tetra said..



No big deal, I do agree it was by far not the best book in the series.
unless your real big into fitness...and I'm not really, as much as I would like to be.


Parshvik Chintan typed..



Yes.... dying saved my life.

A very interesting BBC Castaneda documentary youtube here

My initial impression of Magical Passes (when it came out around 97) was not good....

Learning fake tai-chi from a book with picture of an older woman--at 17 I lacked that patience.

Also, I just highly doubted that these movements could have really been connected with this ancient line of sorcerers, an alleged tradition whose reality/fictitious nature I always kept in ontological limbo anyway.....this Qi-Gong/Gurdgief movements-eque thing just stretched my ability to maintain that sense of "real/unreal" stasis....



I need to give this magical passes/tensegrity thing a second look. This might be some powerful stuff, for all I know. Anyone have any real experience with this stuff? Not CC in general, but the movements from ...Passes specifically.

I have to say after watching that video I think more than before that the guy was just full of bs. I dont think this guy was the real deal at all..I think he was a bunk anthropologist who made up a lot of crap that has proven to not mirror reality at all.

Sure I used to be into castaneda like 9 years ago and thought he was great..later on I went to study anthropology at college(specifically shamanism and magic) and learned more and began to look at his books with less enthusiasm.

If you want to read it like a good story than fine. The books are still valid and useful to read as fiction IMO..and I would reccomend anyone who has not read them to read them and judge for yourself...but to pass them off as real anthropology is pushing it. You will be hard pressed to find a real anthropologist who takes these books as seriously now as they once were.

The guy was seen with a huichol shaman in mexico before so he was there..whos wife claimes that castaneda did not ask many questions and certainly did not learn much about the huichol..and he never was this shamans apprentice..and even if he was the huichol would NOT be calling peyote "mescalito"....the yaqui people themselves think he did more harm than good as they are sick of gringos comming to them to look for peyote and Don Juan.. they do not even use peyote, it does not even grow near them.. Then there is the issue of the little smoke psilocybe thing-which just screams bs. There is so much inconsistancy in his stories and there has been a good case made against him linking numerous things he claimed Don Juan said that other authors wrote in earlier books. There is no reason to believe other than wishing it is true IMO.

Read it as fiction, but dont read too much into it.

Just listen to some of the guys followers..he was a liar and a fake. Other people he inspired to go become real anthropologists who went out and did real field work living with the huichol etc, who idolized him even began to question his work and dismiss it.

He also seems to have been an asshole who treated his family like they were worthless pieces of crap. Just listen to his (first) wifes testimony of what it was like trying to visit him when he was sick..then listen to his sons testimony of the last time he saw him. What a sad pathetic guy he must have been to treat a family who loved him in that way. If people want to look up to a guy like that is their choice..I just dont find his character too appealing at all.

There is far more evidence put forth to support the fact that he was full of it than there is to think he really lived it all. Yes, this is why I say that he is not the real deal and there are others out there who really did live it. You all can believe whatever you want though. I wont post in this thread again.

There are now, of course, YouTube videos showing how to do the passes that are much easier to follow than the book.

Although the issue of it being 'real' or not is a bit trivial by itself, the books probably have contributed in some way to the status, brugmansia/datura plants enjoy in the west, as a shamanic plant. Considering the dangers of tropanes, spreading false information on how to use these plants is highly irresponsible IMO.

Some parts of his books seem less authentic then others. I find most parts of his peyote experience reports for instance, quite a-typical. As if peyote makes you loose all contact with reality and turns you into some madman.

Yes I have tried some of them on LSD with really good results. Especially the memories come from the back of the calfs thing..

As for Castaneda's personal life....I could personally care less if he was a "moral" person or not.

I don't believe in morals but I do believe that the books speak for themselves.

I can usually tell when someone has only read one of the first two books and yet they still try to act like an expert on the matter. There are 11 books total so for some one to only read 1 book and say that Castaneda is completely full of it just sort of silly to me.

If you want to talk about someone that is 100% full of it we can start a thread on L. Ron Hubbard<<<<now that guy, was full of it.




- Wait, I'm pretty sure peyote can indeed do these things.

You would have to take a lot of mescaline to lose all contact with reality IME, certainly not the common mescaline/peyote experience.

As for l ron hubbard, seems cedric has been inspired by him in last mars volta cd, so at least something good came out of it

did you read all of L ron's books?
then by your own logic discounting scientology based on cursory knowledge is "sort of silly"

I read some of Castanedas other books as well, but they were not on the level of his other books in my opinion and I never really enjoyed them in the same way as I did the first 2 and so I gave them away and only kept book 1 and 2 for my collection.

Guess you cant really tell when people have only read 1 or 2 books then?

People can like whatever they want..go for it. The books do not speak for themselves in my opinion. What does that even mean? Sorry I spent time studying real anthropolgy and I just dont concider these books to be any more than fictional storytelling. Sure they might inspre some people, as do many works of fiction. Calling them works of anthropology though is rediculous.

I know I said I would not post again here, so this is it I promise

Reality seems like a fluid substance......

I never considered CC's works to be anthropology. I thought that much was obvious? Obvious enough that to argue against the anthropological and scientific validity of his body of work is utterly ridiculous. I mean, seriously?

Most works on serious anthropology do not include encounters in-which a person physically flies up into the air, superman style. This happened in numerous occasions throughout CC's books, in multiple anecdotes when psychoactive plants were not even involved.

The utility of the books however is something many can attest to. The books offer many techniques which can be expansive of mind, can help one to break out of rigidity of though and mental habit and what-not....But never mind that for now.


Mescalito. Well, the Nagual Juan Matus called his smoking mixture "little smoke". Adding "ito" to the end of a name is a diminuitive or boyish suffix, for example--grown Carlos is called Carlos, boy Carlos is called Carlito. As such, the term Mescalito is an example of Jaun Matus being consistent. Have you never reffered to your plants as "my little girls" or attended your entheogenic garden and addressed your crops as "how are you today, little one?" That kind of thing. Jaun Matus was sophisticated in the ways of the world, for an Indian....he astounded Carlos in book four (I think) by showing up in a suit and behaving like an elegante (I think that's Mexican for gentleman)....possibly Jaun Matus was aware of the active constituent in Peyote being Mescaline, thus he came up with the nickname mescalito--possibly he only used the nickname in the company of Carlos--knowing that Carlos was a university grad, he made up the nickname for his benefit.

this last paragraph, I believe demonstrates that arguing the validity/reality of a fictional work can get tedious. But if this is what people want to play, I'm down.

The link shared on page one by jamie (who allegedly is done with this thread?) about the origin of the term mescaline is entirely theoretical. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and there is even an entry which discredits the theory.


Books one and two and three were kind of boring and offered little by way of pragmatic instruction. Things got fun with Tales of Power, Eagles Gift and the Art of Dreaming, IMHO, though the first three had a few strong points.,


The Ancient One, Crossing the Wall of Fog, performing the fire from within, the Leap to Infinity, A horde of Angry Sorcerers. Classic stuff.

***********


Other than the "reality" of CC's works...which I don't think anyone here has argued for, only against....is only one of the fun tangential bits about CC. The other is his personal life! Well, very little has ever been known about his personal life. He lied. He lied about his country of origin, he lied about his age and he was rarely ever interviewed, avoided having his voice recorded or his photo taken. This seems consistent with the art of Stalking. Anyone who's read the books should know what I mean.




Fine, I'll stop for now. Really, I haven't read his books in so many years and I do not consider myself a student (though I did a decade and a half ago) I only chime in because I hate to see his work obscured by these shenanigans. Really, these shenanigans and antics are part of the fun. His work lived by the shenanigan and it just may die by the shenanigan. Well, the work isn't dying anytime soon, but the lies and controversy are definately obscuring the heck out of what is valid within this body of work.

When I was younger I attempted to read Dianetics...

I found it to be completely unreadable and could not finish it. In my opinion it became apparent within a few pages that Hubbard is just some bloated egomaniac.

I am going to have to agree with the creators of south park as well as the band Tool(eulogy) when it comes to Ron. Just watch ANY interview with him.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI

I saw Mars Volta open for System of A Down a some years back, I know lots of people love them but I didn't much care for it....I thought they were trying too hard to sound like Led Zeppelin personally..of course that was just my opinion of them live, maybe their studio stuff is better.

Jamie-
I just deduced that you had read only 1 book because in the first installment of the series he mentions P. Mexicana specifically.

No hard feelings though, it's all in the spirit of debate and what not.....
I do believe you when you say you have read more than 1 book..

Also I have read enough of your posts to know that you are well informed on the subject of anthropology so you are certainly entitled to make an educated judgment on the books.

Myself, I have not been formally educated beyond the point of the 9th grade. Therefore when someone who HAS been formally educated in anthropology gives their opinion, I do indeed value it.

I have had nothing to teach me of shamanism besides these phony Castaneda stories, ancient religious doctrines and of course DMT so any "outside" input is always viewed by me as insightful.

..there already was a Castaneda debate on the Nexus..https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/d....aspx?g=posts&t=5207..so divert here for other arguments..

to state my position clearly, i think the works are 80% creative fiction, but based on some kind of actual experience..(see my post#31 in thread link)..haven't read the books for 20 years..i find some of his ideas very interesting, but don't actually practice them (except re-capitulation, one of his best concepts)..i don't think he should be outright rejected without fully studying the whole debate..though his creepy personal life after the mid-70s is a little offputting (the 'witches' keeping his son/family away etc.) ..there's links in above thread link..
it is known for certain that he at least met Maria Sabina in the 60s..

That´s also the way i tend to see it. There are some observations that strike me as genuine and true. But there´s a lot of weird and inconsistant stuff as well, pointed out by some other posters here.

I have not read any of Castaneda's book, (some passages, but no while books) but I did watch a number of documentaries including the BBC one. He strikes me as a guy that, earlier in life, may have been onto something of striking depth, but who, in later life, kind of lost track of the path in a major way.

That's just my impression, and in all fairness, It seems impossible to write off EVERYTHING he put forth, but his seeming lack of honesty during parts of his life makes it somewhat more difficult to sort out.

If Castaneda was a sorcerer as his books describe, then he would have been a trickster, using strategy and subterfuge, perhaps to give his readers knowledge in a form that would be most effectively utilized by those who are ready to hear. If you are familiar with the books, you may remember that Don Juan and the other sorcerers were masters of perception, and great actors as well. They could literally make you see whatever they wanted you to see. Maybe CC didn't want this knowledge to become a religion, maybe he didn't want to be idolized so he created an illusion- a morally defunct, egotistical version of himself to present to the world during his later years...

Whatever the case, maybe it would be wise to pay more attention to the message than the messenger? Wisdom can come in many forms, some less apparent than others.

It seems to me that those who speak negatively about Castaneda simply don't fully understand how the techniques and teachings in the books come together into a coherent strategy for expanded perception and personal transformation. By systematically deconstructing the ego, reducing self-importance, redirecting/saving/increasing energy, performing "Not Doings" to break down the flow of ordinary perception of reality, and then adopting the "Warrior" mentality to effectively utilize these new perceptions while developing the sobriety and control necessary to deal with them without going insane!

It really is brilliant, and from my experience, it works.

As I stated in the linked thread, Castaneda's techniques of "Finding the hands" in lucid dreaming, Not-Doings, Saving energy, Stalking the Self, Recapitulation, Using Death As An Adviser, Erasing Personal History, and Losing Self-Importance, have all been very effective in helping me integrate and utilize much of my entheogenic experience and even helped me become sufficiently detached from my ego to help me with my addictions.

For anyone interested in practical application of the techniques in the books, I highly recommend the book The Teachings of Don Carlos, by Victor Sanchez. Good stuff.

Folks ! have you never heard of Tata Cachora ?
On Youtube there are some videos as well.
The first to claim this shaman is Don Juan was Bert Hellinger,
the developer of Familiy ( or Systemic) Constellations; so not the last stupid but a really great man exposed himself with this almost incredible claim.
Tata Cachora is now about 95 old, has 45 sons, lives in Baja California and travel all around Mexico to teach and see his disciples.
Tata says 'Carlitos' wrote only the first three books accordingly to his teachings, then he closed any relationship with Castaneda because he was too much an asshole, who kept writing his narratives without Tata\Don Juan support.

..one interesting accusation against Castaneda is that he partly ripped-off the anthropological thesis of his fellow UCLA student Peter T. Furst (before Furst had submitted it)
..the descriptions of sorcerers floating in the air, appearing and disappearing, are apparently genuine visionary experiences of Furst's with the huichol..he doesn't talk about it much..
Furst wrote, amongst other books, "Flesh of the Gods", "Halluncinogens and Culture" & 'Visions of a Huichol Shaman"
http://www.amazon.com/Peter-T.-Furst/e/B001JS5WIW..

I don't really mind whether or not he is a cult leader.
Or whether or not the character don Juan is fictional.
All I care about are the messages within his novels that
allow me to remember to live my life impeccably and to not
take things so seriously sometimes, as well as take things for granted.

"The countless paths one traverses in one's life are all equal. Oppressors and oppressed meet at the end, and the only thing that prevails is that life was altogether too short for both."-- don Juan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJwwRRagHu4

I enjoyed his books, though it's been quite a few years since I've read any of them.

Here's an interesting quote from Michael Harner, it's in the book 'Higher Wisdom: Eminent Elders Explore the Continuing Impact of Psychedelics' -

"One of Carlos' most important contributions was introducing the
terms "ordinary/nonordinary" reality, which remain immensely useful.
The American anthropologist Robert Lowie had earlier used "ordinary
and extraordinary," but nothing quite works like "ordinary/nonordinary."
Unfortunately, in later books Carlos didn't really distinguish adequately
between those anymore. The first two books were closer to shamanism
and to what I consider to have been experiences with a psychedelic base.
Later, Carlos shifted more into his own world. His later books have very
little to do with shamanism and a lot to do with Carlos' own world, such
as his construct of Toltec shamanism - nobody knows who the Toltecs
really were. It's simply an archaeological concept.

Many today believe that most of what Castaneda wrote was a sham. Do
you think that don juan, his mentor shaman, was a real person?

I think don Juan was real. However, I think some aspects of him
described by Carlos were composites, and other aspects, described in the
later books, were "dreamed" by Carlos. Early on, Carlos invited me to go
visit don Juan. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to travel with him down
to Mexico, and I've kicked myself ever since. But don Juan and I were in
contact through Carlos. Carlos wanted to get that book published. When
he mentioned this, don Juan said that he didn't really know if it was
important, but if Carlos really wanted it, he'd help. So he had three power
masks made. One was for Carlos' literary agent, one was for Carlos, and
one was for me."