NDE
Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia. Near Death Experiences generally have common themes and follow the following progression:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDE#Characteristics

1. A very unpleasant sound;
2. A sense of being dead;
3. Pleasant emotions; calmness and serenity;
4. An out-of-body experience; floating above one's own body;
5. Floating up a tunnel with a strong, bright light at the end;
6. Meeting deceased relatives, spiritual figures, or beings of light(often interpreted as being the deity or deities they personally believe in);
7. Being given a life review;
8. Reaching a border or boundary;
9. Being returned to the body accompanied by a feeling of reluctance.
10. Feeling of warmth.

It is interesting how the DMT experience follows every step of the NDE experience. Over the years, I have collected a lot information from people that I know who have tried DMT. Hearing their stories and reading other DMT stories online eventually led me to make a correlation between the DMT experience and what I knew about the NDE. I guess this correlation has been identified and even studied before... Rick Strassman did a study on it and tried to show a correlation between the experience of death and a DMT experience. Anywho.

The thing that first caught my eye was the common experience of traveling through a tunnel during both NDE and DMT experiences. This is a very common occurrence among my friends. The second thing I noticed was once you get to the end of the tunnel, during both experiences, you generally encounter other beings. The more I began to read into it the more I realized that the two were strongly correlated.

From the initial buzzing sound at the beginning of the DMT experience, reports of losing all contact with the body, people often reporting that they were convinced they had died, the way in which your consciousness seems to meld into a boundless and infinite timespace, tantalizing and amazing feelings and revelations, the transition into another realm through a tunnel and the often occurring entity contact that occurs there, the retraction of the DMT space as one begins to return to reality and eventually back into the body, the reluctance that is often felt when having to return back from such a perfect and amazing place, and the amazing afterglow that it gives.

I can't help but identify a very strong parallel between the two. What does that mean? What does that conclude about the two? Well, I have my theories but no way to prove anything. So, as far as the world is concerned, NOTHING!

So what do I think the DMT space is? What is going on in the universe that allows for this impossible experience to even happen? The feeling I get is that this experience is just impossible... it can't even exist... it CAN NOT happen... but it just did and will continue to every time you or someone else goes there. What do I lack in my understanding of the world that does not allow for this experience to exist. It exists, so I am missing something vital understanding.

So, let me go on... and try to explain what I have been lacking my whole life. There is no me and you in the DMT space. Everything is united in one thing... one field... or one vibration as I have seen it described by both internet psychonauts, friends, great historical figures, and modern day physicists/mathematicians. There are different degrees of how separate the self and 'the other' are in the DMT space but it seems to be MUCH more intertwined.

The separation between the self and 'the other' is a temporarily illusion that is impossible to hold onto in this place. The separation between the self and 'the other' here can be related in the following analogy...

Imagine the sun setting on hilly and partially wooded Midwestern landscape. As the sun slips behind the horizon, a hazy fog slowly begins to form across the land. The fog crawls across the landscape and eventually envelopes everything. As the sun begins to rise the next morning, the sun slowly begins to shine through, disintegrate the fog. As the fog disappears the rays of the sun shine through to the surface of the earth and into the forest.

The fog can be seen as the maha maya(great illusion). In our example it represents the perceived separation between our self(ego) and 'the other.' The setting sun can be seen as our birth into the physical body... and the rising sun is represented by either the DMT experience or physical death.

On earth, the split between the self and 'the other' is a daunting barrier that is impossible to be broken. When we are born into the world we are bounded to our body as thongs bind a chariot. It is only OUR consciousness in OUR body and no one else. There is me and then there is 'you' and 'them'.

And that I think is one of the unique things about Earth... incarnating into a physical realm. That is one thing that Earth has to offer that the DMT space can not. The physical separation here is so strong that is binds our consciousness to this body.

The mystery of the other is one of lifes great mysteries. That is why finding a mate to share a deep meaningful intimate relationship with is so important to human nature... and that is also why friendships, family, community, and humanity as a whole are so important to an awakened and realized mind.

It is very interesting when you mix our earthly experience with the DMT experience. It allows our limited restrained physical incarnation to temporarily become intoxicated with that ancient spiritual wellspring that has been long long forgotten. We can become, understand, feel with all of our senses, and interact with that place... that mysterious 'other' that we so long to understand. We can see a world that can't possibly exist to us. I think that is the source of the impossibleness feeling that I get. To be able to cross that "maha maya". To touch that thing that cannot be touched. It is one of the greatest experiences that most people could only hope to have in ten lifetimes.

There are ecologies of souls there. There seems to be different distinct types of beings that occur with a wide spectrum of DMT smokers. I think that, just as on earth these different cultures of entities reproduce... and have their own distinct 'cultures.' there might be an infinite number of societies... just as on earth... except the laws of physics are a bit different there.

wow, you know stuff. thankyou.

Nice post.



Your brain creates the difference between you and the rest. It even does this with parts of your body depending on what your concentrating on more. Its necessary for survival for it to do this. Now does that mean that we really are one? Well everything is connected in some way shape or form so I would say that is true.

But is our consciousness strictly a product of our mental activity? Can you exist without your brain? Thats the important question. If it can't then all the DMT experience can be explained simply by human brain function. The more I learn about the brain the more ways I see its possible to explain nearly all overall aspects of DMT experience simply based on how it effects neurotransmitter system.

We need more data before it can be put together into a more solid theory.

Yep nothing solid yet but I came to the same conclusion as the OP over the last few days but my method is more technical and a bit more simple.

Yes matter and energy have consciousness but it is very primitive. They only know how to be in their current state; energy or matter. They do not know how to do anything else but be "stuff", just to do what has been doing since it has been created, it is static and repeats the same plane over and over again from electron clouds to galaxy clusters, it tends to cycle around a central point in order to find a working balance.

We should work together, OP

If nature can have laws (I think there's five or six, can't remember)... like gravity for example, I think that, in itself, indicates intelligence, and thus some sort of consciousness. For example, We know nothing about gravity itself.. we know how it behaves, what it does, but we can't say precisely what it is. Perhaps it is this awe-inspiring fact that aids people in believing in creationist theories and what have you.

we are here on Earth, experiencing something that is beyond our comprehension... WHY? (right? thats the question isn't it?)

Through science we have come to the conclusion that we are the result of the self organizing ability of nature.

Gosh I'm not even positive what any of that means. I sure hope that my consciousness will continue, in one way or another, in the absence of my brain. But we don't know for sure either way... we have experiences that suggest the latter, which I believe personally to be the case.

Brunt said "Its necessary for survival for it to do this" referring to how we differentiate ourselves from everything else. Interesting... I think you are right about that. It certainly was necessary in our mental evolution to make that distinguishment... for survivals sake. I think your explain is better than the one that I gave. A lot better =P Even though I suspect my explaination played into it at a smaller degree.

I don't believe that the DMT experience can be explained solely in neurochemical terms. Obviously it can't. I don't think any neurologist would say it could. You would need some kind of psychological theory behind it as well .Even then, the psychological community wouldn't claim they have all the answers either.

I don't know that matter and energy have consciousness. I would suspect that they don't, and if they did it is completely different from our consciousness. Just as a singled cell organism is to us. Matter and energy follow the laws of nature. There isn't any deviation from those laws.

What is OP?



How is that consciousness?



It does not indicate intelligence at all. There are numerous ideas for how the laws of nature could have evolved in manners that follow similar principles of evolution. One being that in different parts of the universe (beyond our current ability to see) could exist many universe all with slightly different variations in the laws of nature that evolved as the universe inflated rapidly billions of years ago. Its called the inflationary model. Another model proposes that universe could go in cycles each cycle evolving the laws of nature until one comes up that we happen to be able to exist in.

There is no indication of any intelligent designer just because the laws of nature allow in our corner of a vast and unseen universe for life to exist.

Remember that in the early universe all the fundamental forces should merge. It is only when the universe expands and cools that these forces emerge with different properties. Depending on quantum fluctuations and how matter and energy clumps together and possibly the shape extra dimensional space takes will cause the laws of nature to become what they are. There is no need for anything to design it.



It means zero need for a designer. Which is why it rocks the world of religion and any belief in conscious beings designing the universe.



True.

I never said anything about a designer, or some divine omnipotent being, I was more suggesting that intelligence is an inherit property of nature.



It designs itself, exactly.



I agree.



That is the question indeed. We need experimental proof... hopefully in our lifetime... until then we are left to experiment on ourselves.

Seems like there is lots of evidence for the brain-consciousness connection.

The oldest and some of the most interesting evidence comes from headwounds and strokes. These have been systematically studied for a couple hundred years. Lesions in very small parts of the brain can have very specific impacts on consciousness. From changing your mood and temper to altering the way the world looks. Larger lesions can eliminate all consciousness without killing the body. Systematic analysis of lesions and consequential changes in perception and behavior gave humans the first clues to what might be going on.

Much newer data come from imaging studies that can tell where your brain is most active. Now we can make a prediction: Lets bet that the areas that are necessary for a certain aspect of consciousness, say, recognizing a familiar face will be the ones that light up when a persons consciousness if focused on discriminating familiar faces. This prediction has always come true for everything studied so far.

Also the fact that small molecules that interact with receptors in the brain trigger alterations of consciousness is powerfull evidence for the brain-mind theory.

Yes I could have writen that post myself. It all seems to boil down to one then but wait it can not be one it can not be two.

I dont beleive in not beleiving.

Well the 'why' question is not actually answerable. If you don't believe me read about the history of 'teleology.' It is still fun to consider such imponderables but no real progress can be made. There can be no truth in our teleologies. This is an awesomely liberating thing. This means your own personal teleology can be anything you need it to be for your own wellness.

We can get a lot of traction into 'how?' though. We can find truth down this road. The distinction here is between mechanism and purpose. Our brains are really well suited to dissecting out the mechanisms of nature. It is impossible for our brains to ferret out the purpose of nature so we have to make that part up. Problems only arise when these two ways of understanding the cosmos clash.

I just want to emphasize that both are important questions but some people are more suited to pondering one or the other. It is so sweet to have teleological systems that harmonize with our mechanistic understandings.

Cool. Sometimes I just bring up these points to try and piece together what people mean because its hard to tell from just their writings. Anyway interesting point.

All of which is circumstantial evidence... there is a bounty of circumstantial evidence on both sides of this argument. Point me to a study with conclusive results, I don't mean that in a douchey way, I am interested in learning.

There is no proof that consciousness is located somewhere in the brain. If it is the result of a massive neurological orgy of synapses, then so be it, I am 100% open to being corrected.

What kind of evidence do you require? I like to think of these kinds of things in terms of necessity and sufficiency. We can ask: Is the brain necessary for consciousness? Is the brain sufficient for consciousness?
Would this be satisfactory?

You're right about the question of WHY it is rendered useless by the fact that we just cannot answer it, and shouldn't have to. If you spend your whole life wondering why, you will have really missed out... or you might end up a fundamentalist christian

I've never heard the term teleological, I will look that up.

.... this reminds me, has you seen the movie Religulous by Bill Maher? I'm sure you'd all dig it.

That is absolutely satisfactory.

970 there is more then circumstantial evidence. I also don't see any real evidence for a soul besides reports of people seeing ghosts or having NDE's and other things like that. Theres obviously a lot out there about that kind of stuff and it certainly happens to people, but all of those phenomenon can also fit into the mind in brain model. Lets make two models mind in brain and leaky brain (john lilly coined these terms).

There are many cases of people with similar brain injuries having similar problems. What makes it also interesting is that people have now looked deeper into these peoples brains and metabolism to see what parts are involved. Also there are ways to induce certain effects by stimulating this part or that part or taking this drug or that drug or doing this excersize or that one.

There is a cool documentary that I posted a while back called "Secrets of the mind" or something like that. Its a good summary about how interesting the brain is. The point is though there are lots of data to answer the question that the brain certainly influences consciousness.

I always think the brain is necessary for consciousness because when you die your dead. Nothing is going on anymore you aren't here. So if you consciousness is your soul it should go somewhere. It could dissipate as I'd imagine all your energy starts to do as you die but then it just changes form. So in a way your energy just goes on to becoming something else. But does that mean that your consciousness goes with it? I don't know but there is no evidence that it does. Theres also no evidence that your energy leaves into another inhabital dimension to go on with memories of your life etc.

So in a sense the buddhist philosophy is correct when it talks about the void and nothingness and nirvana. But to me what all that means is that you cease. Maybe being one sounds cool but really it means you with all your memories and experiences ceases to exist. Thats the scariest thing and its why I think religion evolved. Buddhism just attempts to look at in a positive light and accept it.

Of course there is the quantum mechanical type principles about information that no information is ever lost except if hawking's blackhole theories were correct but it seems like they might not be so in a way maybe all information will always exist forever until the universe ceases to exist. So maybe in that sense we are eternal. But again its a far cry from the existence we are used too and doesn't need to involve "us" at all.

Sorry I am baked and rambling and I don't know what i just typed.

Don't apologize, that's absurd, I'm always interested in what you have to say. I like to get baked too.

I like what you said about Buddha.

I have read some very well documented cases in which incredibly accurate information is recovered, that cannot be explained by any sort of normal perception, while in a state such as NDE, OBE etc... I guess some are just too incredible, no one will believe anything a scientist has to say about this subject, especially if they show any sort of support of the implications, which is unfortunate.

^^Any sources for these cases?

I certainly find all altered states can have an ability to make us learn things or understand things in another way that may be more accurate then our waking state. I think this has a lot to do with unlocking creative, and observation abilities. But I dunno would be intersting to know more.

In the book The Holographic Universe by Micheal Talbot, about half the book is filled with cases such as these, all of them cited. Perhaps I can dig up some other sources, I haven't actually done any reading on this topic in long time.

I would think that you would like the Holographic theory, one main point of the book is to explain supernatural events and phenomena through strictly scientific means. However, it was written in 1987, so I'd be curious as to how the theory has changed.