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A new, important idea--must read! Options
 
SWIMfriend
#21 Posted : 6/6/2009 12:23:25 AM

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amor_fati wrote:
SWIMfriend wrote:
Great to hear that! Have you tried to dissolve any DMT to see how soluble it is? We do know that DMT-freebase will not dissolve well in water...


SWIM's not positive about this, but he would guess that if DMT fumarate is safe by IV, it may be safe in the lungs...he's certainly no doctor.


I can think of ABSOLUTELY no reason it wouldn't be safe. We're talking about very small amounts here, so I don't think even pH is an issue. IF solubility was really easy then one could use sterile saline as the solvent in stead of distilled water. Sterile saline (as you might buy as contact lens wash) would probably be buffered to around pH 6-7.
 

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SWIMfriend
#22 Posted : 6/6/2009 12:27:37 AM

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warrensaged wrote:
...I now remember reading that it takes 12ml of water to dissolve 1g of DMT-FumarateConfused
So how does that divide out into individual doses?...


Roughly, 70mg of DMT-fumarate contains as much DMT as 50mg of DMT-freebase. 12ml * 0.07 = 0.84ml (about 17 drops of water). That would work (although I'd personally prefer to see it around 10 drops of water).
 
Garulfo
#23 Posted : 6/6/2009 12:42:16 AM

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Can't way to know the result of SWIY test !
Freebased DMT could be soluble in some essential oils like eucalyptus, menthol. That would be a nice way to breaktrought Smile !
 
Garulfo
#24 Posted : 6/6/2009 1:12:33 AM

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From what I see from articles about this devices, great care must be taken about cleaning them, because bacterias may enjoy small sources of liquids.
This is not a problem with the classic heated devices.
Also I'm not sure that essential oils are good to inhale directly. There is one oil suggested for bronchia : Melaleuca viridiflora. Don't know if it can dissolve DMT.
 
tryptographer
#25 Posted : 6/6/2009 1:15:14 AM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
I can think of ABSOLUTELY no reason it wouldn't be safe.

How about sterility issues? The heat is skipped, inhaling cool unsterilized mist deep into the lungs might be not a good idea without some extra precautions???
It's an interesting idea and hats off, but it may require some extra steps to make it completely safe (use sterile solutions etc). Or am I over-cautious, thinking Legionella, mould spores...??)

But it's a great idea, I'd like to experience an inhaled psilocin mist, thanks!
 
SWIMfriend
#26 Posted : 6/6/2009 1:24:43 AM

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tryptographer wrote:
SWIMfriend wrote:
I can think of ABSOLUTELY no reason it wouldn't be safe.

How about sterility issues? The heat is skipped, inhaling cool unsterilized mist deep into the lungs might be not a good idea without some extra precautions???
It's an interesting idea and hats off, but it may require some extra steps to make it completely safe (use sterile solutions etc). Or am I over-cautious, thinking Legionella, mould spores...??)

But it's a great idea, I'd like to experience an inhaled psilocin mist, thanks!


The idea of bacteria occurred to me...but I'm not too worried about it--you're inhaling water vapor with bacteria on it ALL DAY LONG--as well as COUNTLESS other gunk--possibly including some tiny multicellular organisms, and certainly countless mold spores. It has been shown, for example, that each time you flush a toilet you create a CLOUD of toilet-bacteria laden air that comes straight up from the toilet toward you! Sounds nice when using a public toilet, doesn't it...

I think using standard distilled water (or, of course, ethanol) would be fine. It probably wouldn't be a terrible idea to give a quick swab-out of the medicine chamber of the nebulizer unit with alcohol before use--although people who actually use these things for their medications don't even bother doing that.
 
deedle-doo
#27 Posted : 6/6/2009 3:43:17 AM

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tryptographer wrote:

How about sterility issues? The heat is skipped, inhaling cool unsterilized mist deep into the lungs might be not a good idea without some extra precautions???
It's an interesting idea and hats off, but it may require some extra steps to make it completely safe (use sterile solutions etc). Or am I over-cautious, thinking Legionella, mould spores...??)

But it's a great idea, I'd like to experience an inhaled psilocin mist, thanks!


Yeah, there lots of bacteria and fungi in water that are not usually present in the air. Using 70% ethanol would totally allay these concerns.

Great idea SF!!!
 
bufoman
#28 Posted : 6/6/2009 4:12:12 AM

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DMT fumarate even if taken to the lung tissue will likely be slow to absorb and distribute as absorption is of the un-ionized form. Although it is worth a shot it may work you never know. One possibility is that it may take a while to come on.... this may be a problem as the initial elevated plasma concentrations are required for strong effects.

Ethanol would def be okay. As SWIMFREIND said it is not uncommon for people to inhale vaporized ethanol. This would likely be the best bet as essential oils may be nice occasionally but there may be potential adverse effects. Maybe not though I dn't know too much about it....

This would be really neat if this works out. SWIM has found that water filtering DMT freebase smoothes it out tremendously. SWIM should try this out in the mean time....
 
Drake
#29 Posted : 6/6/2009 4:15:56 AM

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Remember how I sead I taken note of only a number of people on these forums? You being one of them, and for good reason! I like the idea of water going into my lungs rather then alcohol. It might be fine for shorter term use, even medium term. But what of Long term? I feel water is the safest! But that's just me, you know I am a paranoid health fanatic!

It will be interesting to see how it all comes together!
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dimitrius_rexus
#30 Posted : 6/6/2009 4:28:24 AM
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dreamed about this ages ago when SWIM first encountered the spice but never got around to trying it as the smoking method worked just fine. actually completely forgot about it. SWIM should go hunt out their bro's old nebulizer.

great idea swimfriend! i cant wait to hear the results. i would tell SWIM to try but they are on spice conservation mode at the moment.

would dissolving freebase in dH2O end up converting it to some form of salt? would that make 95% EtOH a better carrier? id guess alcohol by itself would absorb faster than water into lungs.
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SWIMfriend
#31 Posted : 6/6/2009 5:54:00 AM

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dimitrius_rexus wrote:
...would dissolving freebase in dH2O end up converting it to some form of salt?...


freebase has extremely low solubility in water--I think about 1-2mg/ml. If freebase were used it would have to be dissolved in alcohol.

From what bufoman is saying, it seems like freebase would be the way to go--although it would DEFINITELY be worth trying fumarate in water, because fumarate is a better way to store DMT.

Regarding the idea of slower absorption of the ionic form of DMT...it's a question that would have to be considered. Certainly, there's nothing slow about it in terms of crossing the BB barrier: Strassman got consistent breakthroughs with IV--and even that at about half the doses used for smoking. I would still place my bet on fast absorption of the ionic form through the lungs. Lung absorption works MUCH differently than buccal, nasal, or anal mucosal tissue absorption.
 
69ron
#32 Posted : 6/7/2009 3:43:04 AM

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I've looked into this before. It will definitely work, the problem is that the dosage will be spread out over several minutes from what I've heard and so if using DMT with it you're likely going to need 1000 mg or more of DMT for it to be effective because you're going to build tolerance to it while inhaling it.

Maybe these things have improved since I last looked at them for use with legal drugs, but that was the number 1 drawback and why I never bought one. It seemed like only super potent drugs work well with them.
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antrocles
#33 Posted : 6/7/2009 3:59:27 AM

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69ron wrote:
I've looked into this before. It will definitely work, the problem is that the dosage will be spread out over several minutes from what I've heard and so if using DMT with it you're likely going to need 1000 mg or more of DMT for it to be effective because you're going to build tolerance to it while inhaling it.

Maybe these things have improved since I last looked at them for use with legal drugs, but that was the number 1 drawback and why I never bought one. It seemed like only super potent drugs work well with them.



....and DMT would be a .....?? lol!! Laughing

on a side note: does anyone remember that scene in "minority report" when tom cruise's character gets home, pops a cartridge into his inhaler/nebulizer, takes a hit and then watches his holographic photo album of his departed wife and child?

....just sayin'.....i think nebulizin' gonna be THE WAY...



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SWIMfriend
#34 Posted : 6/7/2009 4:19:33 AM

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69ron wrote:
I've looked into this before. It will definitely work, the problem is that the dosage will be spread out over several minutes from what I've heard and so if using DMT with it you're likely going to need 1000 mg or more of DMT for it to be effective because you're going to build tolerance to it while inhaling it.

Maybe these things have improved since I last looked at them for use with legal drugs, but that was the number 1 drawback and why I never bought one. It seemed like only super potent drugs work well with them.


Right. Rate of delivery is going to be a central issue. With the nebulizer I initially linked to, a key element is that you can use a very small amount of liquid. It becomes a numbers game.

1) Either the DMT (fumarate in water, or freebase in alcohol) turns out to be reasonably soluble--so you can dissolve a full dose in 7-10 drops of solvent (and thus inhale it all in around 1 minute or less). OR...

2) We consider using other means along the same lines. Today I've been looking at ultrasonic air humidifiers. They do EXACTLY the same thing--except at a FAR higher rate (of course! Creating fog only at the rate of a nebulizer wouldn't work very well for humidifying an entire room). Nebulizers produce at about the rate of 1ml/minute--60ml/hour, which would mean they would put out about 1.5 liters in a 24 hour period. I think the room humidifiers could be expected to put out a gallon or more in 24 hours.

I will buy a nebulizer first (the one I linked to), and see if it can be used with 10 or so drops of solution. If that doesn't work, I'll try a room humidifier, and see if I can arrange to load a small amount of liquid (1-2 ml) into its chamber.

The solubility of ordinary table salt is 360mg/ml of water. That means you can dissolve 50 mg. of table salt into only THREE DROPS of water at room temperature.
 
Trips
#35 Posted : 6/7/2009 4:33:18 AM
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I must say, I don't think this is feasible. I've previously used a nebulizer and a home built nebulizer (from a fog fountain) and found that even a half ounce of alcohol took a solid 20 minutes to inhale. Interesting idea though.

I think the next big movement is in needleless injections. Haha, just require purification techniques and a really good filter.

Check out this badboy!

http://www.healthchecksystems.com/medijector.htm
 
SWIMfriend
#36 Posted : 6/7/2009 4:39:47 AM

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Trips wrote:
I must say, I don't think this is feasible. I've previously used a nebulizer and a home built nebulizer (from a fog fountain) and found that even a half ounce of alcohol took a solid 20 minutes to inhale.


We will be using about ONE THIRTIETH of an ounce (actually, I hope to use ONE SIXTIETH) which, by the rate you give, would take slightly more than one minute, or less than a minute with 1/60th ounce.
 
SWIMfriend
#37 Posted : 6/7/2009 4:53:58 AM

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Trips wrote:
....I think the next big movement is in needleless injections. Haha, just require purification techniques and a really good filter.

Check out this badboy!

http://www.healthchecksystems.com/medijector.htm


These would not work for our purposes, unfortunately. The injection is only subcutaneous--very slow absorption.
 
69ron
#38 Posted : 6/7/2009 5:07:48 AM

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I'd buy one if I had spare money. I'm sure if it doesn’t work as well as we'd all like, at least it would be good for delivering certain medications so it wouldn't be a total waste of money.

SWIM initially looked into these as a possible alternative method of inhaling bufotenine. For SWIM, pure white freebase bufotenine (not the impure amber or yellowish stuff) is extremely powerful at 10 mg smoked and able to give SWIM fantastic visions. The problem is getting 10 mg to dissolve in a solvent that can be nebulized fast enough for it to work. I looked at all the nebulizers, their flow rates, and it just didn’t seem like it was going to work. It would be great for something like LSD or hyoscyamine in which the dose needed is really small or for things that can be slowly inhaled over the course of several minutes like psilocybin without it affecting the potency much.

With DMT, you start getting tolerance to it after the first inhalation, so you can’t keep inhaling it over and over. It just doesn’t seem like it’s going to work. It would work better for bufotenine because with that it takes many minutes before tolerance starts building up.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#39 Posted : 6/7/2009 5:38:14 AM

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You can get a decent ultrasonic nebulizer these days for about $70. It's not that bad of a price.

It would be perfect for delivering LSA to avoid the body load, but it would have to be VERY PURE because it’s going directly into your lungs. Inhalation through the lungs is almost like injecting right into your blood. Unlike the stomach, there’s very little protection in your lungs against harmful compounds (that's why smoking impure bufotenine makes you ill while smoking pure bufotenine doesn’t).

Using a nebulizer, you really need to have very pure compounds or you could get quite sick from it. Imagine inhaling sodium hydroxide residue from badly made DMT! Ouch!

This would be GREAT FOR MESCALINE! You could probably avoid the body load completely. Unlike DMT, with mescaline it doesn’t matter if it takes many minutes to get all the alkaloids into your body.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
SWIMfriend
#40 Posted : 6/7/2009 5:39:09 AM

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I wish I knew more about solubility of the items of interest. Going by NaCl as an example, 50 mg of NaCl can dissolve in only THREE DROPS of water--which (three drops) could be easily nebulized into a single inhalation. I do not have spice available to check solubility (of either DMT-fumarate in water, or DMT-freebase in ethanol).

The nebulizer I linked to uses a new and unique nebulizing method--a titanium vibrating mesh. This produces finer particles (easier and deeper absorption), and is also setup to leave only a tiny residue un-nebulized: 0.1ml, or about 2 drops.

I feel certain that if a dose could dissolve in 10 or fewer drops, that this would work to administer a dose over 2-3 inhalations in a one minute period. This is easily made possible because it would not be necessary to HOLD a hit for more than a second or two--nebulizer droplets adhere to lung tissue almost immediately.
 
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