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A new, important idea--must read! Options
 
SWIMfriend
#1 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:02:44 PM

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I have a new idea for delivery by lung of DMT--that would ALSO work for psilocybin, mescaline, or practically ANYTHING else (hopefully, anyhow). I want to use this thread for brainstorming about the idea. I especially hope our local chemists will chime in.

Here's what got me interested in this: I'm older, out of shape, etc., and I worry that it might be difficult for me to get breakthrough doses of vaporized DMT freebase. This is mostly because REAL DMT vapor seems to take a good 10 seconds of holding it in the lungs before exhale, to get the vapor to adhere to lung tissue. What most people can do in 3 breaths I have an idea might take me 5--and if they don't get done within 1 1/2 minutes or so, then it's difficult reliably to get a breakthgough dose (at least that's how I understand it).

The idea is to use an ultrasonic nebulizer--which can deliver virtually ANY LIQUID (yes, even very thick liquids) at quite high speeds (note, if necessary, I COULD design one to produce "vapor" at even higher rates than typical medical nebulizers). The one I linked to is quite an expensive one, but it's cool because it nebulizes to the LAST DROP.

Some facts about nebulizers:

1) They do not HEAT the liquid. They "disrupt" the liquid by one of two methods, to create "droplets" of liquid that are LARGER than "vapor." A typical size for a droplet is 5 microns. Of the two methods "pressure" (most common) and "ultrasonic," I think ultrasonic would probbly be best for us (but the question is still open).
2) The important thing about the droplets is that they are LARGE (yet small enough to get deeply into the lungs), and they are COOL (room temperature). This means that a hit wouldn't need to be held in for more than a second or two (probably) for ALL the vapor to adhere to the lungs and not come out on an exhale.
3) You may have seen them used with a face mask--which would be very wasteful for our purposes. But they are also used with a mouthpiece--which is what we would use. It seems that using the nebulizer I linked to, with a mouthpiece, and turning it on in bursts, only to inhale (it has a simple on/off button), would deliver ALL the solution, with NO WASTE, in a short period of time. That particular machine delivers at the rate of about 1ml/minute (max). Others can deliver even faster. The MINIMUM amount of liquid that can be set up for delivery is 0.35ml--which is about 7 drops of liquid from an eyedropper.

Here are some particulars points of interest to me:

1) a milliliter of fluid (ml) is generally approximated as 20 drops from an eyedropper. An "average" estimate of the rate of delivery from these machines is about 1ml/minute (although that could be increased with custom design).
2) It could deliver ANY fluid: green dragon (tincture of cannabis produced from everclear), or ANY psychedelic that could be dissolved in any safe liquid. Distilled water is, of course, the safest. Pure ethanol (or everclear) would be safe: hopefully, we're talking about only 10-20 drops--you're not going to get drunk from 10-20 drops of alcohol. An ounce is approximately 30ml, btw.
3) It would be QUICKER and EASIER and HEALTHIER to use the nebulizer compared to any method of smoking or "heat vaporizing." "Taste" could be easily managed by adding a drop of your favorite flavoring agent, if that was desired.
4) DMT is considered the ULTIMATE psychedelic. But is that really accurate? There is very little experience out there regarding use of psilocybin or mescaline taken by IV or inhalation...and much of the reputation of DMT (I'm not counting ayahuasca) has been gained by its use through inhalation or IV (Strassman). IT MAY BE that if there were an easy way to get those other psychedelics into the lungs that they might produce powerful breakthrough experiences just as powerful as DMT! Who knows? I'm sure NOBODY KNOWS what the inhalation combination of DMT with one or both of those others would be like.

Solubility:

1) This is potentially a problem (if one is interested in inhaling at a FAST rate--for a full dose within a minute or so, for example). To give an encouraging example, regular table salt at room temperature has a solubility in water of 360mg/ml--which would be FAR MORE than we're looking for.

2) Water can be used. Alcohol can be used. It might be worth putting some thought into what OTHER solvents can be used. PLEASE DO NOT EXPERIMENT USING DIFFERENT SOLVENTS IN A NEBULIZER UNTIL IT'S CONFIRMED THAT THEY ARE SAFE!!

Some information I wouldn't mind having right now:

1) How many eyedropper drops of distilled water are necessary to dissolve about 70 mg. of DMT-fumarate?
2) How many drops of everclear (ethanol) are necessary to dissolve about 50 mg. of DMT-freebase?
3) What form is DMT-acetate? If it's liquid itself, it might be utilizable directly.
4) IMPORTANT NOTE: Nobody really knows if/how much DMT gets destroyed in "real world" high temperature vaporizing. We do know that NONE of it would be destroyed by nebulizing. It may be that nebulizer doses will be SMALLER than heat vaporized doses!

To make dissolving easier you might try:
1) Warming the solvent somewhat above room temperature
2) Pulverizing the DMT in a mortar/pestle

All thoughts on this topic will be appreciated, and potentially useful for everyone! Thanks!

FYI: Here is a video of a nice lady using her nebulizer. Note two important things: She is using a PRESSURE nebulizer, not an ultrasonic nebulizer. She is taking a HUGE amount of medicine (which she says takes 15 minutes). We will use FAR smaller amounts (but we would probably NOT use a pressure nebulizer). We would also turn off the nebulizer between inhales. Notice however, that after she does inhale she immediately exhales/begins to talk and no vapor comes out of her mouth.
 

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amor_fati
#2 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:31:12 PM

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SWIM's always wanted to administer DMT with an asthma inhaler, but it's never seemed realistic. That device you've posted there seems pretty handy. SWIM doesn't have the money to experiment with such an idea, but would love to hear any reports regarding this. It would be quite a step forward if it works.
 
SWIMfriend
#3 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:34:37 PM

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amor_fati wrote:
SWIM's always wanted to administer DMT with an asthma inhaler, but it's never seemed realistic. That device you've posted there seems pretty handy. SWIM doesn't have the money to experiment with such an idea, but would love to hear any reports regarding this. It would be quite a step forward if it works.


An aspect that's discouraging about "inhalers" is that they sometimes deliver their load only to the back of the throat. Often they don't produce as small a droplet/vapor as nebulizers--meaning the product does not get deeply into the lungs. One GOOD thing about inhalers is that they can easily deliver a LARGE dose. One difficult thing is that they usually come "pre-loaded" into special cannisters. I'm not sure how easily one could "manufacture" that for personal use with the produce of choice.
 
amor_fati
#4 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:36:28 PM

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DMT N-Oxide may be a good candidate for this.
 
antrocles
#5 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:38:18 PM

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don't worry guys....our dear SWIMfriend told me about this idea a while back and i have ordered said nebulizer. i have a good...no...GREAT feeling about this and will work with any of you smarties who have ideas on how best to use this baby. PM or use this thread to post ideas about how best to do this....i should be getting this baby sometime next week....

...and THANK YOU SWIMfriend for such a potentially REVELATORY breakthrough for....well...BREAKING THROUGH!! Very happy


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The Traveler
#6 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:42:27 PM

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This sounds like a great idea!

I see the freq of the nebulizer you posted is 180kHz. By coincidence I read a few days ago about a DIY nebulizer using a frequency generator and a piezo element, I have to look it up again and see if it is able to go to 180kHz (I think it's not thats big a deal).

In the meantime, I have a water mist fountain that works on the same principle as a medical nebulizer. I'll do some test with it like nebulizing different forms of DMT and let you know what my findings are.

 
WSaged
#7 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:51:00 PM

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Wow, this is a really cool idea!!

A bit expensive, but if it works well....Shocked

DMT-Fumarate is soluble is a pretty small amount of water!!
And I imagine .050mg would only take 2-4 eye droppers of water.

Nice!

WS
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SWIMfriend
#8 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:51:11 PM

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The Traveler wrote:
...In the meantime, I have a water mist fountain that works on the same principle as a medical nebulizer. I'll do some test with it like nebulizing different forms of DMT and let you know what my findings are...


FANTASTIC! I hadn't really even thought of "misting devices." Yes, there are room humidifiers that work on the same principle of ultrasonic nebulizing.

It would be great if the nebulizer I linked worked well, because it's apparently specially designed to fully utilize ALL the liquid you put in it--for absolutely no WASTE.

I KNOW this can be "custom made" to work--if standard nebulizer aren't up to the task. The main burning question for me now is what is the solubility of DMT-fumarate in distilled water, or DMT-freebase in ethanol. If those are high, then the nebulizer I linked to will work GREAT, and be the easiest and best think YET!

...and that's not even MENTIONING the pretty much UNKNOWN potential of inhaling solutions of psilocybin or mescaline.
 
SWIMfriend
#9 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:52:42 PM

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antrocles wrote:
...i have ordered said nebulizer....


Great to hear that! Have you tried to dissolve any DMT to see how soluble it is? We do know that DMT-freebase will not dissolve well in water...
 
SWIMfriend
#10 Posted : 6/5/2009 9:55:45 PM

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warrensaged wrote:
...DMT-Fumarate is soluble is a pretty small amount of water!!
And I imagine .050mg would only take 2-4 eye droppers of water...


If that's true then the WHOLE THING WORKS! I'm thinking about 10 drops of liquid would be easiest and nicest with the nebulizer I linked to--you should EASILY be able to get that down in a minute or less.

btw, there are MANY cheaper nebulizers (going down into the $30 range). The ONLY fault they might have is that there could be WASTE of product. But there may be ways AROUND THAT. I didn't put much thought into it after seeing that the linked to nebulizer promoted its special ability to nebulize down to the last drop--meaning, with a mouthpiece--no waste!
 
Jorkest
#11 Posted : 6/5/2009 10:02:27 PM

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sign me up!

its really not as expensive as i thought it would be...this may just be the answer!!!!
it's a sound
 
Aegle
#12 Posted : 6/5/2009 10:28:19 PM

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This is such an awesome idea SWIMfriend, very inspiring thank you for such a different and thought provoking idea Very happy


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The Traveler
#13 Posted : 6/5/2009 10:34:07 PM

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I made a sticky out of it since I think this is a great idea.

 
Observant
#14 Posted : 6/5/2009 10:49:15 PM

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I am also thinking about this route of Ingestion for some time now . I'm sure i am going to buy such a device if this should work .

DMT Freebase dissolves well in Ethanol - But Wouldnt it be Caustic for the Respiratory System if SWIM inhaled EtOH ?
(I always thought this.)
Do you think possible to vaporize DMT Fumarate? I doubt it ...
maybe dissolving the freebase in something oily - or playing with the ph of the water will lead to a solution

Since you are all being so positive about this - im also getting quite enthusiastic about a perfect new way to ingest the Spice. Can't wait till you post your Results Antrocles - it must work in some way !
But also be careful with your lungs Pleased
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Jorkest
#15 Posted : 6/5/2009 10:52:33 PM

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SWIM has always dreamed about taking inhaled dmt without going through the STRESS of vaporizing it..HOLDING IT IN...and then doing it again as you start to launch into hyperspace...its got to be the most stressful part of the whole thing...SWIM always thought of an inhaler..but this is just perfect..because if its possible to inhale dmt fumarate...then everything is solved
it's a sound
 
Phlux-
#16 Posted : 6/5/2009 11:03:46 PM

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cant wait to see some results - this is exciting, laying down with with an inhailer and a predetermined dose sounds preddy damn good.
antrocles wrote:
...purity of intent....purity of execution....purity of experience...

...unlike the "blind leading the blind". we are more akin to a group of blind-from-birth people who have all simultaneously been given the gift of sight but have no words or mental processing capabilites to work with this new "gift".

IT IS ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE WILLING TO EXPOSE OURSELVES OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO ANNIHILATION THAT WE DISCOVER THAT PART OF OURSELVES THAT IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.


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amor_fati
#17 Posted : 6/5/2009 11:08:53 PM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
Great to hear that! Have you tried to dissolve any DMT to see how soluble it is? We do know that DMT-freebase will not dissolve well in water...


SWIM's not positive about this, but he would guess that if DMT fumarate is safe by IV, it may be safe in the lungs...he's certainly no doctor.
 
WSaged
#18 Posted : 6/5/2009 11:22:42 PM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
warrensaged wrote:
...DMT-Fumarate is soluble is a pretty small amount of water!!
And I imagine .050mg would only take 2-4 eye droppers of water...


If that's true then the WHOLE THING WORKS! I'm thinking about 10 drops of liquid would be easiest and nicest with the nebulizer I linked to--you should EASILY be able to get that down in a minute or less.

btw, there are MANY cheaper nebulizers (going down into the $30 range). The ONLY fault they might have is that there could be WASTE of product. But there may be ways AROUND THAT. I didn't put much thought into it after seeing that the linked to nebulizer promoted its special ability to nebulize down to the last drop--meaning, with a mouthpiece--no waste!


If I remember correctly, when I've did a recrystallization of DMT-Fumarate using only water...room temp water too, that it only took like 20ml to more than completely dissolve 950mg of the Jungle Spice from the D-Limo/FASW tek.
That is jungle spice too, which has some extra, oilier compounds in it, that pure DMT has not.
I now remember reading that it takes 12ml of water to dissolve 1g of DMT-FumarateConfused
So how does that divide out into individual doses?

I also believe your right in thinking that it would take a smaller dose, due to heat vaporization more than likely burning off some of the dose, plus exhaling some of it.
DMT-Fumarate is also heavier...right? So right there its gonna be a smaller dose!!Very happy


Man, great idea!!
Wish I had the extra $$ laying around so I could try it. I'm gonna start researching cheaper versions of something like this. Even if the cheap ones have the face mask type inhaler, I'm sure one could attach some kind of mouth piece to it to reduce loss.


WS
All posts are fictional short stories depicting the adventures of WSaged!! None of these events have actually happened and any resemblance to any real persons or incidents is totally coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
SWIMfriend
#19 Posted : 6/6/2009 12:14:54 AM

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Observant wrote:
...DMT Freebase dissolves well in Ethanol - But Wouldnt it be Caustic for the Respiratory System if SWIM inhaled EtOH ?...(I always thought this.)...


Ethanol (alcohol in booze) would not be caustic. Not too long ago there was in fact a fad in American bars for inhaling alcohol this way.


Observant wrote:
...Do you think possible to vaporize DMT Fumarate? I doubt it ....


Anything in solution will "nebulize." This is not vaporization. Nebulization is just forcing water (and whatever is dissovled in it) into droplets so small they look like "fog."
 
SWIMfriend
#20 Posted : 6/6/2009 12:20:04 AM

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Jorkest wrote:
SWIM has always dreamed about taking inhaled dmt without going through the STRESS of vaporizing it..HOLDING IT IN...and then doing it again as you start to launch into hyperspace...its got to be the most stressful part of the whole thing...SWIM always thought of an inhaler..but this is just perfect..because if its possible to inhale dmt fumarate...then everything is solved


That's the best part of this. Because the droplets are relatively larger (and cooler) they will drop out in the lungs MUCH faster. It might be a good idea to hold for a second or two--but maybe just a natural and spontaneous exhale will work fine.

Inhalers would be cool TOO (in some way, maybe even better). The problem is that they usually come pre-loaded with the drug of interest. I've also heard that they're sometimes tricky to use--and you end up with a mouthful of product rather than a lungful. If the nebulizers turn out to not be ideal, I will investigate "customizing" inhalers somehow for use.
 
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