconstriction effects than LSH?


LSA and LSH both cause vasoconstriction. LSA seems to have stronger vasoconstriction effects, but SWIM is basing this off of his own tests, not scientific research. LSH also causes bronchial constriction (proven in lab tests on animals). LSA doesn't seem to cause bronchial constriction for SWIM, but LSH does at high doses.

narmz wrote:
Are there other alkaloids in HBWR which also cause vasoconstriction?


Yes there is at least one, and it's a stronger vasoconstrictor. I forget what it's called though.

narmz wrote:
If LSA is soluble in water, could one not just do a cold water extraction (what else is extracted with a cold water extraction, toxins?), evap, and salt in the same way to get a fairly pure product?


No, too much other junk will be extracted. That's why an A/B extraction is needed. Possibly another type of tech might work, but I haven't seen one yet.

narmz wrote:
Could IPA be used instead of Acetone for the initial extraction in the soxhlet?


Probably. SWIM has not tried it though.

narmz wrote:
The LSA tincture SWIY made that has lasted so long, what are the effects like? SWIM would like to know what very pure LSA is like compared to the reports of those who have taken ground seeds or done a CWE.


LSA is dreamy and sedating. It makes you feel heavy, tired, like you're totally out of energy. It's mildly psychedelic and euphoric. There are some mild visual effects to it. It's great for insomnia. I can't see anyone really liking it as a psychedelic. It's great for inducing dreams. SWIM likes taking it at night before bed. It will induce tons of dreams and allow you to sleep really easily. Very high doses are psychedelic, but the heavy sedated feeling and the vasoconstriction is just unpleasant.

I don't think LSA has much at all to do with the effects of HBWR or any other similar seed. I think the magic you get from the seeds is from the presence of LSH in combination with the LSA. LSH is more unstable. If you've noticed, fresh seeds are more stimulating and psychedelic, while very old seeds make you sleepy and do little else. LSH decomposes into LSA, so as the seeds age, they contain more LSA and less LSH.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
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