CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Harmala to THH conversion during boiling of B Caapi. Options
 
DDanimal
#1 Posted : 3/5/2013 1:58:30 AM
DMT-Nexus member

New member

Posts: 7
Joined: 04-Mar-2013
Last visit: 13-May-2013
Location: Virginia USA
I recently came across information indicating that THH (tetrahydroharmine) is formed in-situ while B Caapi is boiled. It appears that THH is not present in the caapi vine. THH is formed by chemical reaction with the acids and antioxidants in the vine. Specifically, hydrogen atoms from the acids/antioxidants combine with harmaline (and harmine) to form THH.

THH has a reputation for mood enhancement during the trip. THH is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, so a mood-enhancing effect is to be expected. THH appears to be highly desirable in ayahuasca.

In another thread on this website, data is presented showing that B caapi contains little THH. These analyses were done on methanol extracts, presumably without long duration oooking. I would expect that THH will not be produced by methanol extraction. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=29967

I have done ayahuasca with both syrian rue and B caapi. The B caapi is far preferable. Its more pleasant, less negative, and is more healing. I think this might be because THH is formed during B caapi preparation, but not syrian rue preparation.

The times I did syrian rue, the seeds were brewed for a very short period of time (10 minutes or so). It just isnt necessary to boil syrian rue for a long period to extract the alkaloids. Without a long boiling I believe that THH will not be formed.

The times I did B caapi, the vine was boiled for many hours, because it takes this long to extract the alkaloids. Also, I added citric acid to improve alkaloid solubility.

I am wondering what might happen if syrian rue seeds are boiled for many hours with acid (citric acid) and antioxidants. My hypothesis is that the harmalas in syrian rue would be converted to THH. So it may be possible to make a good quality ayahuasca analog using syrian rue if its boiled long enough with acid and antioxidant.

Has anyone tried long duration cooking of syrian rue? With acids and antioxidants?

The attached paper mentions that THH is likely produced in situ during boiling of B Caapi. It states:

"In Situ Production of THH
The average ratio of THH to harmine in the vegetáis
was consistently near 1:1, from all sources (Table 2), while this ratio was closer to 1:5 in a large survey of source plant material (i.e., B. caapi, see Callaway, Brito & Neves 2005 in this issue). It is presently unclear whether harmine and harmaline are being chemically reduced to THH during the acidic process of decoction, or if THH is simply more stable than the other two harmala alkaloids, which maybe lost through decomposition, or a combination of both processes. Figure 1 illustrates a likely chemical pathway for the conversion of both harmine and harmaline to THH through reduction under acidic conditions."

 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
DDanimal
#2 Posted : 4/29/2013 5:33:22 AM
DMT-Nexus member

New member

Posts: 7
Joined: 04-Mar-2013
Last visit: 13-May-2013
Location: Virginia USA
In a new experiment, friends tried long boiling of caapi with a combination of citric acid, malic acid and ascorbic acid. The solution was highly acidified (ph of about 3.5). Ascorbic acid may cause significant conversion of harmaline and harmine into THH because its a pretty good reducing agent.

We found that this boiled caapi product did not fully activate dmt. We believe this is because almost all the harmine and harmaline was converted to THH, which is not an MAO inhibitor.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Its got me thinking about way to obtain a perfect blend of harmine and THH: Prepare two batches of rue: one boiled for a short time in water to provide harminee/harmaline, and another batch boiled for a long time with citric acid and ascorbate, to provide THH. The two batches are then combined to provide controlled amounts of both THH and harmine/harmaline.
 
jamie
#3 Posted : 4/29/2013 6:12:16 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12331
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 09-Nov-2021
Location: turtle island
there are antioxidants already in rue. I would suspect that long boils with rue will also cause THH to be formed. Im not an expert though..so dont take my word for it.
 
DDanimal
#4 Posted : 4/29/2013 4:47:14 PM
DMT-Nexus member

New member

Posts: 7
Joined: 04-Mar-2013
Last visit: 13-May-2013
Location: Virginia USA
So maybe just a long boil with rue. I would expect that not enough antioxidants would be present, because alkaloids are quite concentrated in rue. The idea here would be to completely convert the beta carbolines into THH in one batch, so there would be no harm to adding excess antioxidants.
 
endlessness
#5 Posted : 4/29/2013 5:14:57 PM

DMT-Nexus member

Moderator

Posts: 13941
Joined: 19-Feb-2008
Last visit: 02-Dec-2021
Location: Jungle
heres a thread on this very subject Smile

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=31699
 
DDanimal
#6 Posted : 4/29/2013 7:08:38 PM
DMT-Nexus member

New member

Posts: 7
Joined: 04-Mar-2013
Last visit: 13-May-2013
Location: Virginia USA
Great thanks for the link. I think that prolonged boiling with vitamin C and acid will produce THH. So I am going to try this with syrian rue, and then do a bioassay. Will report results.
 
shanedudddy2
#7 Posted : 4/30/2013 7:49:21 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 365
Joined: 08-Apr-2012
Last visit: 12-Jun-2020
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Please do, curious to hear. Please include exact steps of how much water, rue, acid and vitamin c you use Smile
Are there additional psychoactive effects of THH?
I remember one time having just rue, without anything else, and tripping balls.
I believe it was acid boil with vinegar or citric acid, and then concentrated drink of disgustingness.
Since then, I have taken rue by swallowing in capsules.
The effects since have been nothing like that one time, and I have always been trying to find an explanation.
My usual effects are the stimulant effects and the brightened lights and semi sketchy trails.
 
DDanimal
#8 Posted : 4/30/2013 7:18:38 PM
DMT-Nexus member

New member

Posts: 7
Joined: 04-Mar-2013
Last visit: 13-May-2013
Location: Virginia USA
Here is what im doing:

50 grams syrian rue
couple liters water (adding water regularly)

Added at beginning:
3 grams vitamin C + about 1000mg bioflavonoids
3 grams citric acid

After boiling for 5 hours, added another 3 grams vitamin C + 1000 mg bioflavonoids

Will boil for about 12 hours or so.
 
SnozzleBerry
#9 Posted : 4/30/2013 9:53:49 PM

omnia sunt communia!

Moderator | Skills: Growing (plants/mushrooms), Research, Extraction troubleshooting, Harmalas, Revolution (theory/practice)

Posts: 6024
Joined: 29-Jul-2009
Last visit: 29-Oct-2021
This was a topic of some limited discussion at the MAPS conference. It seems that even those who have published papers/been aware of some reporting of possible reduction reaction occuring via brewing are still fairly intrigued by the potential phenomenon.

shanedudddy2 wrote:
Are there additional psychoactive effects of THH?

In what sense do you mean? THH is a weak SSRI, fwiw.
WikiAttitudeFAQ
The NexianNexus ResearchThe OHT
In New York, we wrote the legal number on our arms in marker...To call a lawyer if we were arrested.
In Istanbul, People wrote their blood types on their arms. I hear in Egypt, They just write Their names.
גם זה יעבור
 
nen888
#10 Posted : 5/1/2013 10:47:34 AM
member for the trees

Acacia expert | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingExtraordinary knowledge | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, CounsellingSenior Member | Skills: Acacia, Botany, Tryptamines, Counselling

Posts: 3870
Joined: 28-Jun-2011
Last visit: 01-Dec-2020
..remember also there are two possible isomers of THH..
as mentioned here in the thread endlessness linked earlier..
.
 
alkan0id
#11 Posted : 5/1/2013 11:26:06 AM

hitchin' a ride

Senior Member

Posts: 163
Joined: 05-Feb-2013
Last visit: 01-Dec-2021
Location: bat country
DDanimal: anything to report yet?

According to wikipedia, ascorbic acid is only a mild reducing agent. I don't understand any of the chemistry of all this, but I was thinking of trying something similar to this using a mix of fumaric/ascorbic acid adding a few rooibos tea bags for antioxidants.
Uh uh. I know what you're thinking. "Did he load 40 milligrams or only 30?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is DMT, the most powerful hallucinogen in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?
 
shanedudddy2
#12 Posted : 5/1/2013 2:43:45 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 365
Joined: 08-Apr-2012
Last visit: 12-Jun-2020
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Quote:

In what sense do you mean? THH is a weak SSRI, fwiw.

In the sense to explain my strange experience one time that differed from all previous Rue experiences.
Perhaps it was the ratio of harmala/harmaline in the seeds...who knows.
 
hellspawn1
#13 Posted : 2/6/2021 9:50:47 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 13
Joined: 05-Jun-2011
Last visit: 24-Nov-2021
Location: Sweden
Okey, I think we've waited long enough.

How did things go with the c-vitamin rue brew?

I also vaguely recall an acidic brew made over many hours that turned out spectacular.

Updates brewers?
 
downwardsfromzero
#14 Posted : 2/7/2021 9:05:10 PM

Peeing into the abyss

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 6317
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 01-Dec-2021
Location: square root of minus one
hellspawn1 wrote:
Okey, I think we've waited long enough.

How did things go with the c-vitamin rue brew?

I also vaguely recall an acidic brew made over many hours that turned out spectacular.

Updates brewers?

I recently noticed that brewing rue with ascorbic acid seemed to make it significantly more euphoric, but this anecdotal claim really ought to be backed up with some kind of analytical data which will follow in due course.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.051 seconds.