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Datura strumonium vs. Datura inoxia Options
 
69ron
#1 Posted : 4/23/2009 5:57:52 PM

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SWIM has tried Datura stramonium (Jimson weed) many times and likes safe low doses (1-3 seeds) as a lucid dream enhancer. Last night he tried 1 seed about 1 hour before bed. This was enough to induce quite a lot of dreams.

SWIM thoroughly chews one seed weighing 8 mg (it's quite good tasting actually) in his mouth and swallows it. With a maximum of 0.7% alkaloids one 8 mg seed can contain up to 56 micrograms of alkaloids, mostly hyoscyamine, but in most cases it will contain half that much.

After about 15 minutes, there's an odd feeling in the stomach and some slight stimulant effects felt. After 20 minutes, the stimulant effect starts to die down, and his body feels a little like he's taken LSD laced with tropane alkaloids, so he knows it's working. After 30 minutes some pleasant mild euphoria is felt. After 40 minutes there's a mild anti-histamine like feel to it but without any sedation at all. After 60 minutes he goes to sleep.

At this point there are no mental effects of any kind, except when he lays in bed with his eyes closed, dreams start almost immediately before he even fall asleep. Within about 5 minutes he falls asleep. It usually takes him about 30 minutes to fall asleep. The Datura stramonium really helps put him to sleep.

So that's pretty typical for SWIM. He normally uses 1-3 seeds and no more than that.

For Datura stramonium the maximum safe pharmaceutical dose recommended is 10 seeds so SWIM never takes anything close to 10 seeds. Overdoses of Datura stramonium are very unpleasant, causing delirium and many fatalities have occurred so never go beyond the recommended 10 seed maximum pharmaceutical dose. At a maximum of 0.7% alkaloids, 10 large 10 mg seeds (most seeds are about 8 mg) could contain 700 micrograms of alkaloids (mostly hyoscyamine) which is a safe adult dose. Hyoscyamine is safe up to 1500 micrograms for an adult. The usual adult dose is 125 micrograms taken 3 times a day.

SWIM has never tried Datura inoxia. Datura inoxia is preferred by Native American shamans, but they typically take overdoses of it to induce delirium. SWIM is not interested in that practice because it's very dangerous and he's not at all interested in being delirious.

What's the difference between Datura stramonium and Datura inoxia? Can anyone explain the difference? From what I've read Datura inoxia is primarily scopolamine while Datura stramonium is primarily hyoscyamine. I've heard that the two are very similar but scopolamine is a sedative while hyoscyamine is a stimulant. Is that true? Are there any other differences between these two herbs?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 

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'Coatl
#2 Posted : 4/23/2009 5:58:31 PM

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Wow 69ron, please be careful. It seems you are being EXTREMELY careful! Which is good!

We can't lose you man!

Perhaps add a little disclaimer...

I have never used Datura because well, I have watched people use it and had reports told to my by friends (the ones I watched) and it is, in a word- INSANE. Datura (to me) seems to have effects which are very delirious in nature, I would not use in anyway. However.... I would (and have) smoke Brugmansia flowers and snort Brugmansia pollen, this is by far the safest and shortest lasting way to achieve effects from this Baneful flower, just be VERY careful!

Never smoke more than one whole flower! I don't remember the dosage for pollen, it was a good bit.

WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
69ron
#3 Posted : 4/23/2009 6:39:07 PM

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SWIM takes 1-3 seeds usually and never more than 10 seeds. That dosage range is safe for Datura stramonium and has been used medicinally for ages. Datura stramonium is extremely dangerous when you go beyond 10 seeds. People seeking delirium usually take 50-100 seeds or more. That is extremely dangerous, has killed people, made them permanently insane, put people into comas, etc.

So yeah, Datura stramonium is very dangerous if you take too much. But when taking 1-3 seeds you are well within the safe pharmaceutical dosage range (1-10 seeds) for adults, but you need to be absolutely sure the seeds are Datura stramonium and NOT one of it's relatives with heavier seeds containing more alkaloids. Each seed should weigh about 5-10 mg. If they weigh more than 10 mg, they are probably NOT Datura stramonium. It's always a good idea to weigh the seeds to be sure you're not ingesting more than 100 mg of seeds. I would recommend no more than 30 mg of seeds (about 3 large seeds) because some people are very sensitive to hyoscyamine.

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE DATURA STRAMONIUM OR ANY SIMILAR PLANTS WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. NEVER TAKE PSYCHOACTIVE DOSES TO PRODUCE DELIRIUM. PSYCHOACTIVITY HAPPENS AT NEAR OVERDOSE LEVELS AND SUCH DOSES HAVE KILLED THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. NEVER TAKE MORE THAN 10 SEEDS! 1-3 SEEDS ARE WHAT I RECOMMEND. THAT DOSE WILL NOT CAUSE PSYCHOACTIVITY BUT IS EFFECTIVE FOR INDUCING LUCID DREAMS. THIS IS NOT A DRUG FOR TRIPPING!
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970Codfert
#4 Posted : 4/25/2009 10:11:06 PM

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I have never had interest in Datura before, but I love to lucid dream, maybe I will give this a shot... with great caution.

My buddy drank some tea from this random guy that was made with Datura and he lost his mind. really hilarious story, but kinda frightening. The cops found him in a Gart Sports parking lot running around waving his shirt over his head at about 11:00 pm. They had no idea what to make of him after they discovered he wasn't drunk or on LSD.

Don't drink tea from the weird hippie guy at Perkins.
All posts are fictional.
 
69ron
#5 Posted : 4/26/2009 1:42:53 AM

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The amount used for lucid dreaming is no more than 10 seeds of Datura stramonium. That’s a safe dose and it will not cause delirium.

Why do these overdose stories always pop up when I talk about Datura? In order to experience what your friend experienced you need to take a massive overdose of tropane alkaloids. No one should be doing that. It’s very dangerous. You can get permanent brain damage or even die from that.

Don’t use more than 10 seeds. Some sources state 20 seeds as the maximum safe medical dose of Datura stramonium seeds, others state 10 as the maximum. 20 is actually the safe limit according to maximum alkaloid content in the seeds, but to be extra cautious I would stand by the 10 seeds maximum safe dose for Datura stramonium seeds because you never know how sensitive you might be to the seeds. Always weigh them. Don’t take more than 100 mg of seeds (that’s 10 large seeds) and you’ll be within safe limits.

There are three really good uses for safe microdoses of Datura stramonium:

* Datura stramonium microdoses are extremely effective for alleviating nausea.
* Datura stramonium microdoses induce lucid dreaming.
* Datura stramonium microdoses greatly potentiate the effects of psychedelics (mescaline, psilocybin, LSD, bufotenine, ayahuasca, and even marijuana)

Again, I’m talking about microdoses of 1-10 seeds only, taken once in a day. 10 large 10 mg seeds can contain up to 700 micrograms of hyoscyamine (as well as a little scopolamine and traces of atropine). The maximum safe adult dose of hyoscyamine is 1500 micrograms. If you take more than that you’re getting into dangerous territory.

Please no more delirium stories. This thread is about safe use of Datura, not overdosing on it to become delirious.

I really want to know what the difference between the effects of Datura stramonium and Datura inoxia are. SWIM only has experience with Datura stramonium seeds and not Datura inoxia. Does anyone have any experience with both of these?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#6 Posted : 4/26/2009 7:45:33 AM

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Yes you do. You feel very well rested the following day. Datura stramonium is actually a mild stimulant in small doses, not a sedative. It's odd that you can easily fall asleep from it. Datura inoxia is said to be more of a sedative. Datura stramonium is high is hyoscyamine and Datura inoxia is high in scopolamine. Scopolamine is much more sedating so Datura inoxia should help you sleep more.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
kemist
#7 Posted : 4/28/2009 11:24:01 AM

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There are many alkaloids in this plants. Check out this book http://books.google.co.u...qE_A&hl=en#PPA95,M1
Have heard that d. stramonium contain: anisodine (daturamine), l-hyoscyamine, atropine, l-skopolamine, apoatropine, belladonine, nikotine

Apart what you know (atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine)
In d. inoxia were found α- and β-scopodonnines http://www.springerlink....ntent/r32pl50335841k74/

Apparently major alkaloid in Datura wrightii would be a scopolamine. D. Wrightii looks a bit safer
Wikipedia wrote:
Datura wrightii is a sacred plant that has been used in sacred ceremonies and rites of passage by Chumash, Tongva, and other tribes. Among the Chumash, when a boy was 8 years old, his mother gave him a preparation of momoy to drink. This was supposed to be a spiritual challenge to the boy to help him develop the spiritual wellbeing that is required to become a man. Not all of the boys survived.[1] Momoy is a spiritual plant that helps with spiritual wellbeing among adults also. For instance, during a frightening situation, such as when seeing a coyote walk like a man, a leaf of momoy is sucked to help keep the soul in the body. The plant was also used to tell the future, especially when gambling.

Quote:
Regarding Datura, among the Navajo is the folk admonition, "Eat a little, and go to sleep. Eat some more, and have a dream. Eat some more, and don't wake up."

Those plants are very interesting indeed. In wise man hands they could be very useful,but junkies shouldn`t touch them!!!
As a kemist I never met ILPT in physical form and never talk to him. He share his wisdom, trough my mind, telepathicly only. Please don`t prosecute me, for his possible illegal activities. He is bonkers about chemistry and doesn`t even exist in this primitive reality !!!
 
benzyme
#8 Posted : 4/30/2009 2:28:49 AM

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swim used to eat at least 50 seeds, 100 tops , and he would feel really shitty for at least 8 hours.

in retrospect, he thinks it was stupid to pursue such a stupor
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69ron
#9 Posted : 5/4/2009 6:29:24 PM

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SWIM got his D. inoxia seeds this morning and took 2 of them, one large and one small, weighing a total of 15 mg. At 0.44% scopolamine per seed being typical that amounts to about 66 micrograms of scopolamine. That’s a very small dose

The effects were lightly noticeable in about 5 minutes and peaked after about 45 minutes.

The effects of 2 seeds of D. inoxia are totally different from the effects of 2 seeds of D. stramonium. SWIM could not detect any similarities between the two effects other than the presence of light euphoria.

2 seeds of D. stramonium produced mild stimulation, very mild euphoria, and for about 15 minutes at the onset an unusual feeling in the stomach. No mind altering effects were felt, not even the slightest bit. Chewing the seeds, the flavor was slightly similar to the taste of jalapeno seeds. The seeds are dark, almost black.

2 seeds of D. inoxia produced a slightly sedated feeling, with mild euphoria of a different nature, and was definitely but very slightly mind altering (I think most people would not even notice the mind altering effect of it at this dose). No other effects were felt. It was pleasant, very smooth. The seeds tasted totally different from D. stramonium, being sort of nutty and bready tasting. The seeds are very light tan in color.

D. inoxia seems to be weaker overall but has more affects on the mind.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
'Coatl
#10 Posted : 5/4/2009 8:43:33 PM

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Datura wrightii sounds good.

Is there a Baneful plant which contains ONLY scopolamine?


***1500th post ascended to "Infinite Being"***
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!

I am Teotzlcoatl, older cousin of Quetzalcoatl. My most famous physical incarnation was Nezahualcoyotl, but I have taken many forms since the dawn of the cosmos. In this realm I manifest as multiple entities at a single time. I am many, I am numbered. I am few, but more than one. I am a multifaceted being, a winged serpent with many heads. We are Teotzlcoatl.

"We Are The One's We've Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb
 
Kannamate
#11 Posted : 5/5/2009 3:07:16 AM

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do you think that 10 minutes before doing whatever substance is optimal for chewing the seeds,or should you take it a little earlier depending on what you are using?
 
69ron
#12 Posted : 5/5/2009 4:40:36 AM

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Kannamate wrote:
do you think that 10 minutes before doing whatever substance is optimal for chewing the seeds,or should you take it a little earlier depending on what you are using?


I'm not sure and I can't find any information about it either.

'Coatl wrote:
Datura wrightii sounds good.

Is there a Baneful plant which contains ONLY scopolamine?


***1500th post ascended to "Infinite Being"***


Well Datura inoxia seeds contain up to 0.44% alkaloids with 97% of that being scopolamine so that’s nearly pure scopolamine. I don’t know of any natural source that is more pure than that. The rest of the plant is higher in other alkaloids. Pretty much all the scopolamine sold by prescription is extracted from Datura inoxia. It contains more scopolamine that any other plant.

I’m curious why scopolamine and not hyoscyamine is usually prescribed for motion sickness. Hyoscyamine is effective at lower doses and has a much larger window of safety. It seems to also work to prevent nausea. Scopolamine is said to be 2-5 times more toxic than hyoscyamine, and has much stronger effects on the mind and at much lower doses. Most sources state that as a drug of commerce, scopolamine is far more valuable than hyoscyamine. Does anyone know why?
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
Kannamate
#13 Posted : 5/5/2009 5:43:54 AM

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69ron wrote:
I'm not sure and I can't find any information about it either.


that's the only time frame(10 mins) SWIY used though right just for smoked bufotenin and oral mescaline so far, or have you experimented with more?
 
69ron
#14 Posted : 5/5/2009 10:20:30 AM

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The only reason SWIM used 10 minutes is because it was convenient. It takes a few minutes to thoroughly chew the seeds. SWIM was keeping track of time and making notes at various time intervals, so he just picked 10 minutes because it’s easy to keep track of 10 minute time frame offsets.

SWIM has so far only mixed Datura stramonium with ORAL bufotenine and oral mescaline. Not smoked bufotenine. The reason SWIM initially tried it with oral bufotenine was because SWIM gets lots of nausea from oral bufotenine. He doesn’t get any nausea from smoked bufotenine (his is about 99% pure white bufotenine). For some reason, oral bufotenine always causes nausea. So as a test of the anti-nausea effects of the seeds, SWIM tried it first with oral bufotenine and found that it completely blocked the nausea from it, and also enhanced the effects a little bit.

SWIM doesn’t get nausea from mescaline. He combined it with mescaline because he heard that tropane alkaloids can potentiate the effects of mescaline. They definitely do, that’s for sure.

SWIM hasn’t tried anything else YET, but he’s planning to try it with an LSA extract from HBWR seeds.

In the past, when LSD was available to SWIM, some of the nicer hits of acid had a little tropane alkaloids added to them. It was likely hyoscyamine and not scopolamine judging by the effects. A few batches had too much and that stuff was crappy, but the stuff that had just the right amount was very nice. All you need is about 50-150 micrograms of hyoscyamine to potentiate the effects of LSD. That easily fits onto blotter paper along with the LSD and it’s CHEAP, especially if you extract it from Datura stramonium which anyone capable of synthesizing LSD from ergot would have the skills to do. (NOTE: it is VERY DANGEROUS to extract tropane alkaloids. If you get as little as 1 mg on your skin it can soak in and cause effects. Same is true for LSD, so any good LSD chemist would be skilled enough to do it properly.)

Because LSD is so nice with tropane alkaloids, SWIM believes the combination with LSA will be pretty good. The nice thing about being able to mix it yourself is that you can use just the right amount for that extra kick without using too much and ruining it.

When potentiating other psychedelics with tropane alkaloids there seems to be a sweet spot, go over it and it’s not so good, go under it and there’s no potentiation.

SWIM has yet to try scopolamine (Datura inoxia seeds have an alkaloid mix that’s 97% scopolamine) in conjunction with another psychedelic. Scopolamine is a sedative even in microdoses. SWIM doesn’t usually like mixing sedatives with other things. The 2 seeds of scopolamine he tried earlier were pleasant, mildly euphoric, mildly sedating and had extremely mild mind altering effects. It’s possible that scopolamine will potentiate the effects of other psychedelics more than hyoscyamine because it crosses the blood brain barrier easier so it’s much more psychoactive.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
69ron
#15 Posted : 5/9/2009 7:22:46 PM

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SWIM is gaining some experience with Datura inoxia. The effects of microdoses are very different from those of Datura stramonium.

SWIM is using the safe 1-3 seed dosage range for both of these. (NEVER USE MORE THAN 10 IN A DAY.)

At the 1-3 seed dosage range, Datura inoxia and Datura stramonium are nothing at all alike.

Datura inoxia is a great sleep aid. SWIM is one of those people who usually wakes up in the middle of the night and has to go back to sleep again. Sometimes this happens 2-3 times in a night. He’s tried using 2-3 seeds at night right before bed to test their lucid dreaming capabilities. He hasn’t had any lucid dreams yet but in both cases he had tons of dreams and slept throughout the night without waking up once. The last time he did this was last night when he used 3 seeds. He had tons of dreams and woke up feeling refreshed.

Datura inoxia is by far one of the best sleeping aids SWIM has ever tried. At 2-3 seeds he doesn’t feel anything other than light sedation, light euphoria, and some very slight psychedelic effects.


Psychedelic? Huh?

I want to go into the subject of the psychedelic effects of Datura inoxia a bit here because I’ve not read much about it. For SWIM 3 seeds of Datura inoxia are enough to experience very light psychedelic effects, overshadowed by sedation. There’s no mental clouding at that dose. He can think very clearly. Last night, he took the seeds about 1 hour before going to sleep so he went to sleep during their peak effects. Right before sleep he was having very light visual effects. He’s always read about the dangerous life threatening hallucination filled delirium these seeds can cause at high doses, but this was nothing like that. His mind felt clear, focused, he had no dry mouth, etc., so the dose was no wear near a delirium dose, but he did have definite visual effects from it. The visuals were sort of LSD-like.

He was very surprised by this because he’s always read that their effects were nothing like those of the typical psychedelics. For him, it was lightly PSYCHEDELIC and nothing related to delirium. WHY IS THAT? That seems to go against everything I’ve read about these seeds. Is SWIM somehow affected differently by Datura inoxia? At the 3 seed dose, closing his eyes and relaxing lead to immediate dream-like sequences occurring. Upon opening his eyes, the dreams vanished completely and there were light psychedelic style visuals seen.

3 Datura stramonium seeds have no mental or visual effects at all, but they do feel stronger than Datura inoxia. The same dose of Datura inoxia feels weaker but has definite sedative and visual effects for SWIM.


This doesn’t seem right. I thought the effects were supposed to be nothing like the classic psychedelics and yet SWIM experienced LSD-style visual effects from them.

Is this not normal? Does anyone have any input here?
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redeyesmj
#16 Posted : 5/10/2009 2:03:13 AM

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When swim was a younger man we o.d. on datura strumonium and never tryed it again untill the other day as 69rons tek. But before swim o.d. and never did it again he experimented with it a little. he used to smoke it and it was pretty colorfull and sedative for a quople of hours. Smoking them was not a bad experince he just pushed it too far and made tea and then never did the stuff again recently.
 
Kannamate
#17 Posted : 5/10/2009 9:09:45 AM

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69ron wrote:
This doesn’t seem right. I thought the effects were supposed to be nothing like the classic psychedelics and yet SWIM experienced LSD-style visual effects from them.

Is this not normal? Does anyone have any input here?


Swim is not surprised he did Dimenhydrinate(also a deleriant hallucinogen) when he was younger and received light visuals like ripples,numbers blinking/changing,objects appearing he could easily tell none of this was real. SWIM just didn't do too much to become delerious so he knew what's real and what's not. Those days are long gone for swim and tolerance made it not work eventually months apart. What kind of things did swim see was there any body load,or feeling of being weighed down?
 
arimane
#18 Posted : 5/10/2009 2:12:40 PM

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Thanks for sharing your experiments, 69ron, I found them really interesting!

But I've a question for you: how much do you wait bitween every datura assumption?
As I know, theorically, I've never used, it can have a dangerous cumulative effect if taken too often during few-days-time... I've heard of waiting 10 days to be sure, but the infos about datura are very confusing on the net.


What do you think about it, and how do you act?

=)
Bad, bad english
 
69ron
#19 Posted : 5/10/2009 7:15:39 PM

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arimane wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experiments, 69ron, I found them really interesting!

But I've a question for you: how much do you wait bitween every datura assumption?
As I know, theorically, I've never used, it can have a dangerous cumulative effect if taken too often during few-days-time... I've heard of waiting 10 days to be sure, but the infos about datura are very confusing on the net.


What do you think about it, and how do you act?

=)


Accumulation is more a problem with large doses because they slow down your digestive system, but these microdoses don’t have this problem as much because your digestive system is still functioning well enough to flush them out pretty quickly. For example, a large dose can cause effects lasting for up to 3 days, while a microdose such as 1-3 seeds only produces effects for about 4 hours.

SWIM doesn’t take more than 3 seeds at once, never more than 10 in a day, and never takes them more than 2 days in a row. He has never noticed a build up of effects from them.

Keep in mind that tropane alkaloids are used all the time for medical reasons. Some people use them everyday for certain conditions. As long as the dose is low enough, there’s no possibility of a toxic buildup because the body is still functioning properly.

I’ve heard of people taking 10 seeds everyday for a week or more and after a while experiencing a build up of effects, but it was gradual and easily noticed.

If you took 3 seeds everyday for 1 week, assuming 100% of it stayed in the body and none was flushed out (which is impossible actually), at the end of the week at most your body would contain 1470 micrograms, which is within safe limits. But that doesn’t mean you should do it. You shouldn’t take anything more than 2 days in a row.

If you ever experience dry mouth or blurred vision, stop taking them for a few days.

Kannamate wrote:
69ron wrote:
This doesn’t seem right. I thought the effects were supposed to be nothing like the classic psychedelics and yet SWIM experienced LSD-style visual effects from them.

Is this not normal? Does anyone have any input here?


Swim is not surprised he did Dimenhydrinate(also a deleriant hallucinogen) when he was younger and received light visuals like ripples,numbers blinking/changing,objects appearing he could easily tell none of this was real. SWIM just didn't do too much to become delerious so he knew what's real and what's not. Those days are long gone for swim and tolerance made it not work eventually months apart. What kind of things did swim see was there any body load,or feeling of being weighed down?


SWIM took only 3 seeds of Datura inoxia. There was no body load at all. The visuals were just LSD-style patterns, and some mild flickering seen at the peripheral vision.
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All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.
 
970Codfert
#20 Posted : 5/10/2009 7:51:56 PM

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Would Datura Strumonium seeds help with nausea that is not related to taking psychoactive substances?

Also, what is a characteristic that would help identify a datura plant as Strumonium or inoxia? Erowid wasn't much help, neither was google.

Is it better to harvest once the seed pods have dried out, later in the season? or does it not really matter?
All posts are fictional.
 
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