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Terence McKenna an FBI agent? No, not so much.. Options
 
DMTrickster
#1 Posted : 10/2/2013 5:02:32 AM

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New audio has been found of Terence saying that he was actually recruited by "the mushroom"--not the FBI. You can read the "Agent McKenna" debunking article here: Agent McKenna: Debunked!
 

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universecannon
#2 Posted : 10/2/2013 5:10:15 AM



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Its sad that this even needed to be "debunked". From that quote Jan Irving posted (and twisted to meet his own agenda/belief system) it was blatantly obvious to anyone really familiar with McKenna that he was talking about the mushroom/the Other in that quote. People will believe in anything.
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<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
DMTrickster
#3 Posted : 10/2/2013 5:28:36 AM

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universecannon wrote:
Its sad that this even needed to be "debunked". From that quote Jan Irving posted (and twisted to meet his own agenda/belief system) it was blatantly obvious to anyone really familiar with McKenna that he was talking about the mushroom/the Other in that quote. People will believe in anything.


I completely agree with you. In fact, my original title for the article was "The Unnecessary Debunking of the 'Agent McKenna' Theory."
 
jamie
#4 Posted : 10/2/2013 5:55:14 AM

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Jan Irvin has become more and more disappointing.
 
universecannon
#5 Posted : 10/2/2013 6:33:47 AM



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DMTrickster wrote:
universecannon wrote:
Its sad that this even needed to be "debunked". From that quote Jan Irving posted (and twisted to meet his own agenda/belief system) it was blatantly obvious to anyone really familiar with McKenna that he was talking about the mushroom/the Other in that quote. People will believe in anything.


I completely agree with you. In fact, my original title for the article was "The Unnecessary Debunking of the 'Agent McKenna' Theory."



heheh, nice title


so has jan responded to this yet?
The Nexian


<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
DMTrickster
#6 Posted : 10/2/2013 7:14:15 AM

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universecannon wrote:
DMTrickster wrote:
universecannon wrote:
Its sad that this even needed to be "debunked". From that quote Jan Irving posted (and twisted to meet his own agenda/belief system) it was blatantly obvious to anyone really familiar with McKenna that he was talking about the mushroom/the Other in that quote. People will believe in anything.


I completely agree with you. In fact, my original title for the article was "The Unnecessary Debunking of the 'Agent McKenna' Theory."



heheh, nice title


so has jan responded to this yet?


Yeah, he actually sent me an email almost immediately. I didn't expect him to change his views on the matter. He was already convinced that Terence was FBI just from reading Terence's book "True Hallucinations." Anyways, I didn't write the debunking for him, I could really care less if he read it or not. I wrote it for all the people who were being brainwashed by his asinine allegations against McKenna.

I've been really busy lately, so I haven't had a chance to thoroughly reply to his rebuttal yet. I will be adding his rebuttal, along with my reply, up on my site soon. Here it is:


Quote:
Jan Irvin's Rebuttal:

Hey, Kc James, please study the trivium study section we’ve provided on the website regarding logical fallacies and critical thinking. You just “debunked” me by omitting all of the evidence. That’s nothing but a lie. You ignored that all these points were already covered. That’s totally dishonest of you.

Sadly, you’re so-called debunking is totally fallacious and has to actually ignore his own words. Of course your points were already covered. Why do you have to entirely IGNORE his FBI and INTERPOL chase? Why do you IGNORE that mushrooms don’t have deep background and public relations? Why do you IGNORE that he was out of money and they offered him a job?

You’ve not debunked anything. You’ve just proved that you can create a straw man argument and ignore the evidence. Please see the trivium study section to the left and remove the fallacies and lies of omission in your post before you claim that you’ve debunked a thing.

You can’t debunk something by ignoring the evidence for the simple reason that it doesn’t jive with your religious views. When you omit all of the evidence, this is known as the lie of omission. When you then present something else from another conversation, from another time line, as if it’s answering to this stream of thought, this is known as the lie of the red herring. That’s what you’ve done. All of these points were already posted, but you ignored each one. You must address these without pretending that they don’t exist.

Why the need to automatically distort and ignore his own words? Why the need to bring up a totally seperate conversation? He’s very clear that this particular conversation is about his FBI chase. But in your so-called debunking, you ignore the FBI chase and his own words. You have to lie by omission. Just stay focused on the points and other extensive research we’ve already put out on this topic. Why did you ignore that we already addressed your entire “debunking”? Is that not totally disengenuous to ignore that we already debunked you, and then lie by omitting each point we raised?

Why would the metaphor fit perfectly as the conclusion of this FBI / Interpol chase? Do you understand the concept of cognitive dissonance? The Stockholm Syndrome?

I really do understand you. I was there once, believed these guys couldn’t be. But just like Wasson, who headed MKULTRA subproject 58 and was a public relations man for JP Morgan, McKenna here too McKenna admits that he was also in public relations, or propaganda, for 15 years. But you need to use some common sense and critical thinking — what McKenna was against. I know you want to use fallacies to dismiss his own words, and, ironically, it’s YOU who is arguing that he’s lying… with no evidence or justification for doing so, other than your not wanting to look at the facts. If you just read through, you don’t have to dismiss his own words.

Again, I understand that he’s your religious hero and that you’re grasping at fallacious straws to ignore his own words, ignoring the fact that public relations, or propaganda’s entire purpose is to fool you JUST LIKE HE HAS. You’re free to believe this nonsense you’ve posted, chosing to ignore logic and his own words, creating a straw man to a different topic and pretending it’s the same one, ignoring the FBI and INTERPOL chase, but all of this bahavior isn’t honest. You’re fooling no one but yourself and those gullible enough to believe these fallacies you’ve used to do your thinking for you.

 
Parshvik Chintan
#7 Posted : 10/2/2013 7:44:17 AM

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some people should be banned from using the words fallacy/fallacious

or at the very least an education on what fallacies actually are...
My wind instrument is the bong
CHANGA IN THE BONGA!
 
universecannon
#8 Posted : 10/2/2013 8:47:22 AM



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I guess Jan hasn't bothered to read Dennis McKenna's new memoir about their life together. He constantly is saying that the "FBI" problem terence had in the past couldn't have just evaporated...saying that it was incentive for him to help them as an informant or what have you- so he could get his name cleared.

But Dennis explains in the book how it was all resolved. It was a really minor thing to begin with since it was just a bit of hash him and a few other kids were helping sneak in. When he went to turn himself in with his father they didn't even know what he was talking about until they finally found the paperwork. No one had any clue of who terence was back then anyways, so there is no reason they would have even had him on their radar

But yeah there is no chance of convincing Jan of anything at this point. He's just too stuck in his own warped reality-tunnel to ever consider it being wrong. I get why you posted it though.
The Nexian


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DMTrickster
#9 Posted : 10/2/2013 9:42:47 AM

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universecannon wrote:
I guess Jan hasn't bothered to read Dennis McKenna's new memoir about their life together. He constantly is saying that the "FBI" problem terence had in the past couldn't have just evaporated...saying that it was incentive for him to help them as an informant or what have you- so he could get his name cleared.

But Dennis explains in the book how it was all resolved. It was a really minor thing to begin with since it was just a bit of hash him and a few other kids were helping sneak in. When he went to turn himself in with his father they didn't even know what he was talking about until they finally found the paperwork. No one had any clue of who terence was back then anyways, so there is no reason they would have even had him on their radar

But yeah there is no chance of convincing Jan of anything at this point. He's just too stuck in his own warped reality-tunnel to ever consider it being wrong. I get why you posted it though.


Wow! I'm glad that Dennis went into detail about Terence and the FBI in his new book. I was wondering if he was going to mention it or not. I just ordered the hardcover from amazon. I have been meaning to get this book for a while now, I just never got around to it for some reason. Thanks for propelling me to finally order a copy! I heard it's a really great read, and that it shines a new light on Terence.
 
Siphersh
#10 Posted : 10/2/2013 2:42:38 PM
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DMTrickster wrote:
Jan Irvin wrote:
Why do you have to entirely IGNORE his FBI and INTERPOL chase? Why do you IGNORE that mushrooms don’t have deep background and public relations? Why do you IGNORE that he was out of money and they offered him a job?

A typical case of the fitting the picture fallacy. Jan Irvin seems to think that fitting his thesis is somehow an argument for misinterpreting the quote. That's how fallacious theories are built.

The cultural enterprise is not being managed. It’s out of control. Which is good news, I think. Because if it were under control, it would probably be under the control of someone with plans not terribly pleasant for the rest of us. I think the great good news is that the cultural process is expressing its own dynamic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj1yFZRmFsw#t=2038

http://www.the-nines.net...light-is-too-bright.html
 
DMTrickster
#11 Posted : 10/2/2013 10:47:27 PM

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universecannon wrote:
I guess Jan hasn't bothered to read Dennis McKenna's new memoir about their life together. He constantly is saying that the "FBI" problem terence had in the past couldn't have just evaporated...saying that it was incentive for him to help them as an informant or what have you- so he could get his name cleared.

But Dennis explains in the book how it was all resolved. It was a really minor thing to begin with since it was just a bit of hash him and a few other kids were helping sneak in. When he went to turn himself in with his father they didn't even know what he was talking about until they finally found the paperwork. No one had any clue of who terence was back then anyways, so there is no reason they would have even had him on their radar

But yeah there is no chance of convincing Jan of anything at this point. He's just too stuck in his own warped reality-tunnel to ever consider it being wrong. I get why you posted it though.


Would it be possible to get a quote from Dennis' book in regards to Terence being absolved of his smuggling crimes? I would like to add this information to my article. If not it's okay, I should have the book in a couple days, and I can just get it then.
 
Siphersh
#12 Posted : 10/3/2013 12:03:47 AM
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"In fact it became clear that they had no background information on the case. [...] For them, the case began with the package they'd tracked to the Basalt post office. They produced my wallet, which they'd taken earlier, and started going through the paper scraps in it, scribbled grocery lists and phone numbers and so forth. One of those was the smoking gun: Terence's address in Bombay!"

"I'm not sure what inquiries were made or how the matter proceeded to be so easily resolved; I do remember that Terence and our father went to the Federal Building in Denver accompanied by a lawyer. As Terence later told it, he announced at the courthouse that he was there to turn himself in, but nobody seemed to know what he was talking about. After a search, seomeone found the paperwork and had him fill out a few forms and schedule a court appearance. It was all politely bureaucratic - hardly the reception an international fugitive might have expected after eluding capture for nearly three years.

Once the case was settled, I belive he got three years unsupervised probation in return for telling them "everything he knew" about his hashish suppliers. Terence's response was a long, rambling account with references to an auto body shop in a back alley in Bombay, as I recall. When I read the statement months later, I assumed he'd made it all up, but it apparently satisfied the authorities. To the best of my knowledge, the whole mess ended there; he never heard another word about it.
"

- from the book "Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss", Dennis McKenna

So, there's really no reason to believe that it was a large amount of hashish. It was one package sent by post. If Jan Irvin wants to argue that the sentence was too lenient, he'd have to bring forth some actual evidence for that, I think.

Also, check out my comments that have been quoted in that post, the second url I linked above. I collected some quotes from that certain Esalen workshop. The one I quoted (and much of the entire recording, actually) shows that he was not talking to cynical CIA insiders, who were in on the evil conspiracy. The rest of the quotes are about the DMT elves and one's relation to them.
 
DMTrickster
#13 Posted : 10/3/2013 12:13:32 AM

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Thank you! I appreciate it man.
 
universecannon
#14 Posted : 10/3/2013 12:34:02 AM



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It'd be fun to see how Jan replies to that quote, so keep us updated if you can

No doubt it won't sway his opinion on the matter one inch though. ^_^
The Nexian


<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
DMTrickster
#15 Posted : 10/3/2013 1:06:34 AM

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universecannon wrote:
It'd be fun to see how Jan replies to that quote, so keep us updated if you can

No doubt it won't sway his opinion on the matter one inch though. ^_^


For sure I will. I just now updated it with that quote.


 
Siphersh
#16 Posted : 10/3/2013 2:05:11 AM
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He could for example reply that lo, Dennis himself admits that there was something fishy going on. "hardly the reception an international fugitive might have expected"

The problem is that by asking why he got away so easily, he's asking to prove a negative. To prove that he was not recruited by the government. We don't know why he got away, so he must be an agent. Argument by ignorance.

Of course I'm only attaching these silly labels to his errors because that's the kind of pretentious language he feels at home with.

It's all a feast of non sequiturs. There are these seven questions he asks in his article. All of them are strawman arguments: contrasting his theory to assertions that no one suggested. It was pointed out to him that it's a metaphor, assigning worldly organizational categories to the transcendental relationship. And in response he argues that it doesn't literally apply to the mushroom, and that the mushroom couldn't have saved him from the FBI. Like anyone claims that.

And then, when DMTrickster, you point out that this metaphor is usual for him, and he can expect it to be understood by people who are familiar with his talk, his answer is that it's not "answering to this stream of thought"?. It doesn't even make any sense. Argumentum ab duhhh.
 
endlessness
#17 Posted : 10/3/2013 2:30:27 AM

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What is wrong with that Jan guy?

Totally unwarranted confrontational self righteous tone...

Always makes me wonder how effective psychedelics really are at trimming down the ego and all of that, when you see people acting in this way.
 
fredd
#18 Posted : 10/3/2013 4:38:45 PM
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I read some comments on Jan Irvings site and he really comes off as an utter fool spouting nonsense - suprised he even has an audience.
 
DMTrickster
#19 Posted : 10/3/2013 5:22:11 PM

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fredd wrote:
I read some comments on Jan Irvings site and he really comes off as an utter fool spouting nonsense - suprised he even has an audience.


Personally, I think that he has changed. It seems as though he has grown to be a lot more aggressive and pessimistic over the years. I used to listen to his interviews in the early gnosticmedia days. But I eventually tuned out once he started on this whole psychedelic-conspiracy shtick. He has done a lot of great interviews; Carl Ruck, Stan Grof, Brian Akers, Michael Winkelman, and even Dennis McKenna. The interviews can actually be quite informative when he's not pestering his interviewees with the trivium and quadrivium. I would say podcasts 1-100 are worth listening to, everything after that Jan goes off the conspiracy deep end.
 
DMTrickster
#20 Posted : 10/11/2013 8:46:13 PM

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For anyone interested in this topic, it's still actively being discussed over at the Duncan Trussell forums: HERE Jan even pops in from time to time to try and save face lol.
 
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