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Alicia anisopetala (Black ayahuasca) & macrodisca and related vines workspace Options
 
endlessness
#1 Posted : 6/18/2012 2:26:55 AM

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This thread will be dedicated to Alicia anisopetala & Alicia macrodisca, sometimes sold as Black Ayahuasca. It's important to note that it seems some vendor sell Banisteriopsis caapi as black ayahuasca, while it seems that in peru, the more well known black ayahuasca is actually a vine belonging to the Alicia genus.



Entropymancer wrote:
Some background on Alicia anisopetala and the genus Alicia

The genus Alicia is part of the same family as other ayahuasca vines (Malpighiaceae). At present, there are only two species recognized as belonging to this genus: A. anisopetala and A. macrodisca. Both were formerly considered to be members of the genus Mascagnia, which was essentially a catch-all genus that included anything that didn't fit nicely into the other related genera (Triopterys, Tetrapterys, Hiraea, etc.). It's unsurprising that when modern genetic analysis was applied, Mascagnia was shown to be polyphyletic, and several of its members were split into new genera. Details on this split can be found in Anderson 2006.


Nomenclature
Alicia anisopetala (A. Jussieu in A. St.-Hilaire) W.R. Anderson.
  • =Hiraea anisopetala A.Juss.
  • =Mascagnia anisopetala (A. Juss.) Griseb.
  • =Hiraea macrocarpa Chodat
  • =Mascagnia nobilis C.V. Morton

Alicia macrodisca (Triana & Planchon) W.R. Anderson
  • =Mascagnia macrodisca (Triana & Planch) Nied.
  • =Mascagnia anisopetala var. macrodisca (Triana & Planch.) Kosterm.
  • =Hiraea macrodisca Triana & Planch



Chemistry
There are no reports in the literature of anyone studying the chemistry of A. anisopetala or A. macrodisca. This obviously makes it difficult to find a starting point in identifying the unknown peaks from Endlessness' GCMS data. The next step is to consider the chemistry of closely-related species to see if they contain the same (or structurally related) compounds.


Closely-related species
At present, the best-resolved phylogenetic tree containing A. anisopetala (under the synonym Mascagnia anisopetala) comes from Davis et al. 2002. The most closely related species surveyed in that paper were Callaeum septentrionale and Mascagnia bracteosa [=Malpighiodes bracteosa]; the data supports placing these three generea (Alicia, Callaeum, and Malpighiodes) in a single clade.

This close relation to the genus Callaeum initially seems promising. Callaeum antifebrile is used in folk medicine as a febrifuge and seems to be associated with B. caapi. I've seen several claims that it is used as a hallucinogen (e.g. Johnson 1986), but these claims all seem to refer to a 1943 report which says no such thing ("Both plants [B. caapi and C. antifebrile] are used in popular medicine and sorcery, but I do not know if the species I am now describing has any narcotic propriety"; Ducke 1943). It is known by common names including bejuco de las calenturas (fever vine), agahuasca, ayahuasca negro, shillinto (a Peruvian term for ayahuasca), shillinto blanco, and shillinto negro (Johnson 1986). But as promising as this sounds as a lead for identifying the unknown peaks, it may be a dead end; C. antifebrile has been found to contain harmine (Schultes 1982), and this is likely responsible for its activity as a febrifuge. For anyone interested in digging through the literature on this plant (what I've presented here is only touching the surface [edit: see post #141]), the following is a list of botanical synonyms you may encounter:

Callaeum antifebrile (Ruiz ex Grisebach) D.M. Johnson
  • [=Banisteria antifebrilis Ruiz ex Griseb.]
  • [=Cabi paraensis Ducke]
  • [=Mascagnia psilophylla var. antifebrilis (Griseb.) Nied.]
  • [=Mascagnia psilophylla f. peruviana Nied.]


The genus Malpighiodes is another that was split from Mascagnia in 2006. It contains four species: M. bracteosa, M. guianensis, M. leucanthele, and M. liesneri. I haven't yet searched the literature for these names (or their botanical synonyms) to see if any chemical analysis or ethnomedicinal uses have been reported. I would encourage anyone with the spare time to do so.



References



Alicia anisopetala (Black ayahuasca)




Herbarium Vouchers: Herbarium 1 and 2, Botanical drawing and description

Distribution:

c

Vendors: Vendor 1 (seeds, vine, live plant) , Vendor 2 (Sells as B. caapi black but seems to be A anisopetala as above) and vendor 3 (vine)


Alicia macrodisca



Herbarium Botanical Voucher: 1; Botanical drawing and description
Vendors: Vendor 1 (seeds, live plant)
 

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Dan
#2 Posted : 6/18/2012 2:55:02 AM

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Very nice thread endlessness.

Few notes on Alicia. It is very hairy leaved. the smell is distinct. the vine bleeds black when cut. It grows very uniformly compared to caapi. Also the baby leaves start grey colored and then go light green to dark green. its quite beautiful.

Not sure whether my vine is macrodisca or anisopetala. Was originally sold as diplopterys cabrerana, but thats another story. Either way it is Alicia.

Here is a pic I have on my comp from many months ago of a young Alicia vine.

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endlessness
#3 Posted : 6/18/2012 11:20:29 AM

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Thanks Dan!

I've updated the first post with some more images and links.

Now here's a question I have. In the two botanical herbarium vouchers from Alicia anisopetala linked above, the first says: Petals white or very pale pink, the second says: "flores: amarillas" (meaning yellow flowers) . So which is it, is it white, is it yellow? Surely the same species can't have flowers of two different colors?

And related to your post, Dan, the second link says: "Las hojas tiene pelos finos que pican en el cuerpo dando un escozor muy irritante", which translates to "the leaves have fine hairs that sting and create an irritating burning sensation". I found no such description with macrodisca, but maybe it just wasnt mentioned (it also wasnt mentioned in the other herbarium voucher for anisopetala).
 
SnozzleBerry
#4 Posted : 6/18/2012 12:58:14 PM

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endlessness wrote:

Now here's a question I have. In the two botanical herbarium vouchers from Alicia anisopetala linked above, the first says: Petals white or very pale pink, the second says: "flores: amarillas" (meaning white flowers) . So which is it, is it white, is it yellow? Surely the same species can't have flowers of two different colors?

Maybe I missed it when I just glanced at the vouchers, but I didn't see anything about yellow flowers. You also didn't mention anything about yellow flowers until you asked if it was white or yellow...did you mean pink?

If you meant very pale pink (and really, imo it's still a valid possibility if it says yellow somewhere) it could be that the different colored flowers are simply color morphs of A. anisopetala. These would be specimen that differ only by flower color and readily breed with each other, preventing them from being classified as different species or subspecies.

Wikipedia on polymorphism:
Quote:
Polymorphism in biology occurs when two or more clearly different phenotypes exist in the same population of a species — in other words, the occurrence of more than one form or morph. In order to be classified as such, morphs must occupy the same habitat at the same time and belong to a panmictic population (one with random mating). Polymorphism is common in nature; it is related to biodiversity, genetic variation and adaptation; it usually functions to retain variety of form in a population living in a varied environment.
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endlessness
#5 Posted : 6/18/2012 1:06:20 PM

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Sorry snozz fixed my mistake, I mean the second says "yellow flowers" ....

Thanks for the botanical info. I wonder if we have more descriptions of flowers from A. anisopetala/macrodisca anywhere
 
Zaka
#6 Posted : 6/19/2012 2:57:19 AM
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Irie,
I'll post pics of Alicia anisopetala tomorrow....
Grown from seed two & half years old, source Kiwi..
Flowers are pale lilac.
Leave are somewhat furry!
I've not found another malpighiacea that has any description of flowers similar...
Effects dramatic...
Respect,
Z
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Dan
#7 Posted : 6/19/2012 11:41:59 PM

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Beautiful pics as always zaka. You sure do have a green thumb
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endlessness
#8 Posted : 6/20/2012 12:10:45 AM

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Zaka can you share some of your experiments with it? Did you take it together with DMT?

At what dosages, what were the effects like, compared to other vines?

Thank you for sharing, this is great addition to the thread, beautiful picture and lovely plants Smile
 
Zaka
#9 Posted : 6/20/2012 3:32:06 AM
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Irie,
Well I've only tried it once with;
75g of my best'est homegrown Caapi (ceilo).
To which was added 10g Alicia...this was actually bits of stems I collected after harvesting the seeds.
Brewed 3x3, dash of cider vinegar.. (although the last one went down the drain thanks to the mrs.)
Reduced to 75ml. drunk in two shots 20mins apart.
Came on after another 45mins.
Oral purge about 1.5hrs, backended explosions after 3hrs, then again in the morning (8hrs) .
Effect still noticeable in the morning. Total duration 10hrs.
OEV's & strobing, CEV were great journey.
It was comparable with 25g P.Alba with the same vine except duration was much longer.....
I don't have any experience with pure x-d*t as yet, so can not say if it was in there or not??
But compared to my aya experiences, better than alba, not as focused/sharp/clear as hostilis..but longer!!!!!!!
Will have an independent assessment soon!
I usually brew for four, gave two away to a buddy, still one in the fridge!
Tasted typically aya, disgusting!
Respect,
Z
 
flowersniffer
#10 Posted : 9/4/2012 4:45:20 AM

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So I finally got round to brewing up 250 gms of Alicia Anisopetala. I brewed 2 X 3 hrs and the last boil for 6 hrs. Vinegar was added to the first and second boils. I reduced the remains down to 250 ml

It smelled pretty similar to caapi whilst it was cooking and the final product tastes very similar, but more watery, if that makes sense. The watery taste makes me think that I haven't possibly got all the actives out...We'll see...

I've only been microdosing so far, taking sips from the pot whilst boiling and for the last 3 evenings I've been sipping from the bottle (not more than 5 grams)

So far I have felt no physical effects, but last night I smoked a VERY small amount of grass and did some yoga asanas and meditation and I had visions of black jungle cats (panther?) and felt myself become this animal while doing some of the poses. I was very centred and concentrated, more than usual while this was happening, it felt very real and took me quite by surprise. Whether this was an effect of the Alicia, I don't know, but it happened very spontaneously and was very real.

I don't have the time or the right situation at present to go full tilt with an admixture and all, but will continue the microdosing and slowly raise the dose. my experience last night makes me feel that this plant is a very powerful spirit teacher and I have very little experience in the realms of Aya, so I will try and let her lead me.

Here are some pics so that others can compare...



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rahlii
#11 Posted : 11/17/2012 4:24:05 AM

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Has there been any recent discoveries into what the actives are in both the vine and leaves of this plant?
From where is the noise?
 
phyllode
#12 Posted : 11/17/2012 7:11:44 AM

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Has been quiet for a bit. Me curious too.
 
3rdI
#13 Posted : 11/17/2012 10:45:12 AM

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I would really like to know if anyone has extracted any Alicia.

I extracted some black vine that brewed up like Alicia but when extracted it gave me some brown crystals that are nothing like Caapi/rue harmalas.

I would be interested to know if this is what others get from Alicia because if not I have no idea what's in the vine I have.
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flowersniffer
#14 Posted : 12/1/2012 7:31:19 AM

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I plan to do an extraction, but am seriously busy at the mo so not sure when I'll have the time. I'll report back once it's been done.

I'm also curious as to why it's gone quiet after so much activity around these novel vines???
 
Jees
#15 Posted : 12/1/2012 9:02:05 AM

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EDITED: confusion about BLACK VINE has made me pulling back this post
 
AlbertKLloyd
#16 Posted : 2/16/2013 7:12:16 PM

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I had obtained some so called Black caapi in a trade years ago and noticed it looked very different than my other caapi. I assumed it was just a different species but now think it was Alicia spp based on how it looked. Might or might not be this same as here.

I used it is smaller and larger amounts, noticing effects that were dose dependent and I combined it with various things (I don't want to detail this because I don't want to encourage it)


I also examined the glow of the material with a black light and can tell you that the color of the glow was very reminiscent of a betacarboline, but the color was a slightly different shade than that of caapi. The Black material was more blue... hard to describe without a picture, sorry.

the flavor and tingle of the material when held in the mouth was very caapi like


 
Thunderhorse
#17 Posted : 5/2/2014 4:56:32 PM

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Zaka , your pictures are proper baddass !
thank you !
I can't wait to see my little whipper snappers eventually make it to full blown
here is one of 4
i suppose you think that's real fwokken funneh huh? x] baaaasterdz
 
SnozzleBerry
#18 Posted : 5/2/2014 6:23:47 PM

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That looks significantly different than what my seedling looked like. Mine looked near identical to Dan's. Perhaps it will change as it gets larger? Please keep us updated Smile
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Thunderhorse
#19 Posted : 11/12/2015 7:37:35 AM

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wow it and I have been through some challenges lately but with one survivor
that I am anxiously monitoring, and another 5 samaras sown yesterday ..
here's some update pics if I can remember how to attach them..
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i suppose you think that's real fwokken funneh huh? x] baaaasterdz
 
Beelzebozo
#20 Posted : 11/12/2015 5:51:13 PM

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Not much to add to this conversation except to say that I'm fascinated. Really interested in hearing what the alkaloid content is, if there are even any known alkaloids in the stuff.

In fact, I just ordered some seeds.
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