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Datura stramonium: a valuable admixture plant Options
 
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#21 Posted : 5/10/2009 11:28:29 PM

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Any witches out there know the effects of long term use? Ie: Microdosing daily for intestinal/dream work for 2 weeks.
 

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Ginkgo
#22 Posted : 5/11/2009 10:18:08 PM

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polytrip wrote:
I believe that amanita and datura-alkaloïds cancelout eachother. Datura is sayd to be antidote for fly-agaric overdose and viceversa.

Oh yeah, that does indeed sound correct. I might try some Datura and Amanita together, just to see if they really cancel eachother out. Smile
 
ohayoco
#23 Posted : 5/11/2009 10:24:59 PM
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We all know that datura can be fatal at a certain dose. But what is the precise nature of the toxicity?

-A high dose of lead is deadly, and while a low dose is tolerable, it accumulates in the body and can again lead to death after repeated low doses.
-While smoking tobacco can also be deadly, and is always damaging, but in small amounts the damage is repaired (say, 1 cigarette per week).
-Whereas a tuna sandwich is harmless until overdose (eating too many tuna sandwiches!)

Is datura like lead, tobacco, or tuna sandwiches?!
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Ginkgo
#24 Posted : 5/11/2009 10:51:33 PM

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ohayoco wrote:
We all know that datura can be fatal at a certain dose. But what is the precise nature of the toxicity?

-A high dose of lead is deadly, and while a low dose is tolerable, it accumulates in the body and can again lead to death after repeated low doses.
-While smoking tobacco can also be deadly, and is always damaging, but in small amounts the damage is repaired (say, 1 cigarette per week).
-Whereas a tuna sandwich is harmless until overdose (eating too many tuna sandwiches!)

Is datura like lead, tobacco, or tuna sandwiches?!

All the alkaloids gets metabolized and excreted through the urine in short time, therefore it does not accumulate in the body as lead. To my knowledge, it has never been proven that Datura is always damaging like tobacco. If it is, you propably need high doses quite often, as Datura/Brugmansia and it's alkaloids have been and is still being used both recreationally, medicinally and most important spiritualistic.

Therefore, I believe it is like tuna sandwiches - harmless until you overdose.
 
The Traveler
#25 Posted : 5/11/2009 11:22:09 PM

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ohayoco wrote:
Is datura like lead, tobacco, or tuna sandwiches?!


We really DO need a page for oneliners like this one. Very happy
 
fourthripley
#26 Posted : 5/11/2009 11:33:40 PM
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Evening Glory wrote:
polytrip wrote:
I believe that amanita and datura-alkaloïds cancelout eachother. Datura is sayd to be antidote for fly-agaric overdose and viceversa.

Oh yeah, that does indeed sound correct. I might try some Datura and Amanita together, just to see if they really cancel eachother out. Smile


No no no no no. Atropine is the standard treatment for muscarinic mushroom poisoning; there are documented cases of persons with accidental Amanita inebriation treated in error with atropine leading to potentiation of the effects. Amanita and Datura have similar modes of action.
mistakes were made
 
Ginkgo
#27 Posted : 5/11/2009 11:39:16 PM

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Oh well, in that case it is even more interesting. Just add 1-3 seeds to combat the nausea from the Amanita, the potentiating of the effects is welcome. Pleased
 
ohayoco
#28 Posted : 5/12/2009 12:37:14 AM
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Evening Glory wrote:
All the alkaloids gets metabolized and excreted through the urine in short time, therefore it does not accumulate in the body as lead. To my knowledge, it has never been proven that Datura is always damaging like tobacco.

Thanks. I guess there is also the option that low doses of datura could create minor irreparable damage, that accumulates over time and eventually could become problematic. Anyone know? I ask because SWIM's interest in these magic seeds has been aroused thanks to these threads.

Glad you liked my layman's analoy Traveler, it made me chuckle when I thought it up! Laughing
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 
69ron
#29 Posted : 5/12/2009 4:09:24 AM

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Hyoscyamine, a little scopolamine and traces of atropine are responsible for the effects of Datura stramonium seeds. All of these have been used medicinally for centuries in the forms of herbal pant extracts and more recently as isolated alkaloids. There are no known long term health effects associate with the use of tropane alkaloids.

Look up Levsin. Levsin is just hyoscyamine. Some people use it everyday for years and don’t develop health problems.

Here’s what one manufacturer says about hyoscyamine, “No long-term studies in animals have been performed to determine the carcinogenic, mutagenic or impairment of fertility potential of Levsin; however, 40 years of marketing experience with hyoscyamine sulfate shows no demonstrable evidence of a problem.” Of course sometimes you can’t really trust a manufacturer to be 100% honest about the health risks of their products.

In rats, the LD50 for hyoscyamine and atropine is said to be 500 mg/kg orally. In mice orally the LD50 is 75 mg/kg. The LD50 for scopolamine is 17 mg/kg in rats intravenously. I can’t find the oral LD50 for scopolamine so there’s no way to compare the toxicity of it with the others.

For comparison, the LD50 for caffeine is 192 mg/kg in rats orally. So these tropane alkaloids, even though they have a very bad name, are actually less toxic than caffeine! At least in rats that’s the case.

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obliguhl
#30 Posted : 5/21/2009 7:56:26 AM

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Does it alter the mescaline experience to a degree where the spirit of mescaline is lost? My friend from peru doesn't want nausea nor a false first look at mescal.
 
Kannamate
#31 Posted : 5/21/2009 9:12:45 AM

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Dagger wrote:
I tried one seed of datura stramonium 1 hour before bedtime a few days back. Only thing I noticed was slight cotton mouth. I did not fall asleep any faster or sleep better. I think I may have woken up more than usual, although I cannot say for sure that was because of the seed or not. Will have to try again some day.

If I get slight cotton mouth from 1 seed, how would 2 or 3 seeds be?

well hyoscyamine 69ron said is a slight stimulant so that might explain waking up although he did say they cause lucid dreams too.
 
69ron
#32 Posted : 5/21/2009 10:52:54 AM

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obliguhl wrote:
Does it alter the mescaline experience to a degree where the spirit of mescaline is lost? My friend from peru doesn't want nausea nor a false first look at mescal.


It changes the experience, making it more LSD-like, more visual, stronger, blocks the nausea, but it still feels primarily like mescaline. Mescaline is definitely the dominant force in the experience. 1-3 Datura stramonium seeds on their own do almost nothing, at most maybe you’ll feel a little stimulated from the seeds. In combination with mescaline, they seem to expand the effects of mescaline not just make it stronger.

The main difference is in the visuals. They look more LSD like and more colorful. The feeling tone of the experience is like that of mescaline with more mescaline style euphoria. There’s a little more mescaline style insight effects. It’s like it boosts all the psychedelic effects of mescaline but blocks all the bodily effects of it. As you increase the mescaline dosage, it becomes more and more mescaline like as the effects of the seeds get overpowered by the mescaline.

It’s an extremely beautiful experience. It feels like mescaline, but with all the positives of mescaline enhanced and all the negatives of it suppressed.

I recommend trying the seeds on their own first. Some people are very sensitive to Datura stramonium seeds and should use just 1 seed. SWIM can take up to 10 seeds before getting any sensation of dry mouth. He usually uses 3 seeds. When taking the seeds on their own, you should NOT feel dry mouth, you should only feel slight stimulation and slight euphoria and an usual feeling in the stomach for the first 20 minutes. If you feel dry mouth, the dose is too high.

Kannamate wrote:
Dagger wrote:
I tried one seed of datura stramonium 1 hour before bedtime a few days back. Only thing I noticed was slight cotton mouth. I did not fall asleep any faster or sleep better. I think I may have woken up more than usual, although I cannot say for sure that was because of the seed or not. Will have to try again some day.

If I get slight cotton mouth from 1 seed, how would 2 or 3 seeds be?

well hyoscyamine 69ron said is a slight stimulant so that might explain waking up although he did say they cause lucid dreams too.


Dagger, you’re extra sensitive to the seeds. 1 seed doesn’t cause dry mouth in most people. SWIM needs 10 seeds before he feels dry mouth. Maybe your seed was an extra large seed? How much did it weigh? 1 seed usually weighs about 6-8 mg only.

If 1 seed causes dry mouth, don’t use more than 1 seed.

Kannamate, they are said to work for causing lucid dreams, but SWIM hasn’t experienced that. Datura inoxia however seems to work really well for inducing dreams. I don’t know about lucid dreams, but man, it’s the best sleeping aid SWIM ever used.

Datura inoxia seeds are totally different from Datura stramonium seeds. For one, 3 Datura inoxia seeds have very noticeable sedative effects, very mild psychedelic effects, and definite dream enhancing effects for SWIM. And also, they are larger and cream colored rather than black like Datura stramonium. They look totally different. 3 Datura stramonium seeds produce mild stimulation for SWIM, and no effects on the mind at all. He hasn’t noticed any effects on dreaming from them. But others claim Datura stramonium seeds do induce lucid dreams, but SWIM has never experienced that. It seems like their stimulant effects would be counterproductive.

SWIM has taken 3 Datura inoxia seeds before bed several times now. They are very effective dream inducers and sleep aids. He takes them 15 minutes before bed and as soon as he lies down and closes his eyes he immediately starts dreaming. No kidding. That are that good. They work better than anything else SWIM has tried. With 3 Datura stramonium seeds, SWIM doesn’t feel like sleeping at all and actually finds it hard to drift off into a dream.
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Observant
#33 Posted : 5/21/2009 3:22:40 PM

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I want to make a simple suggestion for everyones Datura Trials - one could finely Grind 100 Seeds , weigh them and divide the weight by hundred to get the weight of one average Seed -and then double or triple that weight for a Standard dose of seed powder- thats the easiest way to make Sure you always get the Same dose of Datura Alkaloids- as it usually varies from Seed to Seed
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69ron
#34 Posted : 5/21/2009 6:04:02 PM

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Dagger wrote:
"69ron" wrote:
Dagger, you’re extra sensitive to the seeds. 1 seed doesn’t cause dry mouth in most people. SWIM needs 10 seeds before he feels dry mouth. Maybe your seed was an extra large seed? How much did it weigh? 1 seed usually weighs about 6-8 mg only.

If 1 seed causes dry mouth, don’t use more than 1 seed.

The seed weighed about 10 mg. I felt no mind altering effects from the seed. Only a slight strangeness in my mouth. Also had some thick slime in the back of my mouth when trying to sleep. Kept swallowing.


It could just be that you’re sensitive to just the drying effect it has on some parts of the body. No blurred vision right?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#35 Posted : 5/21/2009 6:17:39 PM

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If the dose was too high you'd notice dry mouth, blurred vision, and some minor mental effects at about 45-60 minutes or even earlier.

If you look at the medical profile for hyoscyamine, dry mouth on its own is considered a common side effect for some people and nothing to worry about. Blurred vision tends to happen at a much higher dose, followed by slight mental impairment at higher doses.

Did you use anything else at the time on the same day or the day before?

Have you since tried a higher dose?
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I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#36 Posted : 5/21/2009 6:59:05 PM

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Well for SWIM, three D. inoxia seeds allow him to fall asleep immediately when the effects kick in. SWIM normally takes a long time to fall asleep. With D. inoxia, he sleeps really fast and has TONS OF DREAMS. For him the dreams start as soon as he lays down and closes his eyes! I don’t know if that’s just SWIM’s reaction to it or not. If ever SWIM has a hard time falling asleep he now uses D. inoxia. The following morning he wakes us feeling really refreshed.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
wake and bacon
#37 Posted : 5/30/2009 4:57:01 PM
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This is all such wonderful info, thank you 69ron. SWIM ordered 25 d. stramonium seeds last week and is awaiting their delivery to personally test using ~3 seeds in conjunction with 2 hits of pretty good LSD.

69ron wrote:
100 micrograms of hyoscyamine is actually REALLY NICE with LSD. It easily makes it about twice as strong. It also goes really well with mescaline and LSA, also making them about twice as strong. It's a fantastic combination. It makes it stronger, more visual, more euphoric, and cuts down on the body load (SWIM usually gets a little body load from pure LSD).


69ron, to effectively dose 100 micrograms of hyoscyamine, how many seeds would you recommend SWIM injest? He reckons (based on the percentages) that 3 would be more than enough... also, when is the best time to injest? SWIM figured around the same time he takes his LSD, but would like clarification (if you happen to have any!) Razz

Thank you.
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69ron
#38 Posted : 5/30/2009 6:45:02 PM

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The seeds typically contain about 0.3% alkaloids (80% being hyoscyamine), but can contain up to 0.7%. 1 average seed is usually about 8 mg. At 0.3% alkaloids, 1 average 8 mg seed would contain about 24 micrograms of alkaloids. So with average sized average potency seeds, 4 would be about 96 micrograms. But some seeds are as heavy as 10 mg, and some contain up to 0.7% alkaloids, so a super potent super large 10 mg seed would contain about 70 micrograms each. So 2 would be about 140 micrograms and 3 would be 210.

Doses of 400-800 micrograms of hyoscyamine (as well as scopolamine) are common doses that doctors prescribe for various conditions. So with super potent super large 10 mg seeds, 11 seeds would contain 770 micrograms and be within this common safe dosage range. 1500 micrograms of hyoscyamine is considered the maximum known safe limit. 21 super large super potent seeds would contain up to 1470 micrograms of alkaloids.

I’d personally not ever go over 10 seeds. 3 seeds are usually just enough for potentiation. It doesn’t take much at all. Try first taking the seeds on their own to judge your sensitivity to the seeds. The dose you’re looking for is the smallest dose needed to feel an unusual feeling in the stomach about 10 minutes into it, very slight stimulation for about 3 hours, and very slight euphoria for about 3 hours. The dose used should not be enough to cause dryness in the mouth, or any other higher dose symptoms (blurred vision, dilated pupils, dry hands, urine retention, etc.).

Take it at the same time as the other psychedelic, repeat the dose after 3 hours if you like. Chew the seeds thoroughly and then swallow them.

SWIM weighs his seeds and uses about 20-25 mg of seeds. That’s usually 3 seeds, sometimes 4, sometimes 2. Doing it by weight rather than seed count gives a more consistent effect.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile


All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
wake and bacon
#39 Posted : 5/30/2009 6:56:11 PM
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This is exactly what SWIM was looking for... thank you once again. He's heeding your advice of taking 3 d. stramonium seeds by themselves first, then trying them with the LSD. He'll make sure to report his findings.
DeadLizard wrote:
Darkbb wrote:
BTW wheres the "Donate" button traveler?

There are 2 ways to donate
one is called "Post Reply" and the other is called "New Topic"
You will find these buttons at the top and bottom of most pages

 
wake and bacon
#40 Posted : 5/30/2009 7:19:37 PM
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I'm curious... would a few seeds also counteract mild nausea from mushrooms? He doesn't ever purge from mushrooms, but certainly gets discomfort around the hour mark. What say you [all]? SWIM is very interested in all the possible uses of these seeds in low doses.
DeadLizard wrote:
Darkbb wrote:
BTW wheres the "Donate" button traveler?

There are 2 ways to donate
one is called "Post Reply" and the other is called "New Topic"
You will find these buttons at the top and bottom of most pages

 
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