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Acacia Extraction Workspace Options
 
rudder
#21 Posted : 11/12/2012 4:08:37 AM
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That's too bad acacia....did you get anything at all?

 

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acacian
#22 Posted : 11/12/2012 4:39:41 AM

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yeah got a pretty small amount.. can'tr weigh cos its too sticky.. prolly bout 300mg
 
nen888
#23 Posted : 11/12/2012 4:42:29 AM
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..a higher vinegar ratio seems to help more dried material..
i've on two occasions gotten almost nothing out of A. obtusifolia..for no apparent reason..
 
rudder
#24 Posted : 11/12/2012 10:54:00 PM
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acacian wrote:
yeah got a pretty small amount.. can'tr weigh cos its too sticky.. prolly bout 300mg


Too sticky!? Why don't you just wash it with a solvent?
 
rudder
#25 Posted : 11/16/2012 4:23:08 AM
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How is acetone for defatting the acidic solution and for pulling DMT from the basic solution?
 
Seldom
#26 Posted : 11/16/2012 5:42:25 AM

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it's miscible with water and ethanol, and disolves alkaloids. the method of mixing powdered material with an excess sodium carbonate paste, drying, and and doing 'pulls' with chilled acetone is a fairly crude way of getting alkaloids out, giving material can be converted back to its salt and de-fatted, reconverted to freebase and pulled with a non polar. really though you are better off tweaking a normal a/b using ways already discussed

does anyone have experience with FASA and acacia?
 
rudder
#27 Posted : 11/16/2012 5:36:21 PM
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Seldom wrote:
really though you are better off tweaking a normal a/b using ways already discussed


I just wanted to hear recommendations for a good defatting solvent that isn't naphtha or something difficult to find or requires a laboratory setup in order to synthesize (DCM comes to mind). I was leaning towards xylol and acetone, but it sounds like acetone won't work.

I suppose heptane/hexane would be a better choice. For defats you don't have to worry about residues, since you're just getting rid of the solvent anyway, right? Just want to know how much flexibility there is.
 
phyllode
#28 Posted : 11/16/2012 9:21:00 PM

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rudder wrote:
Quote:
I just wanted to hear recommendations for a good defatting solvent that isn't naphtha or something difficult to find or requires a laboratory setup in order to synthesize (DCM comes to mind). I was leaning towards xylol and acetone, but it sounds like acetone won't work.
?. You just buy them. I've never heard of actetone working in extraction.
#2 nen888 wrote:
Quote:
..as far as non-polar solvent choices go, hexane and xylene will work as well as described above in place of dcm; naphtha will usually require 2-3 pulls or extractions from the basic solution, whereas these other solvents require often only 1 solvent washing (they have a higher 'holding capacity', or solubility ratio)
..d-limonine..endlessness has achieved very good general dmt extraction results with the more 'natural' d-limonine (NP solvent derived from oil of lemon/citrus, naturally occuring in traces in the rind) ..this is perhaps what 'from plant' purists & organicists best use..
..chloroform is the common scientific standard NP solvent for such tasks, but should not be exposed to sunlight or left standing for long with alkaloids, or can react, as can to a lesser extent other chlorinated hydrocarbons..
 
rudder
#29 Posted : 11/16/2012 9:38:51 PM
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Phyllode, you need to update your knowledge about the California solvent situation. In California you don't "just buy them." Heptane is available but is at least twice as expensive as naphtha, so isn't very economical for defats.
 
phyllode
#30 Posted : 11/16/2012 10:11:36 PM

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^What is the California sitch? Remember this is a world wide site. We don't all know what goes on in the USASmile.
So, you can't even get d-limonine (for cleaning)?
 
nen888
#31 Posted : 11/20/2012 10:36:00 PM
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..with reference to a query by acacian in the info thread #918 and my response..in particular step 2 below..

..to be completely sure that all alkaloids have been extracted the following should be done (but i don't mean usually..i mean to be certain in a serious quantifying experiment) ..and it should be noted that many published formal tests do not do the following:

1) even if cold extraction is the aim (i.e. to minimise artefacts) the material should be heat extracted at a last stage (e.g. boil 45 minutes) to see if this brings further alkaloids trapped in the material out..

2) the basic solution should be extracted with solvent at a few different pH 'windows'..e.g. first at pH 9, then brought to 11.5 and extracted, and then say 13.. [see 'zwitterionic' below]
..in acacian's example mentioned earlier, one could easily reduce the pH again with a very small amount of dilute acid and extract again in order to resolve the query..

but, as i have said before, in my 'method' exact measurements are not as crucial as observation, intuition and understanding of concept in these techniques..
.
zwitterionic ..without going into deep chemistry charge theory, instructor benzyme gives an example of what this means in the context of chromatography/extraction, from: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...sts&t=16810&p=6 essentially it relates to charge states that a molecule will become polar or otherwise..there is a theoretical pH window which differs for each molecule at which it is most soluble in solvent..benzyme gave a graph example of [Image 1 below] tyramine's charge distribution..and then [Image2] the graph for n-methyl-tryptamine commenting
Quote:
zwitterionic species is 4, and no charge is 1 (red and orange). as you can see, they max at pH 10.2, and are not relatively abundant.
..which simplified in this context means that 10.2 would be the pH window for nmt..dmt is perhaps a bit higher..but above and below this pH less of the target alkaloid will be extracted..i don't actually have the figure for dmt handy..11.5 from memory/guess..but also, other compounds in a plant solution will take pH up and down with time..pH should be measured several times, especially some time after the basifying agent has been added..early high readings have been known to drop..many meters are not very accurately calibrated and in some ways trial and error, and instinct are more precise..
.
nen888 attached the following image(s):
chart.png (11kb) downloaded 1,087 time(s).
n-methyltryptamine z-graph_.jpg (139kb) downloaded 1,094 time(s).
 
acacian
#32 Posted : 11/20/2012 11:55:49 PM

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thanks nen...

I wonder there was an another alkaloid in there that was destroyed upon reaching higher ph.. I'll try decreasing the ph... do you think if there was something else in there that it could be recoverable? I did use warm solvent too... it was shellite this time as I have no more xylene... will try get some soon. will definitely try extracting at differen't ph's next time that sounds like a great idea nen. the extract from phlebophylla phyllodes has a strange scent i've noticed.. doesn't smell at all like dmt until its burnt/vaporised
 
nen888
#33 Posted : 11/21/2012 12:00:19 AM
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acacian wrote:
Quote:
I did use warm solvent too...
..i think this should be avoided..with some solvent mixes will result in inefficient extraction..the cooler the better..

and my general pH point is, if you suspect there may have been something in there which didn't come out, try another pH..
11.5 (guess) is say ideal for dmt in controlled conditions, but all the other compounds in a plant solution fool with eachother..the pH meter reading may not be correct..especially an hour later, or after cooling..
 
rudder
#34 Posted : 11/21/2012 10:35:49 PM
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acacian wrote:
the extract from phlebophylla phyllodes has a strange scent i've noticed.. doesn't smell at all like dmt until its burnt/vaporised

Does it have an affect like DMT?
 
acacian
#35 Posted : 11/22/2012 12:27:33 AM

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Borris
#36 Posted : 11/25/2012 1:02:13 PM

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nen888 wrote:
acacian wrote:
Quote:
I did use warm solvent too...
..i think this should be avoided..with some solvent mixes will result in inefficient extraction..the cooler the better..


A warm solution / solvent seems an axiom for extraction according to the majority of reading on this site and the wider web. Nen, Are you myth busting this from experience or have specific solvents in mind ?

Smile
 
nen888
#37 Posted : 11/25/2012 11:06:27 PM
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^..in all experience cold is better..i don't work with naphtha but friends who do swear by freeze precipiataion..if the basic solution is hot from being basified you will stuff it up..i hear of lots and lots of naphtha extractions 'not working' for some reason..almost never heard of a dcm, d-limo, hexane, or xylene extraction not working if there was something in there to extract!
with chlorinated solvents, as i prefer (and many labs) hot is a no-no both for yields and emulsions..
 
acacian
#38 Posted : 11/26/2012 3:03:48 AM

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interesting.. in the past using shellite i found dmt to be near insoluble in it when its room temp - cold, so i like to heat it for extractions

i do think if its pure dmt people are seeking out its good though as its very selective..
 
nen888
#39 Posted : 11/26/2012 3:13:57 AM
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..ok..i never use it and i concede dmt is not soluble in freezing naphtha, but 'hot' is going another direction again..that concerns me..
btw i've made further a further comment on extraction generally in the info thread..
i've been trying to say for a while..by all reports i've recieved..Shellite IS NOT A GOOD FORM OF NAPHTHA for extraction..it shouldn't need to be warm..it doesn't work for many, and often doesn't extract efficiently..
please re-read phyllode Tek 2 in the OP carefully..i cannot recommend shellite..there are other forms of naphtha..what's more of concern is How hot and why is it hot? is it still in basification conversion, releasing heat from that..?
 
acacian
#40 Posted : 11/26/2012 7:56:32 AM

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yeah.. there are definitely better solvents and those are what i'm interested in now as shellite is too selective. But generally for dmt rich sources all i'm saying is that it should work and has worked essentially everytime for me in the past and also many others.. it just needs more pulls, and thus more solvent... though the solvent can be reused if one chooses freeze precipitation. The other thing, with freeze precipitating.. a lot of alkaloids may not fall out of the shellite at cold temp, which is a bit of a bummer if looking for fullspectrum. By hot, I mean heat bathing it in a pot of boiled water for say a minute or 2. Not hot enough to burn... but very warm so that it doesn't cool down to quickly when added to the acacia solution. I think for shellite the low amount of base doesn't work as well due to lack of heat.. which is also undesireable as adding large amounts of caustic soda has both potential hazards and is just plain disgusting. . So yeah, your right... it shouldn't need to be warm. but it works consistently for many when it is.. and a lot of people seem quite happy with it when using on reliable dmt containing sources.

hope i can find some good dcm soon..
 
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