Wow. I really have to listen to Tool, many have said their music is very spiritual and enlightening, time to check them out.

Also very well said about walking the path, makes perfect sense to me and reflects my experience very nicely. Always question, never settle. Breathe. You will know when you walk the path of heart.

Many thanks for this well said insight!

Lateralus-Tool. Nice video!

I have come across the idea that the hebrew alphabet is derived by the shadow of a Phi spiral projected upon the walls of a tetrahedron. This was very interesting to me, though I have not looked into it any further. That would be evidence of something beyond simple human scribbling 1000's of years ago. But whether that is a divine gift, or extra-terresterial influence cannot be proven. I personally lean more toward the latter.

I don't believe in the god of Abraham, there are too many logical fallacies and nonsensical "rules" to give that belief system any validity from my perspective. What psychotic creator would give humans free will and then punish them for eternity if they got it wrong the one and only chance then got? Granted there are jewels of wisdom in there, but you have to wade through too much feces to find them. They are not as accessible as they should be.

I don't need any rights from god, because I am god, and so are you. You say we no longer have natural rights, but then go on to cite several examples of those rights, so I'm a bit confused. What natural rights have we been denied due to the transition to "relative truth"? If we don't have them now, we have never had them. World history is rife with examples of empire, slavery and centralized control systems from the birth of civilization. When have humans ever enjoyed these natural rights you speak of? In addition the Abrahamic religions are full of edicts against "thought crime".

The only natural law I ascribe to is the Law of Free Will. Everyone has the right to pursue their own measure of happiness as long as it does not impede upon the free will of others. By your definition Natural Rights are a religious construct, a supposed gift from an invisible vengeful architect. That is probably why I was unfamiliar with your term, and asked you to define it. I already understood the concept from a perspective of Free Will. And please don't worry, there is no possible way you could ever offend me.

Some of these terms are new to me (been a long time since I've been forced to read a textbook, or history book) so please excuse me if I fumble around with the ideas a bit. Collectivism isn't necessairily a bad thing, in fact Jesus was a socialist, and promoted doing what is best for the common good. We are all one being here, there is no you or I or him, or it. What I do for others helps myself, for if I improve someone else's life, then my life in turn is improved. Individuation is a fallacy, an ego construct that is based on fear, self-preservation and separation, the more we are kept separate and only looking out for ourselves, the more power they have over us. We are already slaves, have been for a long time, its just that most people don't realize it.

I am unfamiliar with much of Kabbalah, just some very rudimentary ideas. It may be worth looking into, as I am always seeking new ideas and perspectives. I do dislike organized religious thought because it is always far to narrow in its precepts, and rarely allows free thinking or different ideas. We live in an emergent universe, change is the only constant, so while there may be truths embedded in ideas formulated 1000's of years ago, they are inherently flawed because everything changes. What was true back then is not necessairily, and unlikely to be true today.

I am a big fan of everyone exploring their own path toward the Great Mystery, and I am truly happy that you have found something that resonates with you. That is what is ultimately important. Your truth will not be the same as mine, but it is that quest for truth which defines us and provides meaning in our lives. We are all players in a game, each has our own roles. What is right for you, won't necessairly be right for me, and in the grand scheme of things, thats just how its supposed to be. I imagine when I look into Kabbalah more I'll find gems in there as well, and my own understanding of All That Is will be enhanced, and my path a little easier and my steps a little lighter.

As I've said in other posts...I can only learn by looking within myself and communicating with others. I love new ideas as they cosntantly force me to relect upon my beliefs and why they have significance for me. I don't have all the answers so I have to look out there for ideas that resonate. When they do, I incorporate them. When they don't, I acknowledge them and throw them away, but reserve the right to revist them when I am exposed to new information.

Good discussion.

May Love and Wisdom guide your path.

Namaste

Why thank you Saidin


I love that compassion tempered by wisdom absolute brilliance.


Much Peace

Gee thank you DMTtripn2Space i am greatly moved that you found my post beautiful
Wow we have a matching philosophy awesome.


Much Peace and Compassion DMTtripn2Space

If you seriously believe that I must question pretty much everything you are saying. If a planet hit the earth we would probably know about it. We can tell when massive craters hit the earth you think we would miss a planet? Especially if it was at a time when humans were around (ie great flood). Which is also something thats not true there was never a flood that covered all the land on earth. If there was it was not when humans were around.



Mckenna is flat out wrong. He made that theory up. Other animals are conscious there is no doubt about that.



Again you are repeating nonsense. We know there are other beings that looked like humans. We have found skeletons of human intermediates. Beings that are between us and simple primates existed. Not to mention our genetic heritage is so similar. It makes ZERO sense that we spontaneously materialized out of acrhetype universal consciousness.


No offense I dig some things you are saying about being against collectivism because I too have a major problem with these kinds of political philosophies but probably for much different reasons then you. But overall you are just spewing out beliefs that are based on nothing but poorly written religious text and insane religious ideas that have no basis in reality.


By the way we can continue the discussion from the other thread (with your poems) here if you want. Its more relevant to discuss here.

Your welcome Aegle..I was fortunate enough a few years back to go with 2 friends to Dharamsala which lies right in Himachal Pradesh. We went with a small tourist group. It was so picturesque and serene! Got to watch in on alot of different Mantras and learning centers and met and talked with a few of the Tibetans. That trip has changed my life forever and noone has any clue til they are there. The type of energy that is carried around Dharamsala is surreal. Its like walking into a wave of pure openness and compassion. The hairs stood up on my arms the entire time! lol

Aside from that wonderful experience..heres a little tidbit:

Our experience of the world is one of interdependence, and we do not exist as isolated elements but are related to each other as many strands of a fabric. Hindu and Buddhist texts provide structures through which trustworthy views of this experience can be developed, recognizing that such interdependence is not just of the nature of the body, but at a deeper level, of human social life. Such an outlook involves not only accommodation, but also slowly but steadily cultivates in us the ideal of renunciation, defined as the abandonment of material things over to someone else, and which is a necessary first step towards Nirvana.

COMPASSION AND RESPECT

Oh my word Dharamsala is the ultimate destination for me you are so lucky. I have been to Northern India for a month for teachings i went and stayed in a monastery called The Shechen Monastery in Bodhgaya. I highly recommend going to Bodhgaya its an incredible place. An amazing place to visit is the Mahabodhi Temple where the Bodhi Tree resides. My hairs stood on end almost the entire time i was in Bodhgaya. I know exactly what you mean Bodhgaya has the same intense surreal and powerful energy. Dharamsala will definitely be the next place i will travel to that's for sure. How long did you stay in Dharamsala if you don't mind me asking?

I loved that little tidbit i couldn't agree more

Shechen Monastery

Mahabodhi Temple


Much Peace and Compassion

Only 2 days, leaving on the thrid day. I will definitely have to go to Bodhgaya once i get the money together. Yeah they are amazing trips and no one really understands til they are there. The feeling is just SOO much different there.

COMPASSION AND RESPECT

Indeed it is i miss India so much, i think once you have been you will always have a great longing to return


Much Peace

No problems its fun to discuss. Ill check out the film after.



People back then may have thought the sun is god. If there is anything within our solar system that deserves a god like title its the sun. But something else created the sun. The sun also has no personality which some people for some reason attribute to a god like entity.



I like McKenna too but he did make up lots of what he said. He was often just speculating. Taking him too seriously can be confusing.

I don't understand the difference between spirit and soul and don't really see why humans would have one and animals wouldn't. Or any other form of life.



Sure. But science can answer things religion can't. Religion can't really answer anything. Subjective experience can but its objective analysis which puts it into context and gives it meaning to those who have not experienced it.



Natural selection seems to be how we got here. There is no reason to invoke any supernatural or god like being to explain life. Perhaps our universe but not life.

I admit I don't know much about jewish mysticism. But if you take the old testament as the main document for the jewish religion and hence what influence jewish mysticism I can't take it seriously because that book is just so utterly absurd. Just because they did some fancy math doesn't mean they know anything thats so special. Especially if it makes things up about lucifer being a large rock hitting the earth. I call those large rocks that hit the earth meteors.



Hyperluminal light? Define that because I have no idea what you mean.

No single human being on earth KNOWS how the universe came into being. They may think they know but no one knows. How could they? No amount of jewish mystical mathematics can prove that some being with a personality created it.



How can you say its true? Its not based on anything except weird mathematics and old jewish religious texts? I don't care what mystical scholar wrote them. I don't take most of those people seriously because anyone who has done enough psychedelics knows the mental states that can be achieved by altered states of consciousness. Anyone who knows enough about the brain knows there are mechanisms by which the brain can create these states. Much like mental illness can make the unreal real and the real unreal. In other words mystics are really over rated if you know where they have been by having been there yourself.



I am pro liberty as well so I won't disagree with you there Although the U.S. constitution wasn't perfect. It left too many holes for future generations to misuse! It also forgot women and people who were not white.



I don't need to read their entire works. Its pretty obvious I won't agree with them because they assume that the god of Israel created the world. They base all their logic assuming that's true. I don't believe in the god of Israel. There is no evidence that being exists.

Its like when a christian tells me I am being anti intellectual for not reading the bible. Well I don't need to be able to recite everything from the bible by heart to know that's its for the most part full of garbage with a few nice morals to it.

Let me make a few obvious objections just from wikipedia:



This is completely absurd. You can't have fire or water without the particles that make them up. Hydrogen and oxygen. These things could not have existed during the early conditions (very very early) of the universe. That's science not mysticism and its being proven. Furthermore, sound is part of the electromagnetic spectrum which is really a frequency of photons. Before photons existed there could be no sound. If the universe was as dense as we think it may have been 14 or so billion years ago there would be no photons either. Photons could only form once it started.

However I don't really want to continue this discussion. Unless you can prove your god exists then I won't believe much of anything anyway. There is no point. Unless you want to learn something about evolution but you seem pretty convinced on your truth although its quite obvious its not the truth.

I agree with you, this is a great place for discussions of all types. Many intelligent and thoughtful people here who will test your thought processes, and open you up to new ideas.

Here is the reference I mentioned about the Hebrew Alphabet. If you find that chapter interesting, I suggest reading the entire book (free online). It blends science, spirtuality and history very well, and paints a compelling picture of what existence is all about. It may answer questions, and certainly pose more, but isn't that all we can ask of material while we are searching for our own truths?

http://www.soulsofdistor...n.nl/SODA_chapter11.html

I am not understanding what you are saying, because you are coming from a perspective of deep knowledge of a particular type of mysticism I am not familiar with. My limited knowledge of the Kabbalha is that it is based on the Torah, and was formulated by Rabbis. The Torah, while containing some good ideas, is not relevant to my own connection to the divine, whether mathmatical or in any other form. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are amazing documents, probably the best ever written to attempt to give indivuduals the rights to pursue their own measure of happiness. But they don't always work, and are often completely ignored/pushed aside when convienient. We have seen ample evidence of that in recent years, not to mention slavery or womens rights.

As I have said, you have found a truth that resonates with you, and that is all that matters.

I too have found a truth, which I believe explains the nature and structure of existence, from subatomic particles to the higher dimensions, who we are, why we are here, and where we are going. I cannot prove it, anymore than anyone else on this planet can prove the true nature of existence. It just resonates with me and feels right. Understanding Divine Truth is not necessary in order to evolve spiritually, as it is unknowable, that is the whole purpose. One must seek, and in seeking one gets closer to the divine, in whatever form it ulitmately takes. I could be wrong, I only have faith and my willingness to be open to new ideas to see me though the confusion.

I know there are answers to my questions. I have asked many questions, and gotten many answers, but those answers ALWAYS lead to more questioins. That is how I know I am on the right path.

Though if there was one word to describe it all, I have the suspicion that we would both pick the same one...

Love

Thank you for your kind words Aegle and DMTtripin, much appreciated.

It has been a while since I've been to India, and never got a chance to make it to the monestaries, but I have been to Nepal a couple of times. On a recent trip I spent a day at the Tengboche Monestary at around 11,000 ft. They were preparing for a festival in the coming weeks and were working on a sand Mandala. I spent hours listening to their chanting and watching them carefully placing the sand in intricate designs. Such beauty and harmony, and the knowledge that when the festival was done they would dump it in the river, the ultimate affirmation that all life is impermenant.

If you haven't been, and can spend the time, I highly recommed trekking in the Himalaya. Each day and each step is a walk amongnst the mysteries of existence. One feels both infinitely small among 25000ft+ mountians, as well as connected to the entirety of the universe. The people and experiences along the way will change you forever.

Namaste

No worries Saidin. Nepal is breath taking, I love sand mandalas they are so beautiful i actually have some sand from one some monks made its some of the most awesome colourful sand. Impermanence is a vital philosophy of Tibetan Buddhism. I would really love to go to the Himalayas it would be a very special and necessary journey for me to make. I would also loved to go to Tibet but since the Chinese occupation it hasn't been the same and its better to visit India instead there's far more freedom in India for the monks.


Beautiful and inspiring post Sadin

Much Peace and Compassion

I just watched Kymatica, and really enjoyed it. It encompases some of my beliefs very well as I have come to some of the same conculsions myself from many different directions.

I think you have missed the whole point of that film though...



"People will tell you, this is good information, this is bad information, and I have to wonder...What makes anyone an authority figure enough to say something is true or false? And why are you denying or accepting anything based on the suggeston of another person? Why arent you making that decision for yourself. Information is information. There is no such thing as good information or bad informatiion. Its all what you do with it. I say let everything be your bible. Give every piece of information, every person, every event or situation an honest and open mind. Because it is then your responsibility to respond to it in the way you choose. Not following the herd, not following convention, its your responsibility. Its at that point when no matter how many people tell you're wrong or right, you are not dependent upon their approval. If we at least question our own actions, question our own thought processes and make a conscious decision to what we feel is right every single day that's what i believe to be divinity. That is true shamanism. That to me is what it really feels like to be alive."



You have to decide for yourself what meaning is, and never let anyone or anything make that decision for you. We all have our own truth, make it work for you by always keeping an open mind to new ideas, and refuse to be boxed into a corner by someone else's take on truth.

I guess I just don't understand where you are coming from. Claiming to know objective truth is claiming to know the mind of god. I personally do not believe that is possible. You cannot prove it to me by any means I can think of. If you know the one and only truth, why are you still here? You have nothing more to learn...

So if there is one objective truth, we should all follow it, would be the logical conclusion from this statement. But then we would all be exactly the same, all adhering to one truth, all subservient and controlled by one philosophy. Seems like existence would be a bland and uninteresting place. Devoid of free will and creativity and growth. If we had not had this "relative truth" would we have made the leaps and bounds in technology and innovation in the past 50 years? I dunno...

I am in no way saying that those who are not open to everything are the enemy. I am saying that truth is subjective, each of us has unique expeiences which shape who we are thoughout our lives, we are all preciously unique. If you take the flip side, then those who are open to everything are the enemy...sounds suspiciously like Facism to me, or The Borg if you are a Star Trek fan. No thank you, I do not want your truth imposed upon me, I like my free will to determine my fate as I see fit.

I believe as my signature says, that we are all different manifestations of the same thing, all experiencing itself. Diversity in ideas and experiences is completely necessary to the growth of the whole. If everyone thought the same, existence would become a pretty boring place for something that is trying to experience itself throught its creations. We become the created, subservient to the will of god, rather than co-creators.

I do not know all the answers, all the laws and idiosyncracities of existence, all the modes of experience, all the mysteries of the universe, so how can I not be open to new ideas? We live in an emergent and symbiotic universe. Everythign changes, it is the nature of things, it is a fact. What is true today, will not be true tomorrow, at least from this 3 dimensional existence we are experiencing. If we evolve could we have a better grasp/understanding of objective truth? Quite possibily. But then again we run into the danger of stagnation, and subservience to that which is.

I will always take diversity over homogeniety, but that is just this one being's perspective. I claim to speak for no one else.
I am glad that you have found truth. I have as well, and it is unique to me, as yours is to you, and that should be sufficient.

33 I really am having a very difficult time following you. I understand what you mean about the evils of collectivism and these economic third ways. I am also pro-liberty. But its not because of some absolute truth. I just want to be free and I want other people to be free because its better from my perspective. Its not better from the perspective of those in power. In that sense its moral justification is subjective and not absolute.

Also people are the ones who came up with the idea of natural rights. Its a human idea.

I have already said that objective Truth is real. My point is that you cannot KNOW it. I never said you were wrong, just that you think you know something which in my opinion is unknowable. I dont care what philosophers from 100s or 1000s of years ago said. My understanding of life, who we are, and where we are going, is not dependent upon reading(or having forgotten) a few particular bozos, no matter how intelligent they were, or what subjective drivel they wrote long ago, which may or may not apply to the world today.

You can call me ignorant all you want, it matters not to me, as it is just you attempting to make yourself feel superior.



If this is all you are claming as your "objective truth" then I will agree with you. I do not deny it, in fact I embrace it. Another way of saying that is everyone has Free Will, self determination. Same thing, different words.

So now I am; a Third Way economic fascist, uneducated, A collectivist slave, and ignorant.

Sigh...



Yep, that's what I'm saying. You can believe or not, that is your choice, and it doesn't matter either way. I ask questions of "god" all the time and get answers, don't you? Doesn't mean I know what it is any better than anyone else. Belief is irrelevant.



We are discussing objective Truth, not objective truth. See the difference?



This is the third time in this post where you have insulted or demeaned me. For someone who claims such specific knowledge of history and philosophy, you have a very poor understanding of philosophical debate. I may be smarter than all those men, but how would you know? I am certainly smarter in some areas than they were, and they more so than me in some areas. Everything is Relative. See what I did there?



Hmm, after going though this whole post and commenting, I think we are talking about totally different things. My premise is that you are arguing that objective TRUTH is knowable, when you are actually stating that objective truth is knowable. I have no disagreement with the latter.

If that is the case, then I got confused like Burnt because you have been all over the place, mixing the two definitions. If you are not claiming objective Truth is knowable, then I have nothing further to argue with you about. There are certain truth's which are self evident, such as your natural rights, which as burnt correctly states are human ideas.