Hello
This is gonna be my first post and I wanted to appreciate all the wonderful work being done here
Also an posting a pic of crystals I got from 100 g of kattha. I did a food grade extraction with Washin
Soda and cookin oil and vinegar. Kattha is used in traditional Indian paan preparation and if this turns out
Good then anyone in India will be having a cheap and readily available starting material . Naturally I'm
Very excited to bio assay it but I read somewhere that acacia catechu contains cyanide containing compounds
And was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this. Any comments about the crystals are appreciated.
This is my first time and all the help is required.

Thank you

hey skar.. I advise you wait for other members to comment on the cyanide, though I would think it would be reasonably safe to bioassay the extract via vapor in the small amounts that would be required for effects.. does anyone know if cyanide containing compounds would be soluble in non polar? would be good to see pics..

Sorry about the pic. I did try attaching but I guess my net connection is too slow to upload pics. An still trying though.
here.s the procedure for extraction. 100g catechu heartwood extract was mixed with equal amount washing soda and
Water added to get paste like consistency. Sufficient cooking oil was now added and the mixture was put on low heat and
Stirred for an hour. After this the oil was taken out and mixed with equal parts acidic water for several minutes and then the
Acid was separated and more washing soda was added to get the spice in free base. Now the acidic water was evaporated to
Get mixture of washing soda and spice. Now this was dissolved in rubbing alcohol and the insoluble washing soda was separated
The remaining liquid was evaporated to get white crystals ( lots almost a gram).
Please note all the ingredients used wer food safe except the alcohol but I read that catechu contains cyanogen compounds in small quantities
I was wondering if this would be a problem seeing that I've basically done an extraction from an extract.

The pic of crystals

Looks... Tasty?

green crystals? :/ i'm would not consume that...what does it smell like?

KThe greenish / bluish colour is mostly due to the colour of the rubbing alcohol which was blue in colour due to some dye in
It. It does have a smell . It smells like somethin I would smell in a chemistry lab. What makes you say that you would not consume
Them? Just lookin for some insights. I used all food grade chemicals .
The only thing which would make it harmful would be the presence of cyanide
(doubtful since I've seen a lot of happy goats eating this plant ).

ECould an acacia expert please shed some light on the presence of cyanogen (?) in acacia catechu?

are you sure the dye in the alcohol is safe to consume/smoke ? the by-products of the dye may not be pleasant for smoking and will alter the taste..

also, are you sure that acacia catechu contains dmt ? an unknown mixture of substances can be harmful for your body.

unless you have a way to identify what that extract contains, its unsafe to use.

Accordin to trout's notes acacia catechu has tryptamine in bark as well as leaf. Would there be a method to determine the substance without ingesting?

colorimetric tests like Ehrlich or Marquis can show you very fast if the extract has indole based substances like dmt, psilo.. but unless the compounds are separated and purified, you cant find out what the individual substance is, nor you can check the quantity with colorimetric tests.

although i havent read trout's notes one reference is sometimes not enough to prove something. for example, i have been following Ratch's reference regarding the dmt content in Punica Granatum, also there were few internet rumor's to back this reference.

but after doing a/b extraction on some roots from Punica Granatum i found out there wasnt even a trace of dmt or any other tryptamines.

if you have the resources, i highly advise to look into TLC and colorimetric reagent testing.

edit : also every substance has specific melting point. so theoretically if you could separate the compounds by solvent re crystallization or other means, you could check each substance's melting point and compare that in literature.

another suggestion is to find yourself another solvent for extraction, who knows what is the blue dye made from in the alcohol.

I had just been doing some reading and it turns out that cyanide is very effectively removed by boiling. Apparently that's why casava roots should never be consumed raw but cooked is fine. Also acacia catechu has been used medicinaly as well as for food for thousands of years. So I would think it's quite safe . So I'll probably do an bio assay tonight and let you know how it goes. It's my first time so am having no idea wat to expect. I've certainly done my research.
Thank you all.

Also came across this while reading apparently a lot of acacia ( longifolia) of Australia contain cyanide in their leaves and this is used as fish poison by the natives. So care should be taken while working with the plants.
Just thought I'll put it out together.

Ambivalent
Thank you for the feedback but I am from a region where all this is very new. I must probably be the only one in a hundred mile radius who's even heard of tryptamine in plants. People here are quite content drinkin lots of bhang. It's kind of legal almost.
So you can understand how hard it is for me to source plants and equipments here.

So I just tried the crystals now and well they aren't active. and they don't contain cyanide either since I'm still breathing.
So anyways I was wondering if any had any idea about the plants of India in which I might be interested? Do help a newb.

..hey skar..looks like a few questions already answered..thanks for your research..yes, cyanogenic glycosides are decomposed by boiling/drying..

my initial question is did you source that actual plant material, or was the 'kattha' obtained from a supplier..in which case one could not be sure that the tree is definitely A. catechu..there are similar looking acacias, which could be presented as khatta..
April-May is the usual flowering time in India, for correct ID..

also, in acacias the heartwood is not where alkaloids are found..but rather in the inner bark and/or leaves..
so, a heartwood extraction of known tryptamine acacias would yield flavonoids, but in most cases no tryptamines..

the question could also be asked whether or not A. catechu has sub-varieties, as the active varieties are known from Nepal..

..other Indian acacias of possible interest are A. chundra (in the south), and A. tortillis or nilotica (exotic, but some varieties dmt positive, others not)
.

I did source it from a supplier but I asked him the source tree and he told him it is khair which is local name of catechu
But it was the heartwood maybe that was the problem. But I did tons of some inactive crystals and that was after being wasteful.
Well atleast I got some extraction practise. Did you find any faults with my extraction technique posted at the beginning of the thread.?
Also thanks for the trees mentioned I'll be on the look for them. And since it's may and they are flowering maybe I could post a few pics and
Get it id . Wat would be the best place to start ID threads?
Thanks again

..it's great that you're giving this a shot..!
while i'm sure many suppliers can be trusted, you just don't always know for sure..as with verifying the plant with ID..
the Acacia ID thread is the place..catechu should be fairly straightforward..

but yes if i extracted the heartwood of, say, A. acuminata, confusa or obtusifolia i would get no alkaloids..they're all in the inner bark, which i imagine (if alkaloids are in there) would be way too bitter and astringent to use in any cooking dish incl. paan..

as for method, i find yours very interesting indeed, but haven't tried such a method myself..would be good to try on known material (MHRB, P. viridis etc) ..
in experience rubbing alcohol (i.e isoproyl) doesn't work so well for dmt..ethanol, or denatured alcohol (methylated spirits) are preferred..
in the Acacia Extraction Workspace are a few methods, incl. the 'nen-method'..

there's a couple of pics of A. chundra in the Acacia info thread in this post (also found Sri Lanka)

best of luck skar, and look forward to hearing how your next experiment goes..
.

Sure nen888 I'm lookin at getting my hands on some confusa bark or rootbark. Am looking forward to posting my results with that.
Meanwhile if you give the above extraction a try pls do post your results so as to compare the yield and effectiveness. The important thing is
That all items required are available in any grocery and no real precaution is needed while working with this method.

Hi Skar,
This is my first post here too. After working with Santo Daime (Ayahuasca) couple of years ago, I have been trying to establish an indigenous source for DMT. You will be pleasantly surprised to know that Acacia Maidenii which is an intrusive tree brought in to stop land erosion due to mining in Goa had about .6% tryptamines in its bark. The wood is commonly used for building and furniture, and its easy to come by the bark. I had quite a few kilos of the bark from a building project last year. I tried a cold water extraction for oral in combination with Nutmeg (bad choice) as Maoi, so it didnt really work for me. I'm not a chemist so I have not attempted an extraction for smoking yet. Life has been busy but I plan to make time for this. In the meantime, if you have had any successes, or would like to know more, feel free to PM me.
Also, I remember reading that Acacia Catechu had DMT in the bark, not heartwood. I found a tree resembling Acacia Hostilis/Catechu (for lack of differential identification) growing here, and we harvested the bark. Again, I made it for oral but had no good MAOI, so it didnt work. This too I hope I will have time to work on this year.
Do get in touch.

Thank you for the posts. I just posted a question on catechu myself. I will wait on some answers probably before I try it or the arabica in question.