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1992
#161 Posted : 8/10/2010 8:23:28 AM

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How about a solution of dmt in supercritical nitrous oxide pressurized at a very soft, low pressure in a glass container and shot through a paint gun into ones lungs?

Rumor has it that nebulizers work great for 4 subbed tryptamines though
 

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Infundibulum
#162 Posted : 8/10/2010 9:04:38 AM

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1992 wrote:
How about a solution of dmt in supercritical nitrous oxide pressurized at a very soft, low pressure in a glass container and shot through a paint gun into ones lungs?

Rumor has it that nebulizers work great for 4 subbed tryptamines though

This is a potentially great idea . Maybe supercritical CO2 can be used in a similar way of a more neutral gas is required. But on the other hand inhaling CO2 gives a suffocation feeling that is neither pleasant nor safe.

The one problem I foresee is that with either nitrous or CO2, it needs to transit from liquid to gas before it it gets inhaled, aka vapor state and i don't see how dmt would carry over. Sort of dmt can dissolve in supercritical nitrous, but when nitrous boils off the dmt will stay behind.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
1992
#163 Posted : 8/11/2010 4:36:49 AM

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I'm not sure of the exact mechanics behind a paint sprayer but I was saying filling the container with the nitrous while still in the supercritical phase and and putting around air to bring the pressure around 5-6 psi.

I don't think such liquid would affect the solubility of dmt into the sc n2o but at the same time idk if that would be enough pressure to provide force to push the solution through the paint sprayer in a way that it would come out like a mist.

All in all it was a shot in the dark haha but hey it could potentially provide enough dmt in the correct time frame as opposed to a nebulizer but like I said I don't know any specific mechanics behind a paint sprayer except that they can, granted enough pressure, spray a liquid like a mist.

And like you said, I don't know a real whole lot about sc n2o outside the fact that its a great solvent for amines and i have no idea if passing it through a paint gun would cause the dmt to drop out of solution.
 
SKA
#164 Posted : 10/12/2010 1:52:48 PM
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+Revive


So has anyone actually tried to nebulize DMT in solution?
Seems very interresting indeed.

I recall antrocles has ordered and received the ultrasonic nebulizer.
Any test results yet?

This great idea must not be forgotten and left to catch dust.
 
SWIMfriend
#165 Posted : 5/12/2011 9:28:50 PM

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Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread. Seems there are some interesting ideas. My latest thoughts on nebulizing:

1) One problem I meant to address by the topic is dosing: Few people other than very experienced vaporizers seem able to a) get the exact dose they would LIKE to get, b) get a LARGE dose (as large as they would like to get) in ONE INHALATION.

2) The ideal molecule for the attempt is DMT-acetate, because of its extreme solubility in water: a decently-sized dose could potentially be fully dissolved in 5-10 drops of water.

3) One might ALSO dissolve DMT freebase in alcohol. I wouldn't think that 5-10 drops of alcohol would too terribly change the experience.

4) One PROBLEM with even the best nebulizers is that they do not produce inhaleable droplets FAST ENOUGH (more or less) to get an entire dose in one breath. This problem might be easy to overcome by making one's own nebulizer. Piezoelectric transducers are available in a wide range of sizes and are quite cheap. One could also structure several transducers in a array, putting a couple of drops on each one.

5) What I'm hoping is a easier solution would be to make a "plunger/shotgun" type of apparatus. Say a foot-long piece of 4 inch diameter pipe, with a plunger (with a silicone seal around its edge?). The apparatus is then filled with a standard nebulizer--taking however long it takes--and then put to the mouth and the plunger pushed, "injecting" the entire contents into the lungs. Most people can very EASILY inhale 2 liters into empty lungs (most could do 3 liters).

Theoretically then, it seems quite plausible for even very large doses of DMT-acetate (say, for example 70mg.) to be dissolved in a small quantity of water (say 10 drops--probably < 0.5 ml), and for that to be nebulized into a chamber of 2-3 liters in volume (already filled with air), and then plunged/injected into the lungs all in one inhalation.

I don't think inhaling microscopic droplets comprised of 10 drops would be a hardship. The pros are:

1) You're not inhaling hot, or burnt, material--and you know EXACTLY what you're inhaling (if your sample is pure)
2) Your dose will be EXACTLY what you plan for it to be (after titrating for losses from the system)
3) You WILL get the exact dose you want in a SINGLE INHALATION, without fail.
4) You could easily add small quantities of "essential oils," or other things that could be soothing to the lungs, OR add interesting molecules that aren't usually vaporized, such as psilocybin or mescaline (or utilize those molecules exclusively).
5) You would have zero worries regarding flames, hot things, and losing physical control.
6) You would not suffer the added psychological pressure of worrying whether your technique will dose you as you plan to.

Cons:

1) DMT-acetate is slightly trickier to work with. This wouldn't be a huge problem if one can simply use the technique of dissolving DMT freebase in 5-10 drops of vinegar (acetic acid), and confirming that such a mixture wouldn't be unpleasant to inhale.
2) The issue of delivery waste is so far unknown (but I plan to work on this): What percentage of nebulize droplets will stick to the walls of the apparatus, and be lost? Is there a way to modify the quantity (like, for example, coating the inside of the apparatus with petroleum jelly, etc.)? I'd like to do some experiments say, with acid-base-titrations, of beginning with precise quantities, capturing after "plunging," (say, in gauze), and then titrating what was captured to determine loss figures....and similar experiments. When I have answers to these issues (which will be AT LEAST several months), I will post them.
 
Ice
#166 Posted : 7/6/2011 8:58:00 PM
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I'm not sure if this idea has come up, but i was thinking something like this:

----------/------/-------------/---/
----------/------/-------------/---/
The first section would contain 3-4 sections of 10micron mesh. The second would hold the solution. The third and fourth sections would hold compressed air. When the valve is released the force of the the air would shred the solution against the screen.

While researching parts to maybe work on a prototype or something, I came across this patent.
http://www.google.com/pa...s/about?id=Mb4aAAAAEBAJ

From what I understand there would be a stream of air blowing through the fine mesh, and the liquid solution would be dropped into the air stream.
We are...
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We are not finished.
 
SWIMfriend
#167 Posted : 7/7/2011 2:52:04 AM

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There are variations possible. My idea of actually using a nebulizer (and "storing" the products of it in a chamber which one then "shotgun/plunges" to take a full dose in one breath) is that nebulizers have been DESIGNED by engineers to produce the ideal droplets for inhalation. So I thought I should avoid trying to "reinvent the wheel" and just use what has already been designed.

The task is to make it efficient (little product loss) and relatively easy. Doing that will just require sufficient "fiddling" with variables/tests...
 
Ice
#168 Posted : 7/7/2011 4:39:52 PM
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Quote:
DESIGNED by engineers


Good thing I'm on my way to having an engineering degree... Pleased haha.

Have you begun any of your tests?
While sitting in the chamber, would it be possible for the mist to begin, for lack of a better word, reintegrating? I mean, is there a possibility that the droplets will reform into droplets too big to be inhaled into the lungs without coughing it all up?

We are...
We are like that sentence.
We are not finished.
 
Egzoset
#169 Posted : 12/11/2011 2:06:51 AM

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Is a Mist Maker the same as a "nebulizer"?

Wut?
 
closet-chemist1010
#170 Posted : 11/5/2012 10:03:24 PM

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hey guys! just a bump to this thread, i have been eyeing this one since i joined here, as i have a very sensitive throat, as i am a non smoker, and even have a hard time with MJ its near impossible for me to breakthrough, i'd love to hear from antrocles, if he ever ended up doing any tests. its been a long time since ive posted and im glad to see you back swimfriend! hope this goes somewhere!

PS i have some spice which is about a year old, i may try the everclear idea and see how much ethanol it takes to dissolve a 30mg dose of dmt freebase, during any free time i have!
 
SWIMfriend
#171 Posted : 11/6/2012 12:31:30 AM

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closet-chemist1010 wrote:
hey guys! just a bump to this thread, i have been eyeing this one since i joined here, as i have a very sensitive throat, as i am a non smoker, and even have a hard time with MJ its near impossible for me to breakthrough, i'd love to hear from antrocles, if he ever ended up doing any tests. its been a long time since ive posted and im glad to see you back swimfriend! hope this goes somewhere!

PS i have some spice which is about a year old, i may try the everclear idea and see how much ethanol it takes to dissolve a 30mg dose of dmt freebase, during any free time i have!


Regarding DMT: The highest solubility is going to be DMT:Cl or DMT:acetate--both of which are very hygroscopic (i.e., they will not stay dry in typical room air). You should be able to get either, by dissolving DMT freebase in either hydrochloric acid or acetic acid (vinegar). A chemist will have to suggest portions, and offer advice on making sure one ends with ONLY a simple salt--and nothing corrosive to inhale (you'll also want to test pH of any solution you intend to use--it may be necessary to add a tiny quantity of buffer.

Then, IMO, a 30 mg dose (or a bit more, considering the salt will be heavier than the freebase) SHOULD dissolve in a milliliter or even much less, I'm estimating (actually, I was thinking that 30 mg might well dissolve in just a few drops of distilled water--considering how hygroscopic the chloride and acetate salts are).

My plan at that point has always been to sonicate it into a container (2 liter bottle? 2-2 liter bottles glued together, to make a 3 liter or so tube?), and, with use of a plunger, allow for the dose to be taken in one inhalation. Doing it that way, it doesn't matter much how well the nebulizer works--just as long as it fills your chamber and it stays mostly nebulized until you inhale it.

Some things to keep in mind:

1) You will want to be VERY CAREFUL about cleanliness. There is the possibility of injecting into your lungs a load of bacteria (or mold) that you WOULDN'T WANT THERE. I'd make sure to AT LEAST wipe all surfaces well with 70% ethanol before proceeding. Such is not a problem with standard vaping.

2) You have to be sure about purity. You will get anything and everything you put in, that can dissolve in water. When you vape, you only get that which vaporizes at relatively low temperature--vaping itself is a purifying step (for some things, at least). Here again, you will get EVERYTHING you put in that can dissolve in water.

3) There is the possibility of overdose! When vaping freebase, it's generally accepted that if you have inhaled enough to lose control of your body you: a) are probably nicely at the breakthrough point, and b) still have well within the range of a safe dose. That's not necessarily going to be true with the above method. Depending on how concentrated a solution you make, how big a chamber you have made, and how much nebulized material you can get in the chamber, you might find it's theoretically possible to take abnormally large doses--maybe, like, 100 mg. This is likely to be a potential problem because almost all nebulizers are unable to nebulize everything in their reservoir (the nebulizer that antrocles has can come closer to that than any on the market--last I checked). People would end up filling up a reservoir with a certain concentration, and then filling their chamber to a certain point--and there will be more left in the reservoir. So there's the possibility of using too much. Careful experimentation would be necessary to learn how to gauge the dosage--but once you had that calibrated, you could reliably deliver exactly what you wanted.

Personally, I've lost some interest on this issue due to the utility people have found in changa (and there are some herbs--I think mullein is one--that are supposed to be especially soothing to the lungs and airways).

...but, maybe there's somebody out there who can ONLY use a nebulizer. It would be great to hear from them, and hear how it works for them...
 
Egzoset
#172 Posted : 11/7/2012 6:40:14 AM

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Salutations,

closet-chemist1010 wrote:
...i have a very sensitive throat, as i am a non smoker, and even have a hard time with MJ...


According to the initial post i gather there's probably a more suitable area where to share my own findings, not to mention that i consume nothing else but cannabis anyway. Yet i just wished to point out that i've experimented with fog conditioning and this seemed to help a great deal with coughing. But since that's significantly different from actually delivering the whole "medication" using ultrasonic waves (or whatever?) i suppose this is all i can relate here if i consider how the thread was launched.

That's the thing which bogs me most on DMT-Nexus, i must confess that i rarely feel like my favourite kind of content would fit anywhere. As a result i don't come to read often and this closes the loop... Yet DMT-Nexus sounds like a great place where original ideas can be debated with stimulating people apparently.

So, good luck with your quest! Smile
 
closet-chemist1010
#173 Posted : 1/12/2013 2:43:18 AM

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hey, sorry im short for time, but somebody mentioned dissolving spice in propylene glycol, this is the carrier which contains nicotine in E-cigs, and works great, and i believe is much greater than a solvent like ethanol, because ethanol that has been nebulized, will change states from liquid to gas very quickly and inhaling ethanol vapor can feel quite strange, PEG 400 is a great solvent for dmt, and can be nebulized very easily. just some food for thought, i am very interested in this thread as i have a very hard time inhaling even the smoothest dmt vapour
 
basilic
#174 Posted : 1/12/2013 12:46:13 PM

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closet-chemist1010 said:

Quote:
hey, sorry im short for time, but somebody mentioned dissolving spice in propylene glycol, this is the carrier which contains nicotine in E-cigs, and works great, and i believe is much greater than a solvent like ethanol, because ethanol that has been nebulized, will change states from liquid to gas very quickly and inhaling ethanol vapor can feel quite strange, PEG 400 is a great solvent for dmt, and can be nebulized very easily. just some food for thought, i am very interested in this thread as i have a very hard time inhaling even the smoothest dmt vapour


It would be an intersting way to take DMT if you have more infos it would be wonderful.Thumbs up
 
closet-chemist1010
#175 Posted : 2/14/2013 1:03:56 AM

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hey guys, closet chemist here, so ive done some research, and have purchased the nebulizer that was linked in the very first post of this thread, as it seems to be the best on the market at the moment, and one of very few that can atomize every last bit of liquid. also, most of the medications that are nebulized through this type on machine are being carried by a solvent called propylene glycol. propylene glycol is now also very widely used along with polyethylene glycol as nicotine and flavor solvents in E cigs.

so i have also picked up some PG(Propylene glycol) and PEG400(polyethylene glycol 400). i have read that PEG400 can solute DMT in a ratio of about 0.16g/ml. IF this is true, a 50mg dose can fit into a third of a ml, which the nebulizer can atomize in under a minute. i will have to experiment on actual solubility levels when my products arrive. i have no solubility data on the PG yet.

Because of the lack of knowledge about the efficiency of this type of method, caution will be taken and small doses will graduate to a full size dose in time.

I hope after all this time people still chime into this thread, as i feel i am close to the solution after a long time stalking this one Razz

PS, i ordered some unflavoured PEG400 and PG for initial tests, as they dont have valuable space between molecules to dissolve the spice taken up by flavouring, but i also ordered two flavours to dabble with if all goes as planned!
 
closet-chemist1010
#176 Posted : 3/2/2013 7:36:24 PM

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hey nexus, closet chemist here.

my solvents/carriers have arrived in the mail, i have 50ml of regular unflavored PG and PEG400. I also got 2 smaller vials of menthol and hazelnut flavored PEG400. i am looking forward to the menthol, but probably should have gotten watermelon or something crazy rather then the hazelnut.

i am still waiting for my ultrasonic nebulizer in the mail. then all i need is a syringe, to measure small amounts of solvent, so i can dose myself properly. i believe you can buy small 1ml syringes at local drugstores around here so i will pick one up someday soon. I hope everyone has not abandoned this thread, i believe were close! also some of those E-cig threads seem to have made it pretty far, i plan to do some more reading up on them this afternoon!
 
basilic
#177 Posted : 3/3/2013 12:14:51 PM

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Quote:
I hope everyone has not abandoned this thread,

No we are expecting your infos.Wut?
 
closet-chemist1010
#178 Posted : 3/6/2013 3:20:33 AM

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hey nexus!
so my most recent test involved polyethylene glycol 400, sold as Ecig fluid with a menthol flavouring. the menthol flavour/feeling is very strong, even when washing out the shot glass with hot water during cleanup, i could feel it slightly.

so this is how i started

ive read about dmt's solubility in PEG400 being somewhere close to 1g dmt/6ml PEG400.
to measure the solvent i used an insulin syringes, which have a maximum capacity of 1ml or 100 "units" each unit being 100th of a ml.

Because the nebulizer i purchased claims to nebulize the liquid inside completely with no leftover, i am trying to keep the volume of dmt containing solvent to a minimum, as to keep the nebulization time to a minimum, delivering the spice in the quickest way possible. this can be slowed down in the future if desired, but right now, were focused on speed of delivery.

I scaled out 100mg of spice, finely powdered, and placed it in a shotglass.
i filled my insulin syringe to the 60 units mark with polyethylene glycol 400.
starting with 30 units, i added the PEG400 to the DMT with stirring.
Heat was NOT added due to the fact that this product will usually be used at room temp and is no good if crystals start crashing out of solvent.
chunks of dmt remained and the solvent appeared to be more viscous.
The rest of the solvent was added in 10 unit increments with stirring untill all 60 units were added and small chucks remained.
I refrained from adding more solvent, but stired for several minuts and let stand for 30 mins.
When i returned the chunks were gone and the solvent seemed to have returned to its original viscosity.

Conclusion, the PEG 400 dissolved DMT well enough that a large enough dose can be delivered through a nebulizer in a relatively short time.

a little math for the brain before i go.

100mg/0.6 = 50mg/0.3ml = 25mg/0.15ml

nebulization rate of nebulizer : some sources say 0.25ml/minute, some say as high as 0.5ml/minute

25mg/0.15ml at a rate of 0.5ml/minute = 30 seconds
50mg/0.3ml at a rate of 0.25ml/minute = 1m 12s

with the high hopes that nebulization is an efficient ROA, it appears that one could fill a chamber such as a 2l pop bottle with a full dose in a time frame varying from 30 seconds to a about a minute depen,ding on dose size and actual nebulization rate. excuse me if my math is off, im very tired and just got my wisdom teeth taken out lol.

PS nebulizer has not arrived yet Sad
i thought i could add pics at diff points through my posts, so if it seems out of order, that would be why Razz
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closet-chemist1010
#179 Posted : 3/7/2013 11:37:22 PM

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so after having a lot of trouble contacting the "customer service" from the site i ordered, i found out my order has not been shipped yet because they are out of stock. im very dissapointed with their lack of customer service, and the fact that i had to wait until i was getting curious about where my package was, to inquire and find out it never left. i asked when they would next have one in stock and got no reply, my money was refunded and i am now looking for another source for this same nebulizer.

sorry to keep ya waiting nexus Sad
hopefully have one on its way to me soon!

EDIT************

i have purchased the same neb from another site. they should contact me tomorrow with available shipping options. hopefully back in business =D
its actually hard to find places that will ship these to canada that dont have a $300+ price tag :s
 
embracethevoid
#180 Posted : 3/12/2013 1:15:12 AM

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If you use a nebulizer keep in mind that over 50% of goods are lost when vaporising or smoking; if there is zero loss then you would need much less product to attain a specific state.


Honestly, could we not just skip this whole process and use a $1 spray mist atomiser?

If the droplets are too large, can't we have them sitting around in the lungs and dissolving and then getting absorbed? The lungs are a damp environment, any droplet would lose its surface tension energy very fast.


What's 30 seconds vs say a minute or two longer, really? It's not like you're running late for a hyperspace meeting or anything Razz.



Drop infused PEG-400 into one of these and huff and puff till your house blows down




I'll hopefully try it with some harmala extract, could be a brilliant means of administration. All you're practically doing is huffing something that will soon be phlegm.


Perhaps a breathing action might minimise the droplet size when it's already in the lungs, massaging it into the membranes. Huff a few puffs, then hyperventilate for a minute, taking care to feel it oozing into your cells and pulling in harder and harder on the inhale. I'm vaping stuff right now and I notice that if I take a hit, then huff in again, it feels like it really is pushing it all in deeper.



Suppose I were to do this. I am thinking of harmala citrate in water, how does that sound? Is citrate a bad idea to inhale? Hold my watch and beer this.
 
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