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DMT solubility in Propylene Glycol (PG) Options
 
The Neural
#1 Posted : 7/25/2013 10:29:26 AM

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This question has been asked in a large variety of posts and threads regarding the use of electronic cigarettes. I am taking the liberty of creating this thread to focus specifically on the question of solubility and nothing else, so anyone interested can find it due to its title. I also found it appropriate to place it here in the advanced chemistry section, since our chemists are most likely the best bet as far as addressing this question goes. We are talking freebase DMT, in plain and clear Propylene Glycol.

Thank you for any contribution.

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Dr_Sister
#2 Posted : 7/26/2013 12:31:48 AM

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Is it really Propylene Glycol in e-digs? Sister thought it was Glycercin.

Sister doesn't know off the top of her head but, this might shed some light on your question:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17557745

OR, you might try an experiment with 5mgs of DMT and see for yourself. (more fun than reading)

Let us know what you find out.
 
The Neural
#3 Posted : 7/26/2013 12:19:20 PM

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Definitely Propylene Glycol in e-cigs. Some have a ratio of PG along with VG.

Here is what I think someone may have found : This guy, started with 10ml of PG.
He has now dissolved completely at least 1.5 grams of DMT. The solution is now dark orange (from clear), and has the same exact consistency as it did before the drop in. He thinks there is certainly room for more. However, before he throws in any more, he wanted to find out if there is any established knowledge on the solubility.

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

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Gone-and-Back
#4 Posted : 7/27/2013 3:22:17 AM
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The Neural wrote:
Definitely Propylene Glycol in e-cigs. Some have a ratio of PG along with VG.

Here is what I think someone may have found : This guy, started with 10ml of PG.
He has now dissolved completely at least 1.5 grams of DMT. The solution is now dark orange (from clear), and has the same exact consistency as it did before the drop in. He thinks there is certainly room for more. However, before he throws in any more, he wanted to find out if there is any established knowledge on the solubility.


Whoever it is that did this, now needs to test out smoking it...This is something that no one else in the e-cig threads as tried to do, and I am sure that with that much disolved, one hit is going to be a rediculous experience. Please have him test this!
Everything published by Gone-and-Back are the mad rantings and ravings of a mind who yearns to be free and thinks he knows what he is talking about. However, these are just delusions made to feel that freedom, because that freedom will never come. Any experiments done are purely figments of the imagination, and are falsified to the highest degree. Nothing should be taken seriously from a crazy mans mind.
 
The Neural
#5 Posted : 7/27/2013 12:01:33 PM

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Gone-and-Back wrote:
The Neural wrote:
Definitely Propylene Glycol in e-cigs. Some have a ratio of PG along with VG.

Here is what I think someone may have found : This guy, started with 10ml of PG.
He has now dissolved completely at least 1.5 grams of DMT. The solution is now dark orange (from clear), and has the same exact consistency as it did before the drop in. He thinks there is certainly room for more. However, before he throws in any more, he wanted to find out if there is any established knowledge on the solubility.


Whoever it is that did this, now needs to test out smoking it...This is something that no one else in the e-cig threads as tried to do, and I am sure that with that much disolved, one hit is going to be a rediculous experience. Please have him test this!


I will share the reason why he is reluctant to test it yet until he dissolves some more. Let's assume it's 1.5 grams and not more. That is 150mg per 1ml. 1ml is the tank's capacity. 1 tank is much, much more than ~50 puffs. That would roughly end up at 3mg per puff. That would certainly require having eaten or smoked FB harmalas, and even then he may require more than 5 puffs for a proper experience.

What are your thoughts?

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gibran2
#6 Posted : 7/27/2013 12:18:50 PM

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The Neural wrote:
I will share the reason why he is reluctant to test it yet until he dissolves some more. Let's assume it's 1.5 grams and not more. That is 150mg per 1ml. 1ml is the tank's capacity. 1 tank is much, much more than ~50 puffs. That would roughly end up at 3mg per puff. That would certainly require having eaten or smoked FB harmalas, and even then he may require more than 5 puffs for a proper experience.

What are your thoughts?

I’ve stayed out of this thread until now, since some e-cig advocates get very sensitive when anyone says it’s a lousy method to administer DMT.

You hit the nail on the head with your observation.

Quite a while ago I purchased a very nice (and expensive) e-cig after someone here was singing the praises of them, and I discovered exactly what you’re talking about: It takes many, many inhalations to feel even light effects. Using an e-cig without pre-dosing with harmalas is a no-go in my opinion – the effects of one puff are already wearing off by the time you take the second.

My experience was that I was more likely to get effects from the resultant hyperventilation than from the DMT!

Let’s think logically for a moment – To get a solid, reliable breakthrough, one needs to inhale a fairly large amount of dense DMT vapor in a relatively short period of time. Even with pure DMT in a vaporizer, some people still have problems accomplishing this.

So how is diluting the DMT with PG or something similar and then vaporizing it in a device designed to slowly administer its contents going to help?

Sorry if I steered away from the question in the OP, but even if it was possible to have pure liquid DMT in an e-cig, it’s still unlikely that it would work well – they’re simply not designed to deliver the volume of vapor at the rate necessary.
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Gone-and-Back
#7 Posted : 7/27/2013 2:55:01 PM
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The Neural wrote:


I will share the reason why he is reluctant to test it yet until he dissolves some more. Let's assume it's 1.5 grams and not more. That is 150mg per 1ml. 1ml is the tank's capacity. 1 tank is much, much more than ~50 puffs. That would roughly end up at 3mg per puff. That would certainly require having eaten or smoked FB harmalas, and even then he may require more than 5 puffs for a proper experience.

What are your thoughts?


I now see why this would be an issue, I never thought of this before. Unless one could dissolve say, 10g in 10ml, or possibly 20g in 10ml of liquid, this method really is not a good ROA.

And in order to do this, one would need a rediculous amount of DMT to work with...And if it didnt work, all that DMT is then lost pretty much. I can see now why no one has gone forward with this.
Everything published by Gone-and-Back are the mad rantings and ravings of a mind who yearns to be free and thinks he knows what he is talking about. However, these are just delusions made to feel that freedom, because that freedom will never come. Any experiments done are purely figments of the imagination, and are falsified to the highest degree. Nothing should be taken seriously from a crazy mans mind.
 
The Neural
#8 Posted : 7/27/2013 3:02:45 PM

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gibran2 wrote:
My experience was that I was more likely to get effects from the resultant hyperventilation than from the DMT!

Most likely!

gibran2 wrote:
Sorry if I steered away from the question in the OP, but even if it was possible to have pure liquid DMT in an e-cig, it’s still unlikely that it would work well – they’re simply not designed to deliver the volume of vapor at the rate necessary.

Very true. Some e-cigs have a dial for voltage however, and this is what is at hand. Will a maximum saturation of DMT in PG, and in combination with an e-cig that reaches 4.something volts, be even at least effective with harmalas? But I guess this is a different question that warrants a different thread, as you correctly pointed out.

Gone-and-Back wrote:
And in order to do this, one would need a rediculous amount of DMT to work with...And if it didnt work, all that DMT is then lost pretty much. I can see now why no one has gone forward with this.


I agree that it will be lost. However, the notion that this approach would require copious amounts of DMT, I personally think is not a significant enough reason to not experiment!

Either way, it's his DMT, and finding that something cannot be done (when experimenting properly at all the levels) is as valuable as finding that something can be done, in my opinion. Still, good points everyone.

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

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Gone-and-Back
#9 Posted : 7/27/2013 3:14:04 PM
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If he wants to try testing out on an e-cig that has various voltages, my recommendation would be the Ego-C Twist. I believe the max voltage is 4.2-4.4, the only down side is they are somewhat bulky and cost around eighty bucks.

Like you said though, its his experimentation and if he wants to spend the money on getting those then by all means go ahead! Buying just the battery with the changeable voltage is not as expensive I believe, but you would need to already have an e-cig that will be able to use said battery.
Everything published by Gone-and-Back are the mad rantings and ravings of a mind who yearns to be free and thinks he knows what he is talking about. However, these are just delusions made to feel that freedom, because that freedom will never come. Any experiments done are purely figments of the imagination, and are falsified to the highest degree. Nothing should be taken seriously from a crazy mans mind.
 
The Neural
#10 Posted : 7/27/2013 3:15:49 PM

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Gone-and-Back wrote:
If he wants to try testing out on an e-cig that has various voltages, my recommendation would be the Ego-C Twist. I believe the max voltage is 4.2-4.4, the only down side is they are somewhat bulky and cost around eighty bucks.

Like you said though, its his experimentation and if he wants to spend the money on getting those then by all means go ahead! Buying just the battery with the changeable voltage is not as expensive I believe, but you would need to already have an e-cig that will be able to use said battery.


No worries, he already has exactly that: Ego-C Twist, and it cost around £30 straight from the Joytech warehouse. And just to be pedantic in case that info helps, it goes up to 4.8V.

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

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Gone-and-Back
#11 Posted : 7/27/2013 10:44:22 PM
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The Neural wrote:


No worries, he already has exactly that: Ego-C Twist, and it cost around £30 straight from the Joytech warehouse. And just to be pedantic in case that info helps, it goes up to 4.8V.


Well then, he has all the products necessary. Lets hope more DMT can be added to that solution! If it can, and people can do this regularly, you have a very good DMT vape that is portable and convenient to use. Plus, people would not take a second look at someone sitting there smoking an e-cig!
Everything published by Gone-and-Back are the mad rantings and ravings of a mind who yearns to be free and thinks he knows what he is talking about. However, these are just delusions made to feel that freedom, because that freedom will never come. Any experiments done are purely figments of the imagination, and are falsified to the highest degree. Nothing should be taken seriously from a crazy mans mind.
 
Gone-and-Back
#12 Posted : 8/2/2013 2:00:26 AM
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Just wondering, has any progress been made in adding more to the mix?
Everything published by Gone-and-Back are the mad rantings and ravings of a mind who yearns to be free and thinks he knows what he is talking about. However, these are just delusions made to feel that freedom, because that freedom will never come. Any experiments done are purely figments of the imagination, and are falsified to the highest degree. Nothing should be taken seriously from a crazy mans mind.
 
fastfred
#13 Posted : 8/2/2013 5:04:58 AM
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Gone-and-Back wrote:
Plus, people would not take a second look at someone sitting there smoking an e-cig!


They will probably notice however when you start tripping balls in public!

This all probably comes down to how much can be dissolved and how much vapor can be delivered.

I would start with no more than a ml, you can't vaporize anywhere close to that, even in several hits. Add an excess and gently heat the solution, remove a few drops of the supernatant and vaporize by directly dripping it on the atomizer.

If direct dripping with supersaturated PG doesn't work then nothing probably will.
 
Mindlusion
#14 Posted : 8/3/2013 5:54:23 PM

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I just wanted to point out I think The Neural's avatar is hilarious and awesome.

DMT freebase is definitely soluble in propylene glycol, if you wanted this to work you would need to mod the e-cig some how...

How about a nebulizer?



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The Neural
#15 Posted : 8/5/2013 12:35:49 PM

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Gone-and-Back wrote:
Just wondering, has any progress been made in adding more to the mix?


Not yet, he is waiting for more sustainable resources to lead to the final product. He predicts that he may resume the addition in a couple of weeks.

fastfred wrote:

They will probably notice however when you start tripping balls in public!


The notion of doing it in public was (and is) not his intention, and that will not change in the future.

fastfred wrote:

I would start with no more than a ml, you can't vaporize anywhere close to that, even in several hits. Add an excess and gently heat the solution, remove a few drops of the supernatant and vaporize by directly dripping it on the atomizer.


I agree with starting with no more than 1 ml, but he has already started with 10ml, I think mainly because he is slightly biased to believe that it "will" work.

Also, heat may not be required, as DMT readily dissolves in room temperature PG. He may perform that step however, when no more DMT dissolves in room temperature PG.


Mindlusion wrote:

I just wanted to point out I think The Neural's avatar is hilarious and awesome.

When night falls...


Thumbs up

Mindlusion wrote:

DMT freebase is definitely soluble in propylene glycol, if you wanted this to work you would need to mod the e-cig some how...

How about a nebulizer?


As pointed out in a previous post in this thread, this person has an Ego C-Twist, with variable voltage levels that range from 3.3V to 4.8V. He thinks this is pretty high, at least certainly higher than non-customisable e-cigs. He is going for the most straightforward and easy solution, without having to mess around with the mechanics of the device. It may not work, but he wants to give it a try.

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fastfred
#16 Posted : 8/7/2013 12:21:35 PM
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> Also, heat may not be required, as DMT readily dissolves in room temperature PG.

You need heat to get a super saturated solution. There is a some hysteresis between dissolving and precipitating/crystallizing. I'm not saying to use much heat, but using say a hot water bath straight from the tap will give you that little bump to make sure you really have tried everything to the fullest extent.

> I agree with starting with no more than 1 ml, but he has already started with 10ml,

I suggest going in the opposite direction and starting with an excess (or whatever you have) of actives and adding just enough warm/hot PG to dissolve. It's easy enough to do this with the solution you already have.

Good luck, and I'm sure we're all excited to hear what you find.
 
Vodsel
#17 Posted : 8/7/2013 12:56:25 PM

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fastfred wrote:
You need heat to get a super saturated solution.

Supersaturation would hardly be a solution for the stated purpose, since as soon as the solvent temperature went down once PG is loaded in the cartomizer, DMT would slowly precipitate clogging the device.

What about PEG-400? I recall foaf mentioning "it worked", so perhaps it shows higher DMT solubility than PG.
 
The Neural
#18 Posted : 8/7/2013 8:30:05 PM

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Vodsel wrote:

What about PEG-400? I recall foaf mentioning "it worked", so perhaps it shows higher DMT solubility than PG.


Interesting. Of course, there is no way to recover DMT from PG, so the experiment will proceed with PG, and if there is a hint that it works, PEG-400 may indeed be the next step for experimentation!

What you don't understand, you can make mean anything. - Chuck P.

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Infundibulum
#19 Posted : 8/7/2013 11:23:08 PM

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The Neural wrote:
Vodsel wrote:

What about PEG-400? I recall foaf mentioning "it worked", so perhaps it shows higher DMT solubility than PG.


Interesting. Of course, there is no way to recover DMT from PG, so the experiment will proceed with PG, and if there is a hint that it works, PEG-400 may indeed be the next step for experimentation!

There most certaintly has to be a way; eve though I haven't tried it, If you dilute the PG-dmt mixture in a much greater volume of acetone and then salt it out with FASA you have good chances of getting the DMT back.



Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
Vodsel
#20 Posted : 8/7/2013 11:49:06 PM

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^ that's what I thought too.

You could get an amount of x mg of freebase, split it in half, and keep adding drop by drop PG in one half and PEG-400 in the other. The first to dissolve completely wins, and this way you can also get solubility estimates.

Then mix both with acetone (both PG and PEG-400 are miscible with acetone) and salt the dmt out to recover it. Bada-bing.
 
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