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'Mapping' DMT space? Options
 
rawmo
#1 Posted : 1/26/2009 4:50:09 AM

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Hey there,

Does anyone know if there have been any consolidated attempts to 'map' aspects of DMT space.
While there is [i'd imagine] a certain impossibility of this as a complete project, from a research science/psycology perspective, (and in particular) from reading the experiences on this site there seems to be a great deal of similarity of experience. i.e. a fundamental (from our perspective) structure.
For example - beings that are interacted with, particular shapes / dimensions, visual representations etc.

Whilst certain aspects may of course be impossible, collating the similarities and seeing if any form of structure of the phenomena could start to be brought together or made more consistently intelligible,
[for example as Claude Levi Strauss did in the 50's with myths and legends around the would, or Mathematicians have done with hyper-dimensional topology etc].

Might end up with nothing, but then again, there seem to be alot of people on this site with some pretty specialised skills and knowledge that might be able to apply to it.

the fact that 'we' can perceive it ,and in a sense consistently relate that experience to others would indicate that it could be possible.
who knows, it might even lead to a scientist doing some experiments that showed its validity for our day to day world.

[of course, as Alfred Korzybski said, 'the map is not the territory', but maps can still be useful if you wanna go visiting friends in other cities Wink ) ]
 

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shoe
#2 Posted : 2/4/2009 8:42:44 AM

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I have some ideas as to how that could go:

as a programmer... We could have an object oriented GUI with a keyword search, so that when the average user comes along after an experience, he types a few keywords and searches the inter-related 'hyperspace' objects for these keywords. A hyperspace object would have description of the space, the entities encountered, predominant moods etc, and a picture. That way, if there is something which relates strongly to what somone else has seen, a place somone else has been, then user can mark it as having been visited and we can pretty quickly come up with somekind of abstract map of related experiences.

EDIT: wooo! 300 posts Very happy
shoe

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rawmo
#3 Posted : 2/4/2009 9:26:05 AM

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Cool,
that could definitely be useful.

So basically setting up a matrix of these experiences,
I'd imagine / hope that it might set up attractor basins of these experiences that could start to coalesce into basic forms of the experience
e.g.
entity forms [to set up a rational morphology like biologists do for plants and animals (and chemists do for crystals)]
geometries [general shapes of things]
'rooms' or spaces
'colors'
moods etc

if there started to [for example] be general related areas etc found that could also perhaps be useful for people involved in the SHE? [i.e. potential meeting points]
I'm sure there'd be specialists in each of these fields that could assist


does anyone know of any scientific work done on the nature of psychedelics [e.g. visuals etc]

I'm doing some research @ the moment on the web of science, but if anyone has any immediate refs that'd be cool.
 
Phlux-
#4 Posted : 2/4/2009 11:29:58 AM

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im amped to contribute and being a "software architect"(yeah its a snazzy word for a programmer) i agree with this approach - perhaps we can immediately jump to defining the variables -
Structure for entities may be a good starting point.
Like :-
did they communicate with you
what was their mood
etc...

reading the above post - i wondered - im always in a kind of womb on spice - are there open spaces ?

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...purity of intent....purity of execution....purity of experience...

...unlike the "blind leading the blind". we are more akin to a group of blind-from-birth people who have all simultaneously been given the gift of sight but have no words or mental processing capabilites to work with this new "gift".

IT IS ONLY TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE WILLING TO EXPOSE OURSELVES OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO ANNIHILATION THAT WE DISCOVER THAT PART OF OURSELVES THAT IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.


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Jorkest
#5 Posted : 2/4/2009 3:37:42 PM

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most certainly...a few times SWIM has gone to places that he can see off into the distance..horizons and everything..with creatures doing stuff in the periphery..other times hes been shown door ways..that beyond are huge landscapes(then the spice runs out)...also been to larger rooms..or archives..domed rooms with entities..being taken along corridors..hes been to homes..with coffee tables and everything...and one floating baby(strange)..and then sometimes hes just spun all around in 4d circles..
it's a sound
 
rawmo
#6 Posted : 2/7/2009 2:55:33 AM

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Ace,

I've got a good wack of biosciences experiences [comparative anatomy, taxonomy, systems theory etc] and philosophy (might help with some of the really weird stuff Wink ) that should hopefully be useful to add to the computer peoples skills.

Someone with psychology/psychiatry experience would also be useful [for the quantitative/qualitative crossover].
Same with maths/physics cats for any dimension 'classifications'.

So maybe in relation to the ideas so far put forward.

An entity matrix is a good starter for ten.

we could start to define our general states perceived [post them up and one of the computer types can start putting it into a matrix]

e.g
Morphology [bilaterally symmetrical, tri, pentagonal (e.g like a starfish), changing symmetry etc etc etc.
There are some good works by A. Lima-de-Faria, Geoffroy St Hilaire, D'arcy Thompson that provide some good fundamental symmetry structures that occur in this space that I could re-format as a start off

# of appendages, means of locomotion, singular or 'hive' style entity,
perhaps if it can be based upon and developed from a structure familiar to our space time it will also lead to a solid quantitative basis for the qualitative experience [or intelligible link].

same would go for the more communication aspects
i.e.
moods 'emotions'
method of communication [talk, telepathy, visual signs etc]
'machinery'
etc etc etc

maybe particular forum users with interest in a particular aspect would want to take on a basic section of the phenomena to create basic matrix nodes [characteristics] for the programmers.

Once this matrix was initially up and running (as someone else mentioned from memory) people could go log their experiences and then we'd gradually get a map, or set of form/communication/visual pattern attractor basins.

it could also be good (if people wanted) to map this in relation to sex/sexual identity (to see if there is a general differences between different gender identities experiences). Also perhaps in relation to
general things going on in their day or their day to day personal interests etc.

 
Nanaki
#7 Posted : 2/7/2009 3:25:09 AM

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I've seen control panels on a ship of some sort with a beautiful planetary display like it was above some planet, and was thinking that nobody should have been allowed to see that. Quite interesting, it was as if those on that ship didn't know I was there or something.
Nanaki, of course is a fictional video game character. He never does drugs that would alter consciousness. He only thinks he does.
 
coz42
#8 Posted : 2/7/2009 3:25:25 AM

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This whole mapping hyperspace ideal is reminiscent of a screen saver program, electric sheep. Collaborative work of fractals and animations in a mainframe to produce visuals and create new breeds of images through changes in code. If there would be any open source program available with the closest thing to 'mapping' a visual distortion of life's mysteries. Not just because of the funky fractal patterns, but because of the collaborative effort among users feeding new information in&out of the matrix. Maybe synchronicity in hyperspace realms is too farfetched to look into, but one cannot pass up the recurrences.

There's a trillion*Π instances of therianthropes, recurring mythology, and a fascinating folklore behind it all.. but when the discussion of otherworldly machinery to sentience intel comes to discussion it feels as if the new age myth has just been brushed on.
In the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught. ~Baba Dioum
 
rawmo
#9 Posted : 2/7/2009 9:56:51 AM

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So Phlux & Shoe,

Would you be able to easily set up a basic table structure that could be downloaded [excel or whatever computer people use ] to enter in fields for construction of a matrix of the various aspects of the DMY experience?,
[as so standardise / make easier the process for everyone interested in this [particularly for the people who opt to create a GUI and analysis system]]

Or what would be easiest do you reckon?
 
Infundibulum
#10 Posted : 2/7/2009 4:26:53 PM

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I like the idea of mapping the dmt hyperspace.

Don't you think however that the current data on such a database will tunnel people's experiences to verify the existing models rather than reporting mode diverse ones?


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rawmo
#11 Posted : 2/7/2009 10:38:55 PM

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Quote:
I like the idea of mapping the dmt hyperspace.

Don't you think however that the current data on such a database will tunnel people's experiences to verify the existing models rather than reporting mode diverse ones?


Depends on how you set it up.
If it's a post trip report then perhaps they will have already have have their 'unique' experience, and the mapping matrix would be a secondary tool to allow a kind of intercommunication of general experiences between people.

For example -
When people go out into the forest and experience the trees, each tree is an individual experience for the observer, but for communication between observers general connectors are required [e.g. it had big wide leaves, or needle type leaves].
It is of course always going to be hard (exactly as you pointed out) to not have the system 'determine' what we observe.
i don't think there is an easy way out of that,
however, by starting somewhere we can also see if we can develop a system that reduces this as much as possible without also losing the ability to attempt to get some extra intelligibility and foothold of the phenomena in DMT space.

As long as there is also an 'others/none of the above' box, then that can be assessed [or perhaps it could even notify an 'other' trend to be put into the general options boxes if there seems to be a similarity of this (e.g. if lots of people enter 'it had 16 arms and was throwing donuts' all of a sudden].

Equally, there is the unique / diverse nature, but also seems to be that people can to an extent shape their journey, (which could be helpful for potential meet ups in the SHE as you would have a whole load of familiar 'agreed' aspects to look for)

So yeah, assuming that our preconceptions can influence DMT space journeys, that could be disadvantageous to an extent on one side but highly advantageous on another (e.g. meeting up in there or taking it to deeper levels of interaction within a 'known' framework).

Don't suppose we'll know until we try??
 
rawmo
#12 Posted : 2/8/2009 4:28:26 AM

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Here's a quick table i whipped up [too hot today to do any real work], based on a quick trawl thru the nexus experience section and Strassman's book.
rawmo attached the following image(s):
DMT Space 2.jpg (111kb) downloaded 475 time(s).
 
Nanaki
#13 Posted : 2/8/2009 4:39:13 AM

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I take it this is for mapping only breakthrough experiences. So if we see some entities but haven't quite broken through, that doesn't count? SWIM has seen elves and clowns well before the state of breaking through.

He has become more fond of ayahuasca, but hasn't taken breakthrough doses on this yet.

One should have intents of what to focus on when going in. Hopefully the entities appreciate us wanting to map their world.
Nanaki, of course is a fictional video game character. He never does drugs that would alter consciousness. He only thinks he does.
 
rawmo
#14 Posted : 2/8/2009 4:57:26 AM

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Quote:
I take it this is for mapping only breakthrough experiences. So if we see some entities but haven't quite broken through, that doesn't count? SWIM has seen elves and clowns well before the state of breaking through.

He has become more fond of ayahuasca, but hasn't taken breakthrough doses on this yet.

One should have intents of what to focus on when going in. Hopefully the entities appreciate us wanting to map their world.


I'd say it could be for both, just that a 'breakthrough' dose would have more fields to enter upon return : )
I'm of the personal opinion that it's not such a 'there or not' thing and more of a transition (perhaps with certain threshold plateaus, but not hard 'there/not there' )
Personally i've always found the entities pretty friendly (as have most friends) all round, and it might mean [that in the case that they are not just complex 'delusions' that we can play / hang out with them and communicate more...??
 
Jorkest
#15 Posted : 2/8/2009 2:42:13 PM

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i could see how this might also help people write up reports for SHE events
it's a sound
 
diamond
#16 Posted : 2/10/2009 11:25:16 AM

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Ahh yes please! Awesome idea can we start straight away!!

As an artist it would be wonderful to see what others are experiencing to learn about the similarities and differences of peoples journeys!
Exciting for sure..Im also interested in the differences between males and females visuals if there are differences thats is. My girls friends have had fairies and angels and I have had similar...

yay

Smile
 
kaos.underwave
#17 Posted : 2/14/2009 6:04:30 AM

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yes yes yes, brilliant ideas! lets go! pool the knowledge! collaborative research!
Onwards and upwards
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rawmo
#18 Posted : 2/15/2009 6:38:27 AM

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kaos.underwave wrote:
yes yes yes, brilliant ideas! lets go! pool the knowledge! collaborative research!


Ace,
Any ideas to start from? or particular skills you are able to add in : )

Would it perhaps also be able to be developed into a section of the DMT wiki at some stage ?
 
kaos.underwave
#19 Posted : 2/19/2009 1:50:41 AM

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I'm working on it, but its complicated... hard to structure and describe...Im gonna need pictures to illustrate some ideas I have.

hardest component with the kind of thing Im imagining is the technical process of programming it. [cos i dont have a clue]

Good news is we have plenty of information to start inputting right here in the experiences forum,
and plenty of dedicated individuals to contribute raw data to the map, once its up and running. With a constant inflow of data, a lot of trends could manifest quite quickly I reckon

get my gui ideas up soon
Onwards and upwards
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psychedeliack
#20 Posted : 4/15/2009 3:14:38 AM

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This idea sounds like a profound task to say the least, Im all for anything I can contribute to it.

I am curious, how many of you are talking about 5-meo-dmt? when I compare the two, they seem like completely different "spaces". How would you compare the two spaces? Should the map be dynamic in the different approaches?

Maybe its just me, but mapping nn space seems plausible, mapping 5-meo space, not so much. If I had to make an analogy for the two experiences, it would be, that humans smoke nn dmt, and aliens smoke 5 meo.
Not in a sense that one is better than the other, but just that what I get from 5 meo really causes me to question the way we interpret the concept of space alltogether.

If there is one thing I have learned from 5meo, is that god or source is all there is, everything else is hypothetical. Not exactly illusory, but like McKenna states, 'real enough'. So mapping DMT space persay, is an interesting concept to say the least.

Will it be a map to get some'where', or just to see the potential of the space? both?

I ask these questions, because Im absolutely sure there are warp zones. Laughing We'll probably have to map those out too.

Perhaps incorporating the quaballistic tree of life or buddhist mandalas could help, you know, just getting some of the concepts from pre existing maps of this sort of space.
"god is all there is" Everything stated herein, happened in dreams. "as above, so below"
 
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