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Salvinorin Cyclodextrin Complexation for Sublingual Administration Options
 
MaNoMaNoM
#21 Posted : 5/20/2015 8:15:12 PM

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To my understanding it is as simple as mixing correct amounts ~9:1
Also i'd read somewhere that it's not fully complexed until it's dried.
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V01D
#22 Posted : 3/16/2016 8:58:05 AM

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I'd like to resurrect this thread to see if anyone ever made progress? This looked very promising! Thumbs up
 
Loveall
#23 Posted : 9/12/2017 2:15:19 AM

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Hi V01D. There has been one promising result that needs confirmation as reported here (I could not post in this thread at the time, sorry).

MaNoMaNoM's comment above where drying is mentioned to get complexation was key, as the first test failed and this work almost abandoned. I'm attaching an article that goes into some known complexation techniques. I'm going to definitely try spray drying (#7 in the attachment) but with a mister and a hair dryer Very happy .

We need this to be repeatable for others to get confirmation that this works or find other existing reports on the web. Salvinorin extract repeatable oral activity can be tricky (attached a second document illustrating this in case someone is not familiar with it). Time will tell.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#24 Posted : 9/18/2017 5:07:12 AM

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Made a new batch this time adding 4 grams of of HPBDC for every gram of salvinorin. 200 mg of HPBCD and 50mg of Salvinorin where dissolved in 60ml of 75% ethanol and complexed by evaporation in a shallow tray.

This time I finished the evaporating in an oven at the lowest convection setting (170F). I don't recommend everyone start putting ethanol in the oven even at the lowest temp, use your judgement. In my case I cook with alcohol and sometimes flambe stuff so I felt safe and comfortable. Motivation for oven drying was to drive any ethanol interacting with HPBCD away and to have some heat during complexation.

I took 33mg of complexed HPBDC sublingually. Very intense wich is surprising. Of the 33mg assuming perfect complexation, only 7mg of salvinorin tops where bioavailable, or about 3g of dried leaves. That amount of dried leaves is supposed to be a light experience. This is well beyond light. It was intense. I'm glad I was conservative as I almost took 50mg to begin with. Maybe I'm developing reverse tolerance as I go through these experiments.

One observation is that I scraped up 180mg of powder. Was expecting 260mg. I attributed this to poor/lazy scraping by me, but maybe something else is going on. I'll do an experiment with HPBDC to make sure it does not dry out under heat to a smaller mass (not expected but I'll check).

Bottom line is that once again salvinorin became sublingually active after complexation by drying in an 75% ethanol cosolvent. Heat and thorough drying recommended as the second batch seems to be more potent (better complexed?). Also scraping was easier this time and was done on the warm shallow container while still warm from the oven. A lot of experiments including those where we measure the degree of complexation still need to be done.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#25 Posted : 9/18/2017 1:05:43 PM

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Question: What would be the safest way to warm up the 75% ethanol solution for salvinorin evaporation complexation?

While I used the oven at low temp on a small final evaporation, I'm wondering if there are known safer/standard ways to do this for a shallow glass tray (I don't see an easy way to do a water heat bath due to bulkiness).

The oven has heating elements that can get hot and ethanol vapor can get to them. Opening the oven door may help, but is it completely safe?

I'm wondering because if we do find that heat aids in complexation during evaporation and the oven dry is scaled up by someone there could be large amounts of ethanol evaporated and that could be dangerous. At the end of the day want us to find a safe and fun procedure so we can receive the salvia sacrament sublingually in a new, convenient, and interesting way.

Thanks for any ideas/feedback.

Edit: This may be relevant to the discussion.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#26 Posted : 12/9/2017 4:49:45 AM

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Update: second attempt at this with a new outdoor fall leave harvest a few months later also worked. Complexed salvinorin is sublingually active for my particular case. Below picture has 600mg of material, estimating 430mg HPBCD, 85mg salvinorin, and 85mg other plant material from cold IPA extract (chlorophyll).



Materials needed: Cold IPA salvia extract powder, everclear (75% ethanol), HPBCD.

Procedure outline:

1) Perform a cold IPA extraction of dried leaves (I started with 136g, a third of that got used in step 3). If not familiar with this, follow steps 1-4 in this post from gibran2.

2) Measure resulting crude dry extract weight. About 0.22% (for us mortals) and up to 0.3% (for God like gibran2) of the plant weight is present as salvinorin and the extra weight should be plant material (I got 600mg crude extract, assuming/guessing about 300mg is salvinorin).

3) Dissolve a chosen amount of crude cold IPA extract in everclear (75% ethanol). In this example 200mg of the crude extract where dissolved in 200ml of everclear (use ~2ml of liquid for every mg of estimated salvinorin A).

4) Some of the crude extract may not dissolve in ethanol. Filter that out, the filtrate should be green plant material.

5) Now we have a clear transparent ethanol solution of the cold IPA extract. Color will be yellow/green. Add and 5x the amount of estimated salvinorin mass as HPBCD. In this example with ~100mg of salvinorin, I added 500mg of HPBCD). This is more HPBCD than theoretically needed (molar mass ratio is ~3x), but wanted to put excess HPBCD in order to increase the chances of getting a high complexation rate.

6) Stir or shake solution and let dry. Based on previous tests it is the drying that complexes the salvinorin and HPBCD. Essentially we are following technique #4 from the first attachment in post #23. While drying the solution will turn cloudy and milky, with separate clumps forming at the very end. In this example I used an oven at the lowest setting to dry the solution. Caution here about evaporating ethanol in the oven, not recommended for high volumes so use your adult judgement (for example I've cooked food with alcohol for flavor in the oven before).

7) Scrape up complexed product. In this example, 600mg (pictured product) was recovered. Missing 100mg, probably mostly due to poor scraping (some material is still stuck to the pirex dish edge/sides where it is hard to get the razor) and some green material that was filtered out in step #4).

Until this (or similar) is repeated independently by someone else it cannot be considered confirmed. I definetly got activity again, so reporting that - but this is for only one person so far. In my case ~1.4mg of calculated salvinorin (~10 mg of the pictured product above) gave mild effects (expected for this route of administration).
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
Loveall
#27 Posted : 12/15/2017 4:25:48 PM

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I had another experience with the complexed salvia last night.

25mg sublingual this time.

25mg was a small amount comfortable to fit and keep in the mouth even after 15 min of salivation. Come on was nice and slow, typical of chewing leaves. Taste was only slightly bitter at the beginning, turning a minty fresh and pleasant later on. Absolutely no discomfort from excess bitterness and the small amount of material is not bulky at all.

I began by feeling warm. I was more aware of my skin also. Sensations kept on getting stronger. I started to feel like a was being drawn into a flat folding world which is where I go to immediately and irrevocably when smoking. Come on was so slow that I felt like I had a choice in the matter. I "decided" to skip that world to see something new. I saw waves of green gently waving plant like material and felt a kind female presence which seemed to observe me observe the plants. Then I started seeing this black painting with bright blocks of color. That imagery ended up taking me back to my childhood art class. I remembered painting a white cardboard in rainbow colors. Then covering all that up with a dark waxy film. Then, the class would scratch the wax away to reveal the colors underneath which would jump out against the black on beautiful colors. I could even smell the waxy black substance in my memory. This was a memory that I had lost, never has come up in my adulthood, but salvia gave it back to me and I can think about it now. It feels very nice. Unfortunately I started hearing noises at this time in the trip coming from upstairs. The noises where very annoying. I thought it was my wife talking on the phone (it was really her watching TV). I was so annoyed that I yelled "Who are you talking to!?". She was surprised since I have been a very mellow person after meditating with mushrooms, but something about being interrupted by noise during my salvia trip really made me surprisingly annoyed. I then moved to a different room to avoid the noise and came down. I masturbated while the enhanced skin feeling became apparent again during the end of the come down and had an extremely intense orgasm (way above normal). The whole thing lasted a little over an hour.

Today I feel great and refreshed and thankful for getting a beautiful childhood memory back. I want to try to do this again but will do so when alone, as the noises and my wife's presence really affected the trip. I think I will stay with the same dose next time, it was nice to be able to choose not going into the folding world (but next time I may not get a choice and I'm ok with that). After I do this dose for a few times and understand it better I'll try a higher dose. Nice thing is that the complexed salvia is ready at any moment, don't need to worry about rehydrating leaves, etc.

PS: This is the art project salvia brought back to my memory. It is a very fond memory. I'm going to do this art project with my kids now.

“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
physics envy
#28 Posted : 12/15/2017 5:48:02 PM

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Thank you for all of your work and reporting on this method, Loveall! This sounds like great news for those who need to use a ton of dried leaves when quidding.

Above where you say 3g dried leaf is 'supposed' to be light...I've been doing quids for the last few years (1-4 times/month) and I can consistently get to a nice light-medium level with only 750mg of dried leaf. I realize I'm probably on the far end of the scale for sensitivity when using this way, but just wanted to give some feedback on how low of a dosage is potentially required. I imagine 3g would be a rather heavy experience for me. I'm not sure if bodyweight comes into play at all or not, but I'm only 140# so perhaps that's relevant.
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Loveall
#29 Posted : 12/16/2017 3:12:33 AM

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Thank you for your kind words physics envy.

I have found through experience that I'm roughly average and fall in line with this table from erowid:



I think it is a mystery why the effects from the same dose of leaves vary so much between individuals. It could be due to different sensitivity, but also maybe due to different buccal absorption (?). How leaves are buccaly active and salvinorin absorbed while quidding is still a mystery I believe. With complexation, the mechanism is understood and utilized in a consistent manner in the medical field, but I'm not sure of the % of complexation with the simple process used here. Since HPBCD is soluble in water and not soluble in acetone, we can try to measure the complexation %.

In my case, it seems that complexation gave me stronger effects than quidding. The 25mg dose I took yesterday contained about ~3.6mg of salvinorin (and ~3.6g of plant material and ~18mg of HPBCD) or about 1.8g of dry leaves. I would need to take at least 2x that amount of dry leaves based on previous experience to have the same effects.

As mentioned before we need others to try complexation to check for confirmation that it works. Previous reports of buccal activity using alternative methods to quidding have been have inconsistent (and in a way quidding itself is variable), so we need to know how complexation does in person to person testing.



“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
JP
#30 Posted : 12/16/2017 5:34:50 AM

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This is awesome LoveallThumbs up . I will try this after my next harvest.

I plan to make an enchanted leaf quid from S. Recognita leaves as soon as I can (probably around June) but I may have to go this route with them as well. I was thinking of putting it in pouches like chew.
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Loveall
#31 Posted : 12/16/2017 9:01:02 PM

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Thanks JP. Quidding recognita leaves is going to be new and interesting work. Good point that complexation may be an option for recognita (hopefully not the only option for the buccal route). Can't wait for the next spring to get recognita going!
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
physics envy
#32 Posted : 12/18/2017 7:36:39 PM

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JP wrote:
...I may have to go this route with them as well. I was thinking of putting it in pouches like chew.


Hi Loveall - so with this method, do you not need to chew? You just stick the powder between your cheek and gums and it absorbs? Or did you infuse it back onto leaf...and chew/masticate 1.8g of leaf/quid like a regular quid? (Sorry if I'm overlooking this information...)

Hi JP - When I did my very first quid attempt, all I had were extremely crushed up leaves. I decided to get a box of empty tea bags to use as pouches. I think I put 0.5-1.0g in each. I chewed a few for a while, then replaced with new ones after a bit as the pouches tore up.

This worked just fine - however - I found that once it started to kick in and my mouth felt detached from my body, I became paranoid that I might accidentally swallow one of the pouches and get it stuck in my throat. At that point I spit everything out and the trip proceeded and declined as usual.

In any case...just wanted to relay the scare I had...going forward I wouldn't put anything in my mouth that I wouldn't mind accidentally swallowing once the trip gets going. Maybe the pouches you're thinking of are much smaller than the teabag pouches I have though...

Best of luck in your experiment!
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Loveall
#33 Posted : 12/18/2017 8:42:25 PM

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Hi physics envy. No chewing or leaf material. Simply sprinkle the powder under your tongue. After 5 minutes or so I swish the accumulated saliva around my mouth, but not sure if this is even needed. Spit after 15 to 20 minutes.

I weigh the powder on a small piece of paper on the mg scale. Then bring the same paper up to my mouth and tilt the paper so the powder slides under my tongue.

The entire process is very easy/simple.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
physics envy
#34 Posted : 12/19/2017 5:23:23 PM

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Wow - that sounds great!

Could the drying step be completed using a hotplate outdoors? (Or an electric skillet on low and maybe with a rag between the skillet and the pan?)

To make concentrated cannabis oil (for cancer, etc.), a rice cooker (outdoors) is frequently suggested for the reduction stage when alcohol is used...so maybe that?

Also, could another alcohol I have lying around be used? I have some 99% Isopropyl alcohol for other goodies already. Or maybe 151 rum as it might be easier to find in a small quantity locally?
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
physics envy
#35 Posted : 12/19/2017 6:08:00 PM

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This would be the correct item to purchase for the HPBDC, yes?

Cyclodextrin HPBCD
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Loveall
#36 Posted : 12/19/2017 7:00:12 PM

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Yes, that looks like the right material, HPBCD.

Regarding solvents used, I don't know what will or will not work outside of the 75% ethanol which worked for me. The method is based on technique N4 from the first attachment in post #23:

Patil J.S.*, Kadam D.V., Marapur S.C., Kamalapur M.V. wrote:
4. Solution/solvent evaporation method
This method involves dissolving of the drug and CDs
separately in to two mutually miscible solvents, mixing of
both solutions to get molecular dispersion of drug and
complexing agents and finally evaporating the solvent
under vacuum to obtain solid powdered inclusion
compound. Generally, the aqueous solution of CDs is
simply added to the alcoholic solution of drugs. The
resulting mixture is stirred for 24 hours and evaporated
under vaccum at 45 ºc. The dried mass was pulverized and
passed through a 60-mess sieve. This method is quite
simple and economic both on laboratory and large scale
production and is considered alternative to the spray
drying technique.


The way I interpret this is that you want drugs dissolved in alcohol and HPBCD in water in a miscible solution. So I think ethanol/water would be a good way to start. I did not dissolve everything separately as the text says, did all at once (extract, HPBCD and everclear). If you want to use IPA, add ~20% water to it and make sure you have enough IPA to dissolve all the salvinorin (ethanol can dissolve 1.4mg/ml and IPA 0.7mg/ml, please double check these numbers going off memory).

As far as evaporation the alternatives should work, but make sure the hot plate is not too hot and burns the powder when all the liquid is gone. I did not do vacuum evaporation but it still worked. Stirring for 24 hours may not be needed either (I've tried shaking for a few minutes and that seemed to work, but maybe stirring longer or using a magnetic stir plate for a day could give better results - I've tried a magnetic stirrer and did not notice a big difference vs. manually shaking the jar to stir.)

Good luck! Really looking forward to your results.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
physics envy
#37 Posted : 12/19/2017 7:49:06 PM

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Thank you, Loveall. I can get the 75 proof version here in California it appears, so I'll probably just do that and try to replicate your experiment as exactly as I can. However, I have a gas oven so I'll skip heating there and try an outdoor heating/reduction method.

To clarify the shaking/stirring step, you just manually shook a jar with the mixture for a few minutes, correct? Did you then let the mixture sit for 24 hours before heating/reducing, or did you start the heating step right away? (Sorry for such basic questions!)

The cyclodextrin is on its way, but won't be here until after xmas so I guess it will be at least a week before I can get started. I'm excited to try this new ROA!
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Loveall
#38 Posted : 12/19/2017 8:25:12 PM

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I used 75% everclear which is 150 proof. I shook for a while and proceeded to evaporate after making sure everything was dissolved, did not wait for 24 hours.

I'm very happy to answer everything I can. Looking forward to how this goes, an independent confirmation that this works is key to validate this method that InMotion proposed 5.5 years ago. Your work could be what finally establishes this new method.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
physics envy
#39 Posted : 12/19/2017 8:48:59 PM

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Thanks again, Loveall. Apparently CA doesn't allow the full 190 proof version, but it seems that in this case that's probably a-ok.

Roughly how long did the oven-drying process take for your batch of 200ml everclear?

At the moment I'm pretty low on leaf so will likely use a small test batch of crude extract...probably along the lines of 45mg salvinorin...so I'm guessing the drying should go rather quickly.

I'm hoping this works for others that I've tried to introduce quidding to more so than for myself. I'm lucky that I can use a tiny amount for a decent experience, so doubling or even quadrupling my standard amount of 0.75g of rehydrated leaf would be quite easy if I wanted a really strong experience. But most friends I know that have tried tend to need so much that I don't blame them for giving up...

Hopefully I'll have something to report shortly after the new year!
Salvia quid enthusiast
 
Loveall
#40 Posted : 12/19/2017 9:53:36 PM

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Evaporation went by pretty fast. Was done within two hours or less I believe. I watched it and at the point the solution went from transparent to cloudy in the warm oven (as mentioned above) I took a picture. Did not post it originally since the post was already pretty long, but here it goes:




After this cloudiness it coagulated before drying, but I don't have a picture of that. I'll take it next time I complex more extract.
“... (a) psychedelic substance occasionally causes psychotic behaviour in people who have not taken it.”
Excerpt from a McKenna talk transcript / audio.
 
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