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Ferment MSG to get GBL, or tryptophan to get tryptophol? Options
 
MaNoMaNoM
#1 Posted : 9/24/2013 3:41:05 PM

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Stop Disclaimer:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
"
gamma-Butyrolactone (γ-butyrolactone or GBL) is a hygroscopic colorless oily liquid with a weak characteristic odor and is soluble in water. GBL is a common solvent and reagent in chemistry and is used as an aroma compound, as a stain remover, as a superglue remover, as a paint stripper, and as a solvent in some wet aluminium electrolytic capacitors. In humans it acts as a prodrug for GHB, and it is used as a recreational intoxicant with effects similar to alcohol."



GBL overdose can cause irrational behaviour, severe sickness, coma and death.[7]

Metabolism takes place in stomach and blood plasma. Both the duration and onset of GBL are shorter than of GHB. Otherwise, effects are similar to GHB, although weight for weight GBL is significantly more powerful due to being absorbed faster and its higher bioavailability, meaning dosage must be lowered accordingly. If taken undiluted by mouth, GBL can cause esophageal and gastro-intestinal irritation. It is possible for oral ingestion of GBL to cause nausea and other similar problems, possibly more so than with GHB.
Dangers

GHB (gamma hydroxybutyrate) and GBL (gamma butyrolactone) are substances which are often used as recreational drugs. GHB has two effects, at low doses it has a euphoric effect (which is why it is sometimes referred to as liquid ecstasy). GHB also has a sedative effect[8] and at higher doses it can cause unconsciousness.[9]

There have been news reports of several deaths associated with GBL.[10]
Addictiveness

Frequent use of GHB/GBL, even when taken long-term and in moderate doses, does not appear to cause significant physical dependency in the greater majority of its users. In many people, quitting or temporarily abstaining from use of the drugs is achieved with minimal or no difficulty. However, when consumed in excessive amounts with a high frequency of dosing, physical and psychological dependence can develop.[11][12]

Frequent use of alcohol (which induces similar effects) can directly translate to physical and usually psychological addiction, where the heavy user can suffer painful and even life-threatening withdrawals.

There are some reports of GHB/GBL users adopting a '24/7' dosing regime.[13] This is where the user has become tolerant to the effects of the drug, increasing the dosage and frequency of dosage simply to avoid withdrawal symptoms.

For those users who do report withdrawal symptoms upon quitting the use of GHB/GBL, symptoms seem to depend on the dosage and the length of time the drug was used for. Light to moderate users often experience insomnia and sleep-related problems, whereas heavy, prolonged use can cause severe withdrawal symptoms similar to Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome (BWS).
Dose

A milliliter of pure GBL metabolizes to the equivalent 1.65g of NaGHB, the common form, so doses are measured in the single milliliter range, either taken all at once or sipped over the course of a night. GBL has a distinctive taste and odour, described as being comparable to stale water, synthetic melon aroma or burnt plastic. This differs significantly from GHB, which is described as having a decidedly "salty" taste.[14]
"



This is an interesting post started by wiccan_seeker on another forum.

I wonder what melatonin would turn intoDrool

A few good QUOTEs from the thread:

Detection of gamma-butyrolactone (GBL)
as a natural component in wine
by
Vose J, Tighe T, Schwartz M, Buel E.
Vermont Forensic Laboratory,
Waterbury 05676, USA.
J Forensic Sci 2001 Sep;46(5):1164-

ABSTRACT

The compound gamma-butyrolactone (GBL) was found in extracts from samples of unadulterated wines. This finding indicates that GBL is a naturally occurring component in some wines and may be present in similar products. The concentration detected was approximately 5 microg/mL and was easily observed using a simple extraction technique followed by GC/MS analysis. These results illustrate the need to carefully examine an allegedly adulterated sample's matrix before determining a sample was laced with GBL.


Started a batch today with the following recipe:
3.8 L Pasteurized Apple Juice (not from concentrate with ascorbic acid)
1 cup fresh Ginger tea
12 grams MSG
1/4 packet wine yeast (Lalvin D47)
That is approximately a 3g/L concentration.

if i had to explain it id say MSG, an amino acid, can be fermented into GHB, and this happens because the yeast is already fermenting the sugar in the solution into ethanol and co2, and the MSG is fermented into the corresponding GHB along with it.

Part of the original post was the idea that this can also produce tryptophol from tryptophan. It by itself is nothing of importance (could be used as a sleep aid) but more importantly it can be converted to DMT. The only real references I can find on tryptophol -> DMT are just theoretical though and the reaction conditions seem a little harsh for DMT synth but it does open up possibilities.

Hell, there are no end to the potentially novel alcohols that could be produced by this method.

Ampakines and other peptide drugs come to mind

It should be safe to assume that by general rule, all amino acids should go through this metabolic pathway when added to a fermentation mash.

Quote:
MisterMuscaria said:
Just outta curiosity, could a "prison ghb" be made by adding a pack of ramen noodle seasoning to your typical jail hooch?




Interestingly, probably yes

Although from what I found it looks like only 500mg per pack. Could use 8 packs for a gallon of hooch and get 1g/L of ghb.

Quote:
C_T said:
so if ghb distills at like 205c, why couldn't this be a very simple test, distill of the alc at 78.3 degC, then boil down whats remaining to a concentrate.

best of both worlds?

GHB doesn't actually distill, GBL does. GBL forms an azeotrope with water (just like alcohol does) and distills well below 205c. If you try to separate it by fractional distillation some could come over with the water/alcohol azeotrope.

A more efficient way to isolate GHB in salt form as stated by teefizzle:

Basify the mixture to convert all GBL to NaGHB
Distill off the ethanol and a lot of the water
Acidify the mixture to convert it back to GBL
Distill off the GBL and the rest of the water as an azeotrope
Basify the mixture with NaOH to convert to NaGHB in water
Evaporate the water to yield NaGHB powder/paste


*ALL WAYS WITH LOVE
 

Live plants. Sustainable, ethically sourced, native American owned.
 
Shadowman-x
#2 Posted : 9/24/2013 4:20:19 PM

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Although this is interesting and done inside of yeasts, i'm not entirely sure if the synthesis aspect of this is allowed on the forums?
I followed that thread intently..it's pretty beautiful.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
 
MaNoMaNoM
#3 Posted : 9/24/2013 7:13:25 PM

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I do not see any difference between using yeast, or toads, or plants....
They are all openly talked about here. Wican_seeker said he posted here about it,
and surprisingly got a negative response, but i couldn't find that thread.
*ALL WAYS WITH LOVE
 
benzyme
#4 Posted : 9/24/2013 8:00:17 PM

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msg is not an amino acid, it is a salt.
although there are no suspect/hazardous chems
used, you should specify the hazards of the end product,
particularly its steep dosage curve.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Mindlusion
#5 Posted : 9/25/2013 12:50:26 AM

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benzyme wrote:
msg is not an amino acid, it is a salt.
although there are no suspect/hazardous chems
used, you should specify the hazards of the end product,
particularly its steep dosage curve.


Yes, GBL is some real dangerous stuff, you REALLY should add some sort of disclaimer. Ask ringworm.

If your going to distill GBL, you'll want a nice strong vacuum distillation, it has quite a high BP, even at its water azeotrope. (better yet, get a rotovap)

And you won't be able to obtain a dry salt through evaporation of the water, its extremely hydroscopic. A double boiler works.


Definitely possible with MSG as a starting point, never thought to use yeast though. Seems like a good idea.

---

Rather then screwing around with GBL, I say its time for tryptophol experiments.
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
MaNoMaNoM
#6 Posted : 9/25/2013 9:31:23 PM

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It is generally thought that the amount of GBL is directly related to the amount of MSG.
So 1L fermented with ~2G's of MSG, will hypothetically be 1L/2gGBL after fermentation.


benzyme wrote:
msg is not an amino acid, it is a salt.
although there are no suspect/hazardous chems
used, you should specify the hazards of the end product,
particularly its steep dosage curve.

QUOTE: Mindlusion
Posted: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 6:50:26 PM

Yes, GBL is some real dangerous stuff, you REALLY should add some sort of disclaimer. Ask ringworm.

If your going to distill GBL, you'll want a nice strong vacuum distillation, it has quite a high BP, even at its water azeotrope. (better yet, get a rotovap)

And you won't be able to obtain a dry salt through evaporation of the water, its extremely hydroscopic. A double boiler works.


Definitely possible with MSG as a starting point, never thought to use yeast though. Seems like a good idea.

---

Rather then screwing around with GBL, I say its time for tryptophol experiments."


Thanks for the information! ..So wat kind of experiments did you have in mind?
I read tryptophol makes people sleepy, but i bet there is something else about it.
Possible that melatonin, phenylalanine, and psilocybin would also be interesting.

Of course, I was not planning on it, but it is still pretty fun to think about.
Indeed, MSG is a good starting point, but i don't think we should go there, Neutral .
This could be wrong, but if you were hypothetically separating the GBL, Big grin wouldn't it be easier to just
- acidify ferment extract
- distill off the alcohol
- base + GBL/water > GHB/water
Do you think the GHB would form when the base is added, and would this even work?
*ALL WAYS WITH LOVE
 
tgun
#7 Posted : 8/11/2014 11:04:16 PM

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Ive been considering making my own 5-htp from griffolia seeds to get away from fillers and all that. Possibly cost savings. it is apparently fermented at some point but I havnt looked into it any farther yet.

There is a workable OTC Sandermyer Reaction GBL to GHB from GABA/sodium nitrite/HCL on Erowid. There are also a couple of forum threads with additions to it OL if you search that out. I think the azeotrope ends up being 1 ml GBL/10 ml water after distillation. You can keep adding water to the reaction and distilling again and again or extracting from it to get the rest out after first distillation. Otherwise use the distillate basicly like you^ said to get NaGHB.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#8 Posted : 8/12/2014 1:26:36 AM

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Why exactly do we want tryptaphol? All I can find on it is a report that it induces a "sleep-like" state in mice (apparently characterized by decreased glucose metabolism).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7241135

Also: genotoxicity?
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
benzyme
#9 Posted : 8/12/2014 6:34:03 AM

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Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Why exactly do we want tryptaphol?


synthetikal/hive dreamtime masturbation, etc.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Infectedstyle
#10 Posted : 8/18/2014 11:59:31 AM
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benzyme wrote:
synthetikal/hive

Huh, what?
 
expandaneum
#11 Posted : 8/18/2014 12:42:18 PM

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Quote:
Huh, what?

ghetto cook and chem enthusiast forums.
Disclaimer:
All Expandeum's notes, messages, postings, ideas, suggestions, concepts or other material submitted via this forum and or website are completely fictional and are not in any way based on real live experience.
 
Infectedstyle
#12 Posted : 8/19/2014 5:21:06 AM
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Oh ya i been there. It had instructions how to make MDMA. Very happy Haha, thanks for the reference. But I am actually more confused about Benzyme's response now.
 
benzyme
#13 Posted : 8/19/2014 5:25:46 AM

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reference to the ol' rhodium recipe involving tryptophol
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Infectedstyle
#14 Posted : 8/19/2014 5:35:41 AM
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Could not find much but this is interesting. http://www.lycaeum.org/r...hemistry/tryptophol.html
I guess it answers nathanial.dread's answer quite neatly.
 
benzyme
#15 Posted : 8/19/2014 5:47:14 AM

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ha

yup, like i mentioned, hive autoeroticism; only good for informational purposes, as those procedures require hazardous (TSCA inventory) reagents. Those reduction reagents are readily pyrophoric if one is not careful, and PBr3 is highly toxic.

ferment tryptophol if you want, but the buck stops there.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
Nathanial.Dread
#16 Posted : 8/19/2014 3:06:09 PM

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Tryptophol itself doesn't look like anything you want to be playing with, at least, not until we know more about it's toxic effects.

Kosalec et al. wrote:
Tryptophol is an aromatic alcohol and secondary metabolite of the opportunistic fungus Candida albicans. Although its toxicity profile at cell level has been poorly investigated, recent data point to cytotoxic, cytostatic, and genotoxic effects in lymphocytes and the induction of apoptosis in leukaemic blood monocytes. In this pilot study we evaluated the genotoxicity of tryptophol in vitro on four permanent cell lines of animal and human origin: ovary cells, alveolar epithelium, liver cells, and blood monocytes using the alkaline comet assay. We selected cells that might be principal targets of tryptophol and other low-molecular geno(toxins) secreted by Candida albicans during host invasion. Our results suggest that tryptophol applied in vitro at 2 mmol L(-1) for 24 h damages DNA in HepG2, A549 and THP-1 cells, obviously due to bioactivation and/or decomposition of the parent compound, which results in the formation of more genotoxic compound(s) and production of reactive species that additionally damage DNA. On the other hand, notably lower levels of primary DNA damage were recorded in CHO cells, which lack metabolic activity. Future studies with tryptophol should look further into mechanisms involved in its toxic action and should focus on other cell types prone to infection with Candida spp. such as vaginal epithelial cells or keratinocytes of human origin.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21421532

The words "cytotoxic" and "cytostatic" couldn't help but stick out to me. Granted these are in vitro studies of cell cultures, but still, this is not what I want to see when I start researching a potentially novel compound.
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
benzyme
#17 Posted : 8/19/2014 5:07:00 PM

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i don't know about you, but i wouldn't soak my hands in a tryptophol solution for 24 hrs anyway.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
 
 
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