Hello all

I'm an ayahuasquero and I've been participating in multiple traditions in Brazil since 1999, and also have some history with other ethnobotannicals and psychedelics.

After drinking and preparing ayahuasca according to traditions for more than a decade, I decided to open up and experiment the approaches people are having around the world to these plantas.

Thanks!

sbarret77, Welcome!

Nice to see you wearin' your aya stripes, hic!

Welcome to the nexus!

"I decided to open up and experiment the approaches people are having around the world to these plantas."

This sounds interesting..can you elaborate on that? Are you working with some other analogue plants?..other entheogens?..or just trying different ways of working with ayahuasca?

..welcome sbarret77
look forward to your perspectives on plants and ceremony, and hearing of your experimentation..
are you thinking of meeting some new plant teachers?
.

Welcome to the Nexus!

thanks everyone!





I've had almost ten years of researching psychoactives by myself in the dawn of the internet - form early nineties to early 2000's; I tried and studied everything that I could get my hands on these days, were information was more scarce and the now defunct lycaeum.org was being born. Since I'm from Brazil, the Santo Daime ayahuasca church was always available, but I refrained from going there since I didn't want involvement in the heavily Christian oriented cult, and also the lack of freedom to meditate and be quiet during the ritual (you must dance and sing along their hymns).

Then, I was finally able to be accepted in the almost-closed cult of the UDV - Uniao do Vegetal. Still Christian/Spiritist, but it allowed me to drink ayahuasca and stay quiet in a comfortable seat. What else would I want? During the preparation rituals I could lay in hammocks, and drink ayahuasca for 3 days straight.

So, despite of not sharing 85% of my personal beliefs to the beliefs of that religion, I stayed there for a decade - drinking ayahuasca twice a month, at least.

Finally, more alternative options appeared in the ayahuasca scene in Brazil - shamanic, Indian... I found a group that bases its beliefs in 3 cycles - Hinduist (krishna centered), Buddhist and Christian, 4 months of the year each, and is very supportive to my line of thought (which is conceptually advaita, non dual). This place is also open to experimentations; they had sessions with Jurema, for example. For those who don't know, there's no such thing as ayahuasca with Mimosa hostilis in Brazil - only chacruna. Mimosa is something from the internet, not from any tradition here (the jurema brews are not really psychoactive, this is a huge misconception, they are part of rituals are similar to the African Camdomble and other African rituals).

So, after a decade focused only on traditional ayahuasca I decided to open up again and experiment with smoked DMT, try Changa, try the experiences people are having out there.

I had a very successful experiment already, with 4-AcO-DMT, which was a huge boost in my personal journey, but I failed my smoked DMT experiments for not being able to really hold the necessary amount of smoke in my lungs - that's something I have to study further.

So, in a general aspect I'm a bit different from other people around here that either extract DMT or have a DIY approach to ayahuasca - my experience is vast in traditional brew and traditional rituals. For example, I can easily distinguish a brew that was overdone with chacruna (too much of it), or made with Caupuri caapi, or done with Ourinhos caapi (aka Tucunaca); like those wine enthusiasts, after the years you can recognize the signature from each plant in the brew; at the same time, I never tried syrian rue or mimosa, since none is used here traditionally.

That's quite an entrance!
Welcome to the Nexus, hope you find this place informative and helpful in your journeys

Hey sbarret77, welcome to the Nexus, it's great to have you here

A question, if I may, on the botanical elements of something you mentioned (and something I've been curious about and trying to narrow down for the past months). You state:



Can you discuss these varietals in detail? Do they each differ from "standard" B. caapi? That is, is there a standard B. caapi (and what would it be called?) and then the varietals of caupuri and tucunaca/ourinhos?

If not...if there are only caupuri and ourinhos and all B. caapi is either one or the other, which would you think is the more "standard" caapi (i.e. which one are Westerners generally referring to when they mention B. caapi?) and why?

Additionally, what would you describe as being the qualitative difference between the two or three types of caapi, both by themselves and with a DMT admixture of some sort?

I hope these questions make sense...this is something that has been bubbling around my head for a while and I'd be excited if you could help give some clarity to this issue. If my questions are unclear, let me know and I'm happy to attempt to expound upon them.

Welcome!

Caapi is a hot topic lately around here, and any input you have would be greatly appreciated! The Vine has always been a somewhat mysterious subject. Extractions are one thing, but over time I have grown to appreciate the plants themselves much more.

Sure, there's no topic I like to talk more than this one

I'm happy people seem to be interested in caapi lately; I've been "preaching" for some time that the approach some people have where "caapi is just for inhibiting MAO, nothing else" is very, very, misguided. I've found people that affirmed there was no difference between having caapi or mocroblemide, and my personal experience always told a very different story.

Anyway, to discuss this subject I like to use a metaphor to food or drink, in order to gain a better perspective. I have the habit with my wife of cooking a recipe of flounder with creamed vegetables and white wine that is delicious. One day, we couldn't found flounder being sold, so we bought a similar fish. The texture was different, and the consistency was different, but we went ahead anyways "with all the spices and marinating, it will be just the same". Long story short, the taste was very different, and the recipe didn't work at all. If we look it from the outside we we're having fish, white fish fillet, with a fixed set of spices and side dishes, everything else was the same, the fish was almost the same, and nothing really tasted good.

Ok, back to the subject.
Just like a particular fish has taste signatures and very particular taste and texture characteritics, I find that the contents of a ayahuasca brew do have these too. Once you start noticing this particularities, the ayahuasca universe expands incredibily with the number of variables; was that caapi native or planted? Forest or drier ambient? Less than 7 years old or more? Were the thin branches or roots used? Was it scrubed to remove the lichens on its peel? Was it fresh, juicy or drier?

These are some variables only inside one variety of caapi; we have multiple varieties, then multiples varieties of chacruna, then multiple varieties of preparations (and even addictives in some cases). Using some combinatory math, the number of variables mixed result in a very, very large array of final characteristics to the brew.

Then some people argue: it's just a MAOI and DMT. This is all crap, nothing of this matters... It's true - in the end, the basic effect is that. But remember the food metaphor - just one ingredient tweak and the difference from a nice romantic dinner to a frustrating one was evident.

So, based on my personal experience, I have the belief that even small things count - and the caapi variety is not even a small thing, but a big one.

Both in Brazil and Peru/Colombia/Bolivia, there's one kind of caapi that is the most common - Tucunaca, or Ourinhos. In Peru there's a subdivision of Tucunaca in two kinds - but I could never find anyone that could explain to me where the differences are - one is the plain yellow, the other is the sky one, "cielo". I can't confirm this Peru part of the story, since I never got deep into it. Anyway, these both are one in Brazil, Tucunaca.

When people omit the kind of caapi they're using, I just assume it's this one.

How can you recognize it?

First of all, using other brews as a standard, Tucunaca is the smooth one. It goes easy on the body. It is considered, in association to be a "forgiver", or to "let you get away to pay for your sin later when you are stronger" in a Christian view. Objectively, it won't make you shake your body or lose your breath - it goes easy on the body.

For me, the best brews are with seasoned, old, native Tucunaca - because it is at the same time strong and smooth; the effect is very centered, very guided, very clear. This is a signature of a high quality tucunaca.

The second most common in Brazil is Caupuri, or the one with the big nodes. Some traditions prefer to use this one - it's stronger, very harsh, in a Christian view "You own, you pay now" - it's a "karma burner". An average caupuri brew will take your breath away (like if you're about to give birth to sextuplets), and you will shake your body worse than any parkinson disease sufferer. It takes you to far away places, shows you a lot, but it has its price.

On some traditions they say that God made Caupuri because Tucunaca was too soft with mankind... so go figure.

In the Brazilian traditions the caapi always represent the male, the guiding force, where the chacruna is the female, the shining light.

My experience, though, falls short on other strains - they are way more unusual than people think. I've emailed a friend who lives near Pucallpa, in the Brazil/Peru border, and the shamans there never heard of these other caapi species that are being discussed around (muricata, alicia anisopetala...) even Chaliponga is very rare, people heard of it but nobody uses it for real other than selling it on the internet.

What is common: a great array of snuffs (99% are not dmt based), Sananga (the eyedrops), Kambo, Ayahuasca with Tucunaca and Caupuri, and the Cabocla variety of Chacruna (there are others, but not used a lot as well). There are some main medicinal plants that are also used, and in combination with ayahuasca the most common in Brazil is Joao Brandinho (a Piper sp. plant). Very few shamans use Toe in Brazil, it's very rare, and a con artist is known for selling Toe laced ayahuasca to make people think "his ayahuasca is stronger".

Bem-vindo irmão

It's nice to get someone with good experience with the traditional ways. I've been in some Daime rituals but I dont agree with many things there so I decided to just take these plants either by myself or with the indigenous people.. I had some sessions with some Kaxinawa there too.

I think your experience will come in very handy to increasing our knowledge base on these plants.

One thing, is sananga = Tabernaemontana Sananho? Do you have any more info on that (preparation, etc) ?

The João Brandinho is new to me too, is this only in the UDV?

Can you also expand on the different varieties of chacruna?

By the way, I dont agree with you that caupuri is stronger/harsh, I've had all kinds of experiences with it and I wouldn't call it harsher than any other kind, but that's just me.

Also im not sure if your classification of caapi/ayahuasca matches up with all we've been seing in the analysis and researching so far (as I was talking to snozz on the chat). More in this later.......

Lastly, would you be willing to do a blind ayahuasca test with different varieties to see if you could distinguish them without knowing beforehand?

Be well!

Thanks!

Are you from Brazil or understand portuguese?

The caupuri/tucunaca aspects are pretty much a consensus in both Daime and UDV - You can read more about this on the anthropologist Bia Labate books, but just a few were translated to English. Those are heavy bricks of information! One thing I have to be clear: both are good, and both will bring you great experiences - there's not a a winner or a loser, but they both behave very differently.

Regarding the blind test, that's actually what I did every single time; I never asked before what vine was in the brew, only after to confirm/deny what I felt and saw, to try to keep it "scientific" (hehe that's far from scientific, but there's no protocol for this kind of thing) - Unless when I was crushing the vine myself for a preparation. But it became quite easy; lost breath, legs shaking like crazy, pulses of force like shock discharges you can count on Caupuri.

Another recognizable aspect is a over-Chacrunated brew; it's a different kind of nausea, softer but present all the times, and the visions are often confusing, multiple at the same time, you keep losing the line of thought.

It's been almost 3 years since I had Caupuri for the last time; it's not broadly used outside UDV or some particular Daime rituals, and the brew that I have access (from Cruzeiro do Sul - AC) is always Tucunaca. Sometimes it's a native one from the forest, those are the best. By the way, both Tucunaca and Caupuri are Banisteriopsis caapi, they're varieties but the species is the same.

Regarding the chacruna varieties there is one dominant (Cabocla), let's say, 85% of the brews are with this one, then a smaller variety (Caboclinha); then there are two others, less used, Orelha de Onca (all curvy) and Caiana (more cyan shade of green, whiter). I found a forum post with other varieties here - notice that only 2 names are the same, and the other pictures/names do not match the ones I listed; so, only here we have already 8 varieties of chacrona.

I've seen people describe the different effects of these varieties in the same way I described the difference between the caapis, but I could in now way differentiate one from the other. I had drunk "unstable" ayahuasca (with the effect coming and going) and some people assign this to one kind of chacruna, but I couldn't expand more. I find really hard to differentiate one from another, since the spectrum of effects in a same strain just varies too much according to the person, the situation, the brew. It's crazy to try to pinpoint it at this extent.

Regarding Sananga, yes, it's the Sananho. They extract the juice from the root of the plant, and use it as eye drops, very usual among the Arara tribe in Acre, and among other tribes too (didn't the Kaxinawa used it?). It's hard to describe the effects, I'm going to get a vial soon to study it properly, since I only had it in a "pajelanca" situation where everything was being used together.

Joao Brandinho is very common outside religious groups as well, but its relation with ayahuasca is very present in UDV. Another hard to explain thing, but if you have it with Ayahuasca is like another presence is there, you feel that "something else" is acting in you.

Thanks for the post!

Yeah im a carioca I have a couple of Bia Labate's book, including "O uso ritual da ayahuasca", though I don't recall reading anything about caapi varieties. Care to point me to a more specific direction?

I have brewed some caupuri myself (with the unmistakable nodes) that were from a friend, both that he grew himself, as well as some he brought from his stay near São Gabriel da Cachoeira in the Amazon, and I cannot say that I noticed it being specially "shaky". At the same time, I have had shaky experiences with the non-node variety (which if we clump into the two groups as you do, it would be "tucunaka" ). The thing is, it seems there is way more varieties that are recognized by different indigenous cultures and local curanderos that are beyond these two types. Check the caapi link in my signature as well as the "different ayahuasca vines" thread linked in the first post, we have an ongoing research into this subject right now. For example, the ourinhos variety analysed from a vendor in peru and it had a novel beta carboline that seems was never described yet in ayahuasca literature (if the results are indeed what it seems). I have not consumed from this particular analysed batch, Snozz might give further clue since he did consume, I think. So anyways this wouldnt match the fact that I analysed other non-node varieties and they had a more "normal" content with harmine as major alkaloid and thh as minor alkaloid.

So back to the different types and subjective effects... I feel the same way as you said later regarding the chacruna but also with caapi that there are so many other variables in the experience (set and setting, natural variability of trips themselves, difference in admixtures, etc), that I could not, at least yet, tell the difference between caapis by subjective experience. If I had a more regular use in the same setting once a week or two and kept all varieties the same except changing the caapi source, and then doing the same except changing the admixture, for some years, it might be possible to start being aware of the particular differences. But since I have also "another life" appart from ayahuasca and many things happened the last years including living in different countries, I end up not taking ayahuasca so regularly and in such controlled way. Would be nice to do that sometime though, and thats why im interested in the experience of others who have done so.

I hope you can help us out in deciphering more regarding the ayahuasca vines, it's one of the most important researches we can do now in this community, I think

Regarding T. sananho and the eyedrops, yeah I think the Kaxinawa/Huni Kuin use it but particularly the ones I worked with, were not using that medicine in that moment. They had a lot of snuff, and some essential oils from plants. Do you know how sananga "juice" is extracted from the root? Pressed? Boiled? Is there any further preparation before dropping in the eyes? I have some wood from some european vendor but it's not the root, so Im not sure how useful the results of analysis will be. Will be nice getting some samples from the root to test.

And as for chacruna types, do you have any pictures like in that link, but for Orelha de Onca and Caiana ? Excellent link btw

to make things more complicated, not all tukanaka ayahuasca is the same either. I have some "yellow" vine here that is unlike any other vine I have ever drunk. I have drunk a lot of yellow vine and this particular vine is so strong at only 20g dried, causes much nausea and vomiting, shaking, darker visions and lasts longer than other yellow vines. It is definatly not muricata or alicia, becasue I have them here as well and compared them side by side..I also have some other white tukanaka here as well and it looks just like this yellow I have, yet they are totally different. What you say about tukanaka is consistant with all my experience except when it comes to this one particular vine.

I have been told by another person in peru that yellow and ceilo are the exact same thing and there is no difference between the 2.

I agree that the vine is not just the same as any maoi and has it's own unique characteristic. I find that often the ayahuasca community takes this a bit farther though and claims that ayahuasca is superior to other beta carboline containing plants, which in my own experienca has not been the case. I dont put ayahuasca above others like peganum harmala or jurema. I actually find harmala to be every bit as beautiful and healing as caapi but with it's own character. One main interest I have at this point is finding viable analogue plants that can be grown in temperate regions like where I am.

Jurema is also active on it's own without any vine. The traditional jurema preperation is a cold water extraction, and it has been found to be fully active by itself at 20g. Johnothan ott has published some work on this. Traditionally Jurema is used with a species of passiflora and cane alcohol I think.

Hola sbarret77,


You sound like a good person to have around here on the nexus.

Welcome!

Hello all!

Endlessness: Nice to know you're carioca, we can talk in portuguese in PMs. Are you not living in Brazil?

- I believe It's perfectly possible, as I see it, to use caupuri and not suffer in the body, and drink tucunaca and suffer like there's no tomorrow; as I mentioned before, this universe has simply too many variables, it's extremely hard to pinpoint characteristics or even follow a close-to-scientific protocol. If we discuss the incidence of vomiting, for example, it's insane (for example, in a scenario where same 50 people drink the same ayahuasca 10 times, the patterns of vomiting are very close to random - it's impossible to create statistics. I always paid attention to this kind of thing at UDV)

- Also, regarding the perception of caupuri as the "Body purger" and Tucunaca as the "soft one", I'm not sure where Bia Labate wrote it - she mentioned this briefly when talking about UDV (she's a friend of a friend, and used to go to UDV sessions). Do you have the "Uso ritual" and "Reinvencao da Ayahuasca"? It may be in one of those. But knowing portuguese, it's easier - you can find people talking about this at orkut (Ayahuasca sem Dogmas) or Plantas Enteogenas, and in a couple graduation thesis pdfs online. I'll look into my thesis archive when I'm back home (it's not on this machine) and get back to you with better references.

- I'm also looking forward on trying to decipher more the vine universe. Information is very understudied at this area, and some people that know a lot about this don't go anywhere near the internet. For example, I met an old "master" from UDV that used to drink with a couple of tribes, and he knew about a palm that according to him when brewed with ayahuasca would create a visionary experience that was unbelievable. I got really interested, years later he died and I never found which palm was that, and never found anything about this anywhere online. So, there's much more information out there than online, it's good to have a place like this to gather it.

- Regarding Sananho, as far as I know the roots are cold pressed (to get the juice out of it) and that's it, but I may be wrong, this is not a 100% info. Nobody ever mentioned brewing, specially because it's never an amount big enough for brewing that is prepared.
how are you testing it? If I get may hands on some drops, is a there a way to measure if Ibogaine is really present?

- For the chacruna: I don't have other pics... I'll look around. I want to ask someone if there's an overlap of species since one in the pics has a slight different color and it may be the same as caiana... the caiana I put my hands had a very peculiar shade.


Jamie:

I agree 100%, this is one of the reasons I'm here, I want to explore better the different approaches to this culture around ayahuasca and have a "first hand insight" - people talk all kinds of things, it's hard to find consensus, specially dealing with religious traditions.

Regarding jurema, this is a hot topic. People have been trying to recreate this "active Jurema", but no success so far. there were two lines of thought

1) there's MAOi in Mimosa itself. The problem: is a discussion like "there's 5-meo at chaliponga", some lab testing showed traces of it and people question if it's active or not. In practice, never heard of anyone who could engage the experience without other MAOIs.
2) there's MAOi in the wild passion flora variety that one recipe uses. Problem: I know at least one person that tried the same wild passion flora as a MAOi, and it was a failure. Another problem: it's pretty toxic at MAOi levels, and terrible on the body.

Besides, there are two lines of preparation:
1) the indigenous: Mimosa and fermented honey. Also, I believe I read this preparation used leaves, but I may be wrong. No MAOi or psychoactive effects were found in this one.
2) the African-Brazilian Jurema Wine: this is a long "secret" recipe. The ingredients can be found on the internet, but people that tried it found it was just plain waste of time (it's like mixing everything you have in your kitchen cabinets and drinking it). This is the recipe with passion fruit and sugar cane alcohol.

I had this curiosity, and through orkut I was able to ask a traditional "Catimbozeiro" (the religion is called jurema catimbo) - he confirmed that the trance was not induced by the brew, and had nothing to do with Daime. Also, the amounts drunk in rituals are more symbolic than anything else.

It would be great to discusss this with Ott, a shame he's a totally offline person. And it's awesome to gather info on this topic, if there's any other place here with different information let me know.

Elyahu: Thanks a lot!

Have a great weekend everyone!

I'm a new member here too. It's great to see someone from your background here! I have an extensive background with magic mushrooms and LSD (which doesn't really work for me anymore), but none with ayahuasca (which I hope to resolve soon), and very little with DMT in general.

I have a question for you- I see a lot of talk about entities and whatnot in this forum. Even a classification system for such entities. Have you had a chance to look this over? I'm just curious how it all seems from your background, and what you have been taught about the beings you encounter in this space.

Hello Syd, I love your name and I am glad to know that the legend that is S Barret travels the world.

Welcome sbarret77!

What a lovely and welcomed background. Your perspective and information is very intriguing and I hope to see more from you.

"Regarding jurema, this is a hot topic. People have been trying to recreate this "active Jurema", but no success so far. there were two lines of thought

1) there's MAOi in Mimosa itself. The problem: is a discussion like "there's 5-meo at chaliponga", some lab testing showed traces of it and people question if it's active or not. In practice, never heard of anyone who could engage the experience without other MAOIs.
2) there's MAOi in the wild passion flora variety that one recipe uses. Problem: I know at least one person that tried the same wild passion flora as a MAOi, and it was a failure. Another problem: it's pretty toxic at MAOi levels, and terrible on the body"

Many people here have already used mimosa on it's own as a cold water brew at 20g or more and have found that it is an active psychedelic. This is not really new. There has been work here also by people with lab access who have done work on these other mystery alkaloids that make mimosa active..maybe talk to endlessness about that, and also nen888 I think knows much about all of this..reguardless many people here have confirmed the activity of mimosa alone.

Nen has worked with passiflora at full maoi levels to activate acacia extracts..there are many different species of course but his description never sounded toxic..do you have a source for this claim? The active alkaloids in passiflora are beta carbolines and flavanoids(which are also maoi's)..while there are cyanide compounds in some passiflora leaves they are boiled off when brewed or dried so not actaully present when you drink the stuff..my point was never that passiflora makes the mimosa active anyway, just that the jurema is not only taken alone traditionally.

To complicate things more, there is more than one "jurema"..there is mimosa verrucosa and mimosa hostilis..both are used as "jurema".