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Datura stramonium: a valuable admixture plant Options
 
polytrip
#61 Posted : 11/7/2009 4:12:59 PM
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Does anybody have an explanation for the differences in effects of these seeds, while as far as i know both hyosciamine and scopolamine affect the same receptors?
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
69ron
#62 Posted : 11/7/2009 6:23:09 PM

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Evening Glory wrote:
69ron wrote:
Those all show hyoscyamine to be the major alkaloid. Of the 13 tests you outlined, 11 show I’m right.
What I did with the numbers, was to prove your statement "the seeds are always high in hyoscyamine" to be completely false. 13 out of 13 tests show that to be false.

You didn't even read the numbers from your own post! What the heck! 11 out of 13 showed they are high are hyoscyamine and support what I said. The rest are from white seeds I am sure.

Evening Glory wrote:
Now, for the white seeds versus black seeds. This is very interesting! I have no information on the color of the seeds from these studies, so this is definitely worth taking up! You do, however, again twist the facts in your direction, trying to make it sound like these tests show white seeds. When in fact, it is not known what kind of seeds it is tested, and when you also have not proven that white seeds in fact are higher in scopolamine than black seeds.


I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend my time digging up the articles that talk about it, I know it pisses you off, but I don't really care. The white seeds are known to be often high in scopolamine. This is a fact. Do the research yourself, and you'll find that out. The fact that you don't know it already shows you didn't do nearly as much research as I have already done.

You think I'm making this up. Once you do the proper research you'll see that the white seeds that are not ready to be picked do contain high amounts of scopolamine and that the black seeds always contain high amounts of hyoscyamine. I've already done research on this long ago and that's what I know from my own research and SWIM’s own experience of using thousands of these seeds.

I can make assumptions on those tests you posted because I know more about the subject of white seeds than you do. Keep researching, you'll find I'm right about that.

Once you do more research and find out I’m correct about the white seeds, you’ll see that study you posted in a totally different light like I do. But until then, you’re taking that one study and getting the data from that study and applying it wrong. They used white seeds where the seeds are high in scopolamine. I know because the other tests out there that compare white seeds to proper black seeds show that to be the case.
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burnt
#63 Posted : 11/7/2009 7:11:37 PM

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I want to know how you can tell the difference between scopolamine and hyoscyamine?

Without chemical analysis you can never assume that one seed has higher levels of either or. Unless of course you know what the pure compound feels like.
 
Ginkgo
#64 Posted : 11/8/2009 12:05:31 AM

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I would very much like to believe you, but I can not believe it without any references! How can you say you don't have time, when you have used at least an hour or two in discussing this already? Show me the scientific supports of your claims!

As you can not prove one single thing of what you are saying, I stil would like to let all you folks know:

ONLY seeds from older Datura stramonium plants will have the desired effects, if you use seeds from young plants, you risk a scopolamine content of 40-60%!
 
burnt
#65 Posted : 11/9/2009 8:56:08 PM

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I took a look at some papers S. Berkov et al fitotherpia 2006

The above paper shows that all parts of datura stramonium, var stramonium,tatula, and godronni contain higher levels of hyoscyamine then scopolamine. They weren't as rigorously quantitative as they could have been but its still clear the trend for higher hyoscyamine.

Does anyone know if the datura with purple leaves is datura stramonium var tatula or datura metel? How can you tell difference they are both supposed to have purple flowers.
 
imPsimon
#66 Posted : 11/9/2009 9:34:37 PM

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burnt wrote:
I want to know how you can tell the difference between scopolamine and hyoscyamine?

Without chemical analysis you can never assume that one seed has higher levels of either or. Unless of course you know what the pure compound feels like.


When chewing for example inoxia (high scopolamine) or stramonium (high hyoscyamine) seeds, There's a very
different alkaloid taste from the different seeds.

...love those stramonium, they taste like medicine cabinet=)...
 
Ginkgo
#67 Posted : 11/9/2009 10:01:02 PM

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burnt wrote:
I took a look at some papers S. Berkov et al fitotherpia 2006

The above paper shows that all parts of datura stramonium, var stramonium,tatula, and godronni contain higher levels of hyoscyamine then scopolamine. They weren't as rigorously quantitative as they could have been but its still clear the trend for higher hyoscyamine.

Yes, all Datura stramonium plants with a certain age has a majority of hyoscyamine, but younger plants tend to have a roughly 50:50 ratio. It is important to know if your seeds have 10 % or 40 % scopolamine, as the effects will be quite different. It looks like the best way to be sure of this, is to only use seeds from older plants, and only use brown/black seeds, not white ones.

burnt wrote:
Does anyone know if the datura with purple leaves is datura stramonium var tatula or datura metel? How can you tell difference they are both supposed to have purple flowers.
Datura metel has a slightly different leaf shape, it is less ragged than the leaves of Datura stramonium. In addition, Datura stramonium var. Tatula has a distinct lighter color than Datura metel, and is often white at the edge of the flower.
 
burnt
#68 Posted : 11/10/2009 8:33:39 AM

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Quote:
Datura metel has a slightly different leaf shape, it is less ragged than the leaves of Datura stramonium. In addition, Datura stramonium var. Tatula has a distinct lighter color than Datura metel, and is often white at the edge of the flower.


Thanks for info. SWIM thinks he had a metel plant. I got attacked by insects but seeds are mature so will plant again next year.
 
69ron
#69 Posted : 11/15/2009 10:17:08 PM

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imPsimon wrote:
burnt wrote:
I want to know how you can tell the difference between scopolamine and hyoscyamine?

Without chemical analysis you can never assume that one seed has higher levels of either or. Unless of course you know what the pure compound feels like.


When chewing for example inoxia (high scopolamine) or stramonium (high hyoscyamine) seeds, There's a very
different alkaloid taste from the different seeds.

...love those stramonium, they taste like medicine cabinet=)...


Taste is one thing, but hyoscyamine is a stimulant, and scopolamine is a sedative. They feel completely different.

Try 5 black fully developed Datura stramonium seeds. There’s noticeable euphoria and noticeable but mild stimulation felt. The following day try 5 Datura inoxia seeds, and there’s noticeable but mild sedation felt and little euphoria if any. At that dose they feel nothing alike at all. No one would ever confuse the two.

Even at high doses they are very different. Both can cause delirium, but scopolamine makes you sleepy, almost in a coma like state, while hyoscyamine tends to make people more active. Hyoscyamine is considered by some to be more dangerous to use as a deliriant because people delirious on hyoscyamine tend to walk around bumping into walls, hitting people etc., while people delirious on scopolamine usually have a hard time moving around and just sit there.

SWIM knows how to isolate scopolamine from hyoscyamine from both D. inoxia and D. stramonium and has experienced them extremely diluted in pure form.

NOTE: it is VERY DANGEROUS TO EXTRACT HYOSCYAMINE AND SCOPOLAMINE. Do not attempt it. And no, I will NOT post the tech for it. If you want to know how it’s done, do the research yourself. I will not help you. There are several techs out there available on the web detailing every step designed for professionals, and should only be used by people who really know what they are doing. Concentrated scopolamine and hyoscyamine are very dangerous to have around. A very tiny amount can kill you. Scopolamine can soak into your skin and kill you. It only takes a few milligrams to kill you. Safe doses are below 1.5 milligrams. That’s a very tiny amount. It’s very dangerous, and more dangerous than pure strychnine is.
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Observant
#70 Posted : 11/20/2009 1:33:15 PM

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Hyoscyamine more or less = Atropine ?!
Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
Ginkgo
#71 Posted : 11/21/2009 5:20:01 PM

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Observant wrote:
Hyoscyamine more or less = Atropine ?!

Yes. Atropine is a mixture with equal amounts of D-hyoscyamine and L-hyoscyamine.
 
imPsimon
#72 Posted : 11/21/2009 5:38:51 PM

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Evening Glory wrote:
Observant wrote:
Hyoscyamine more or less = Atropine ?!

Yes. Atropine is a mixture with equal amounts of D-hyoscyamine and L-hyoscyamine.


Is there any difference in effects between D-hyoscyamine and L-hyoscyamine?
 
Ginkgo
#73 Posted : 11/21/2009 6:23:26 PM

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I am not sure, but I know L-hyoscyamine is more potent.
 
lobo
#74 Posted : 3/9/2020 10:54:38 PM

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Anyone know the alkaloid content in datura wrightii?
 
dithyramb
#75 Posted : 3/10/2020 8:56:31 AM

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Thanks for the valuable info, 69ron. So hyoscyamine is more euphoric and stimulating whereas scopolamine is more sedating, which means Datura stramonium is more euphoric and stimulating and Datura innoxia is more sedating.

I have been into mandrake for a l while now, haven't done a lot of experiments. The major alkaloid in the root seems to be atropine. I assume atropine is also more euphoric and stimulating?
 
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