Okay, so SWIM is brand new to this - much prior use of other psychedelics, but only just recently getting his feet wet in the mysterious spicey waters. He started quite cautiously a week ago with 15mg vaporized in a glass bong w/ hash oil bulb (quite effective), and has been working his way up in 5 and 10mg increments since, culminating most recently in an unbelievably blissful 50mg trip and a truly soul-rattling 60mg nutbuster, both earlier this afternoon.

SWIM has been trying very hard not to impose his own preconceived notions/expectations onto the experience going in, but it's challenging in the face of so very many corroborating (and fascinating) stories here and elsewhere. SWIM's issue (and the crux of the question he's hoping for help with) is this: NONE of his experiences thus far have been even remotely like ANYTHING he's read on these boards - no elves, no faeries, no clowns, no playroom, no secret handshakes with aliens - so he has to wonder if all this is just so much metaphor and hyperbole, or is he truly missing something. SWIM finds himself COMPLETEY unequipped to articulate even the broadest strokes of his experiences thus far, or even to recall much of anything beyond the tone and timber of every journey, but each time he gets off he's greeted with instant total recall and the overwhelming feeling of "that's right... now I remember...". His perceptions of time, space and self were entirely obliterated this afternoon, and the last journey felt literally like an eternity. But contact? What exactly is contact?

What he can put into words goes kind of as follows:

At lower doses he was definitely tethered to the physical world and OBSERVING 2-dimensional hallucinations. Somewhere around 30mg, the hallucinations took on physical depth and identity awareness began to erode (somewhat). Around 40mg he began to feel himself integrated into the objects he had previously just been observing. At 50mg he felt for the first time the sensation of being electrocuted at the onset, deep immersion/integration into his surroundings (which he can't even begin to describe with any kind of accuracy - except to say that rather than watching the inner workings of some huge cosmic machine, he actually became the machine, or a part of the machine - cogs and wheels or some such shit - although again, this is just so much of his own hyperbole, as it's not something he's capable of articulating). And at 60mg - heavy electrocution, overwhelming integration, complete obliteration of time perception and self (or physical identity, anyway), waaay too much data coming waaaay too fast to process, and a mindbending eternity of REAL fear before (or maybe upon) re-entry (which was MUCH less abrupt and more drawn out than in any previous encounters).

So, SWIM's weirdly self-conscious and neurotic issue here is this: he feels that the place he went on 30mg was basically the same place he went on 60mg - just exponentially deeper - kind of like stopping at a border town for an afternoon of shopping, as opposed to backpacking a month into the interior. Everyone here seems to get all wrapped up in the "breakthrough", and if what he experienced this afternoon wasn't one, he can't possibly conceive of what is, but lacking in objective data, SWIM just can't say for sure. He keeps expecting the rending membrane, the whacky elves, the hordes of alien probe dudes, and it's SO not like this for SWIM. What he has experienced so far is probably as close to a state of religious ecstasy as he's personally capable of (not being at all religious) - kind of what he imagines Joan of Arc might have felt as she found herself burning alive - so someone please, please tell me... is he not breaking through? Because he just can't lung any bigger a hit before losing complete motor function.

SWIM has found that everyone reacts VERY VERY differently to spice..it may have to do with your mind..it may have to do with your spice..it may have to do with what you ate..how imaginative you are..how comfortable you are with the experience..and how much you are prepared for it..it took SWIM 2 years of thinking and reading about it to finally get it..so he had all that time to build his own version of hyperspace..SWIM is not sure if this is so..

if you keep doing it..you will start seeing the broad range of experiences that one can have in hyperspace..

and yes SWIM puts a lot of emphases on breakthroughs..because its what SWIM feels is the best most amazing thing...why get halfway there when you know if you just commit..you can get into your own hyperspace..yeah nonbreakthroughs are fun..but they are nothing like going to a domed room for two years recalibrating his light body with 9 other entities...

some trips are more amazing than others..

another thing that SWIM noticed is that when he smoked it the first time..he didnt start with a low dose..he immediately put on everything that he had gotten from his first (crappy) extraction..this may have been 70-100mg..he wanted to see what hyperspace was..and he figured that might be his only chance..so he just went for it...and boy was he glad he did

Forget 'elves' and other people's obsession with 'breaking through'. Think for yourself and enjoy your own experiences (which SWIY seems to be doing). Full sensory integration into the experience, time dilation and compression, and a loss of the tether to perception of the physical reality of your surroundings sounds like a 'breakthrough' to me.

I always encourage people to have a look at this article:
http://www.tripzine.com/...ting.php?id=dmt_pickover

Before buying into the mumbo-jumbo (fun as it may be).

Thank you both for the input. SWIM is definitely not scared off, although his second go around yesterday was about as scary as anything he's ever encountered. Interestingly, the fear didn't really take hold in any meaningful way until the end of the peak period; it was once his ego began to creep back that the "oh shits" moved in and took over. He feels a bit beat up today, both physically (like he's full of lactic acid, and this too he wasn't expecting) and psychically (which he guesses is only reasonable), but fully intends to push through the fear and see what's around the next bend. He is however setting a limit, going forward, of journeying once a week. Part of the fear (and baggage brought into the experience) is that SWIM is liking this all too much, and is prone to unhealthy excesses.

It's just this preconceived notion of what a "breakthrough" actually is that is messing SWIM up at present, because his experience so far has been TRULY profound - just not at all what he thought it would be. He can't say as though he's felt the presence of another entity or entities - it's much more like he's a part of the ether, reduced (or enlarged) to the collective "one", the ineffable everything (or nothing). If there's something to really be learned from all this, to be understood and possibly integrated, it will probably take him a very long time and many, many journies. Could be he just isn't up to the task or capable of sufficient self-awareness.

Confusing stuff, this DMT. Again, any additional replies and words of wisdom are appreciated...

it sure is confusing stuff..once you get a nice relationship with the chemical it becomes much easier to deal with crazy experiences..you will learn how to bounce back..physically and psychically..rather quickly...

last night SWIM decided to smoke some and his computer took control of itself and was speaking in a sample like way(taking bits of recordings and making a new sentence) to him...it was like it was telling him what he was thinking about through his computer..and he was completely blocked from controlling it..he tried to..because it was rather strange hearing his computer talking to him in that way..

but you start to get use to the craziness of it all..so its not quite as profound as the first few dozen times you use it..BUT that doesnt mean it cant surprise you..which is does..and show you something more profound than anything you have every experienced..usually larger doses have a way of doing that sort of thing...but sometimes..you may be just trying to get a small hit..and end up blasting off into hyperspace at faster than light speed..only to end up in a new realm..

[quote=freethinker]Forget 'elves' and other people's obsession with 'breaking through'. Think for yourself and enjoy your own experiences (which SWIY seems to be doing). Full sensory integration into the experience, time dilation and compression, and a loss of the tether to perception of the physical reality of your surroundings sounds like a 'breakthrough' to me.

Thanks, freethinker. Great article, though I feel distinctly as if you've just told me there's no such thing as Santa Clause. SWIM has yet to draw any definitive conclusions about the overall nature of the experience, although not being prone to new-agey gobbledegook, he always leans towards Occam's Razor. Kent seems to give about as close and detailed a description (albeit the least romantic one) that he has actually come across. Regardless of the source, it's certainly an area of awe inspiring mystery. You've eased my breakthrough envy, considerably. Thanks for the measured response.

^^^ I wouldn't take that article as 'law' either. I think it's always worth being mindful that there are many possibilities and the status quo isn't necessarily the absolute 'truth'.

word up, its such a weird drug.. i wish i could show it to everyone.

I just turn my thoughts off like meditation.. im never thinking about elves & if i did it wouldnt show me them it would show me something unexpected..

ive even tryed to draw what im seeing while on acid & broke through, as i was coming down more able to move about i tryed to draw them & they went away..

their faces make up the whole screen sometimes, oddly disfigured eyes, making jokes


Has anyone seen the accordian like stuff? The jewel palaces, met three headed light beings..

it realy is like a funhouse in that sense, gypsy land i call it sometimes..

I literally saw clowns once, knew they were clowns walking upside down in a box, i just thought why clowns?

Thats f**kin' Hilarious Jorkest, lmfao

I hope it wasn't too scary.

haha no it wasnt scary..he yelled at his computer speakers..telling them that he knew already!!! "I fuckin get it already!!!" thats what he said i think..plus a few other things :-P

Thats not to say that you won't EVER meet elves, entites, beings, etc.

When I define something as 'entity' contact, it used to be because i'd received telepathic contact, but there have been several instances (lately) where it has been almost purely visual.

SWIM has seen plants transform into hooded & cloaked elves, though his concept of 'elves' before was more of a sexy fractal goo, which oozed out of the woodwork, to quote terrance mckenna, and telepathically reassured swim that they loved him.

And again, with the disembodied heads, which i like to call daemons, after that red and blue floating head thing from the game "Doom" (see here: http://www.dmt-nexus.me/....aspx?g=posts&t=3363 )

But in the case of another kind of entity, which SWIM is not ready to talk about yet, there was no telepathic message, but instead a fully visual, fully human collection of waves and smiles!

In another case, SWIM saw his hand, facing away from him and interpreted each finger as a seperate entity, but the whole hand as a family, his family. As he moved it away from him and closer to him (which was part of a bigger picture that I won't go into just now) it seemed to be taking photographs at different distances, representing an entire iteration of a 'families' lifecycle. He cannot explain how he knew this thing was an entity, or collection of entities, It just ... blatantly *WAS*. There was no two ways about it!


In short, Don't close your mind to the possibility. It may happen when you least expect it! SWIM doesn't encounter entities on *every* journey, and I don't see any reason why you should either.

Forget about the entities. Sometimes you might encounter something there sometimes not. You can breakthrough many times without ever meeting some spice elves or something there. Just enjoy your rides. It's not always fun to realize you're not alone. Some of these beings are scary

And we all are different and perceive life in a different way so we will all have very different trips. But there are usually some similarities. For example I also always get this "Yeah, that's how it is" when I haven't smoked for a while. It's weird how the memory of the place comes rushing into your mind.

I have never been to the fun house. No elves. Mostly high velocity blasts in outer space. Commonly I wittness the world is destroyed and rebuilt before my closed eye. A few small beings have transmitted the message dont worry about life all will be fine.

And of course I have been enlighitned many times. This info has to stay in the hyperspace libray referance section. Many times I have had breifly enjoyed, this blissfull knowledge.
The proublem is you cant bring it back when you return. If if anyone has returned with it please post.

Every experience is different. Most hallucinogens are just visual distorters. I did speak to the stump king and fought a giant spider once while trippin hard on salvia. In fact many of the times where I have seen entities have been on salvia. I've seen feet building walls. I've also had one amzing experience while lying in a tent. I was god, and my body was the earth, and on this earth I witness millions of years of creation and destruction and advancement and decline. As if i had watch homo sapiens from beginning to end. It was incredible, no way to describe it. But most it is deep thought and visual distortion. Try not to concentrate on the physical aspect. Never use a drug with expectations. It can ruin it. Concentrate on what's happening mentally. Explore the inner most depths of your mind. There are true hallucinogens where you cannot distinguish your hallucination from reality. Anti-cholinergics. Don't ever mess with em. It's not worth it. Unless the plant god of datura comes down to you in the flesh when your sober, don't mess with those.

Thank you everyone for the responses; they're really very helpful. SWIM is preoccupied to the point of obsession and on board for wherever this leads.

Yeah, just do your best to relax and not be preoccupied with the physical effects. Worrying and things like that are the number one killer of the experience.

I found the following passage in Strassman's book in which he describes the criteria of a mystical experience, and it actually articulates much of my early higher dose experience much better than I am able to:

There no longer is any separation between the self and what is not the self. Personal identity and all of existence become one and the same. In fact, there is no "personal" identity because we understand at the most basic level the underlying unity and interdependence of all existence.
Past, present and future merge together into a timeless moment, the now of eternity. Time stops, inasmuch as it no longer "passes". There is existence, but it is not dependent upon time. Now and then, beore and after, all combine into this exact point. On the relative level, short periods of time encompass enormous amounts of experience.
As our self and time lose their boundaries, space becomes vast. Like time, space is no longer here or there but everywhere, limitless, without edges. Here and there are the same. It is all here.
In this infintely vast time and space with no limited self, we hold up to examination all contradictions and paradoxes and see they no longer conflict. We can hold, absorb, and accept everything our mind conjures up: good and evil, suffering and happiness, small and large. We now are certain that consciousness continues after the body dies, and that it existed long before this particular physical form. We see the entire universe in a blade of grass and know what our face was like before our parents met.
Extraordinarily powerful feelings surge through our consciousness. We are ecstatic, and the intensity of this joy is such that our body cannot contain it - it seems to need a temporarily disembodied state. While the bliss is pervasive, there's also an underlying peace and equanimity that's not affected by even this incredibly profound happiness.
There is a searing sense of the sacred and the holy. We contact an unchanging, unborn, undying and uncreated reality. It is a personal encounter with the "Big Bang", God, Cosmic Consciousness, the source of all being. Whatever we call it, we know we have met the fundamental bedrock and fountainhead of existence, one that emantes love, wisdom and power on an unimaginable scale.

Just thought I would share it, as my own ability to translate the experience seems sorely lacking.

Yeah,
going a bit theoretical on it for the moment [well from 'this space' theoretical'].

There's been a good wack of investigation into the nature of these 'mystical' or 'enlightened' experiences, same with talk about the experiential nature of the world [pretty important in philosophies like zen].

Philosophers like Kant, Derrida, Schopenhauer also did stuff on the nature/limits of human knowledge and that which is beyond our conceptual understanding which is worth reading [although not so easy to read...]


A a test 'science' model though, perhaps it wouldn't be so surprising if you couldn't bring back alot of the knowledge from that space. it wouldn't neccessarliy be that it it didn't make sense, or was 'insane irrelevant misinterpreted connections', but you'd had to observe the potential nature of the systems.
If you for example looked at the mind as just another sense, and consciousness as an additional aspect that preceeds it (arguable of course), then bypassing standard body senses in one way or another (in this case DMT, or could be e.g. meditation etc) you could attempt to gain further intelligibility.

From memory, language allows us to explain up to second order concepts, math and physics we use for up to 4th order and then we go to logic.
So, if this is the case it wouldn't necessarily be surprising if we couldn't use words very easily to explain these DMT experiences, [much like many things in math or physics].
there do seem to be trends in that once an understanding of a concept/experience is had humans attempt to 'translate' it down to common speak.
e.g. Buddha, relativity theory basics etc.

But understandably things like that can take a while and a good effort with solid systems to distill down that understanding to a more common level of connection.

Jumping as an example to the nature of hyperdimensional shapes, while we can't see them in this world, we can still provide a map and intelligible explanation of them as well as then use that information in ways we find interesting/beneficial (but of course it did take alot of people putting a big effort into that). Same with for Quantum theory.

So in summary, I'd imagine it'd be really hard from our current perspective/language limits to 'bring back' these experiences in a way that they would be easily intelligible until a system was developed that could directly cater for the [potential] nature of DMT space. But hell, they've done it for other previously unexplainable things. And there are other language systems or philosophies that could be useful??? e.g. dialectical logic (and any logic systems that are comfortable with paradoxes), Taoism? Hopi Indian language, or any language that has less of the subject-object distinction etc.


Perhaps another question to ponder as well is the nature of 'emotions' in DMT space.
If consciousness precedes emotions, then how do the 'ecstatic' or 'emotive' style moments relate, [i.e. are they just the way our mind in this space interprets them in the end and actually a whole different order in that space] if emotions are purely a physical aspect. [from memory, and hopefully our classics expert can help on this? The early greeks believed that once you died you no longer had emotions in the afterlife, also is it true that early greek didn't have so much subject-object distinction in their language for desrciptions of things?]

basically its a big mind/matter/consciousness question that's gonna be really tricky.

Go all the way man ! And report back ! Remind us of the AllThatIs !... And let's get more data on that question of "are there entities or not?"

And we should tell everyone that it is our birthright to discover this - before we die again - that we can ...

"... contact an unchanging, unborn, undying and uncreated reality." ... We can experience 'the other side'. To me this is the White Light of God, a Unitary state ... This is the supreme Being or 'entity' you'll fuse with - have a Beingasm Today !

On other journeys I have met the same being but less intensely, appearing as The 'Other' - an infinate intelligence that pervades all creation. The mother-of-all-elves sometimes is a huge snake, or Indra's Net speckled with born and unborn souls. The Other has a heirarchy of unborn spirits and non-physical entites 'in' it - and once you're there you can interact with more of this Intelligence's facets ...

I have just 'gotten to' the point, with practice, of knowingly reaching for this "Other" when I launch - expecting to meet it. I find/recall that the Intelligence just wants us to acknowledge it with as much intensity of Love as possible - whatever it shows you - shine the light of Love on it, and watch it morph'. Lucidly loving the Other - consciously acknowledging it ... That's all I can do really - or it seems that's all the Other wants me to do, to generate a conscious connection of love, with it ... On the come-down, it feels like a huge download happened.

I can't really say that I've journeyed so far with any specific intention. Still very much in the getting my feet wet, finding my bearings stage. I've felt so far like this has been instrumental to my enjoyment (and courage in upping the dose) - just strapping in and enjoying the ride - but I'm hopeful that with practice will come the ability to navigate somewhat. For now, just basking in awe and ecstasy is all I can really manage.