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The Acacia Confusa thread Options
 
nen888
#1 Posted : 5/12/2012 8:14:32 AM
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..i've noticed an increasing number of questions about using Acacia confusa..as both seed and bark are easily commercially obtainable, i thought it would be good to pool all the Nexus information together, for reference..
as jamie and others are growing it, updates on cultivation would be great..

BOTANICAL & CHEMICAL INFO:
..pooling some stuff from Trying to improve Acacia info.
Acacia confusa ( 海药周到的树, 台湾相思 ) is traditionally associated with Confucius and Taoism, and is known in China as 'The Thoughful Tree", hai hung tou (the red bean from the sea) and hai yuk (sea medicine)..it is used widely in Chinese medicine..
it's now considered originally native to the northern Phillipines Islands, but had spread to Taiwan, China, and other parts of S.E. Asia in the past few millenium, or so..it was considered synonymous with Acacia richii (common in Fiji and other Pacific Islands), but this may be considered a subspecies now..A. confusa is also naturalized in Hawaii, where it is known as Formosakoa..it has bright yellow/golden globose (ball shaped) racemes (flowers) and phyllodes (leaves) 5-9cm x 8mm-1.5cm (approx); see photo below for pods..
from p11 of the acacia thread:
Quote:
Liu et al. 1977 fround 2.85% alkaloid in the root bark (45% DMT, 55% NMT) making this the highest DMT content in any acacia* so far, though i should also mention that damaging roots can be harmful to the tree;
..leaves have yielded smaller amounts alkaloid, incl. DMT-N-oxide [Arthur et al. 1967; Lou et al. 1965; Buchannan et al. 2007]. Leaves also yielded flavonoid variations of myricetin [Lee, T.H. et al 2000]..it has been used in successful bio-assay with MAOIs a number of times [dmt-nexus]..[*=acuminata may be higher]..
..the stem/branch bark contains 1.0-1.2% alkaloids..
testing by endlessness for the nexus found A. confusa DMT/NMT and 2-Methyl-Tetrahydro-Beta-Carboline (2MTHBC) (see Acacia Analysis Thread)

many vendors sell stem bark (which is a perfectly good %) as this is a lot more sustainable
..i have not heard of Lui et al.'s high rootbark % being replicated..it was a single test..
the phyllode (leaf) content needs more research as this is the most sustainable part to harvest..unless it is unlike most other acacias, it'd predict it to have 0.3-0.4% alkaloid or more..almost no data, except a single test showing a small amount (which may not have been maximising yield)
..the flavonoids in the leaf (which are probably in bark) have some MAOI potential..the NMT level appears to vary..

here i have linked a number of Nexus threads relating to the

USE or EXTRACTION of confusa..

Acacia confusa & Formosahusca..which i have quoted the OP next post..

Acacia confusa, some notes and thoughts

Acacia confusa problems

Confusa Exraction

DMT from Acacia Confusa vs Mimosa Hostilis


..anybody please feel free to add others..has anyone got photos of younglings or grown trees..?
.
.
nen888 attached the following image(s):
Acacia_confusa 1.jpg (141kb) downloaded 3,378 time(s).
_acacia_confusa 2.jpg (344kb) downloaded 3,397 time(s).
acacia confusa pods.jpg (401kb) downloaded 3,400 time(s).
 

Psychedelic news, articles, interviews and art from the DMT-Nexus and other sources.
 
nen888
#2 Posted : 5/12/2012 8:21:19 AM
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..here's the very interesting OP from the Acacia confusa & Formosahuasca thread linked above:
Quote:
mindbody wrote:
(slightly edited)

SUMMARY

Acacia confusa is a tree native to South-East Asia and containing large amounts of psychoactive tryptamines in its root bark. Reports of human bioassays are very scarce, but there is a group in Taiwan conducting ayahuasca sessions using this plant. I have followed their steps brewing Acacia confusa-based ayahuasca (Formosahuasca), and also discovering to my surprise that the root bark is orally active by itself in larger doses, without any additional sources of MAOI.

Bioassays (more details below):

5tbsp ground acacia root bark brewed ayahuasca-style without any additives: an overwhelmingly strong short (around 30 minutes) trip reminiscent of descriptions of smoked DMT - EROWID REPORT.

3tbsp ground acacia root bark infusion without any additives: soft psychedelic trance with rich mental imagery.

1.5tbsp ground acacia root bark & 1/2tbsp Syrian rue seeds infusion: a full-blown and rather overwhelming ayahuasca trip - EROWID REPORT.

<1tbsp ground acacia root bark & <1/2tbsp Syrian rue seeds infusion: a softer ayahuasca trip, with a more intense episode later on triggered by eating a light meal.


========================

Notes on obtaining the plant material:

1) The tree appears to be very common in Taiwan (its local name is 相思樹, which amusingly translates as `thinking-of-each-other tree'Pleased.

2) The root bark (相思樹根皮) seems to have some very limited use in traditional medicine, externally and perhaps internally for liver disease (the vendors did not seem confident about that).

3) The bark does not seem to be carried by Chinese medicine stores (中藥店), but it is carried by "herbal medicine stores" (草藥店 or 青草店), though not every store would have it, since the demand is low.

4) There is a huge conglomeration of these herbal shops next to Longshan temple (龍山寺) in Taipei. I didn't have a difficulty buying the bark there, but I had to order 1 day in advance, and they gave me raw root (at 150 Taiwan dollars, roughly $5, for 600g). The bark can be easily separated from the fresh root.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


ARCHIVE


03.05.2010: Acacia confusa root bark orally active without MAOI:

Just posting a very quick note on my bioassay of this Taiwanese acacia.

There are reports of DMT content in the root bark comparable or higher than Mimosa, and I've stumbled on this online description of using it in ayahuasca. So, on my recent trip to Taiwan, I obtained a large sample of the root bark. I must mention before describing my trial that I've never succeeded attaining full psychedelia with mimosa-caapi ayahuasca (made from ingredients purchased in Europe), so what I am about to describe is my first full-scale DMT(-like) experience.

Anyway, because the plant has not been researched much, I wanted to test my material without MAOI first to watch for any non-DMT-related adverse effects, without any expectations for psychoactivity. So I brewed a handful of my root bark chips (ground to around 5tbsp of fibrous powder) ayahuasca-style without any additives.

I first consumed about 1/3 of the brew on an empty stomach this morning. There was some nausea, so I lied down. In about an hour, I noticed to my surprise that colors brightened, everything started to look cuter, mild euphoria emerged and the nausea was gone: a typical low-dose tryptamine signature. So, because it felt pretty comfortable, I decided to take the risk and drink the rest of the brew. About 20 minutes later, it hit me like a wall, and it was pretty horrifying (with synesthesia going beyond what words can describe, visions, perceptual distortions of all sorts, thoughts that I have killed myself, limb tremor and impaired motor control). However, the whole thing lasted about 40 minutes and then stopped quite abruptly (and I am actually feeling perfectly well now). This was my first DMT experience (which I believe it has been, because the duration and intensity do match the DMT profile), and it was certainly far less kind to me than psilocybin. In any case, with due care, the plant can probably be used to people's benefit, and it is certainly active orally without additives (at least for my body chemistry; related Mimosa hostilis is also reported to be orally active).

I intend to write a more detailed report for erowid later. And I'll probably do some more experiments, though dosing more conservatively (and I am somewhat scared now of combining it with rue...).

Any comments/advice from ayahuasca shamans and other competent individuals are appreciated! Rolling eyes

_________________________________________


11.05.2010: Direct oral activity of the root bark confirmed with a smaller dose.

_________________________________________


16.05.2010: An acacia-based ayahuasca trial completed. (I call it FORMOSAHUASCA, after Formosa acacia, one of the names for the tree). Has been a deep experience, but extremely horrifying during the prolonged entry stage.

The brew:

1) around 1/2 tbsp whole Syrian rue seeds, ground into powder and steeped in 3 washes of boiling water (no cooking, no evaporation);

2) around 3 tbsp ground Acacia confusa root bark, also steeped in 3 washes of boiling water (no cooking, no evaporation); ONLY around 1/2 of the acacia brew was consumed (around 1.5 tbsp of the plant material), resulting in an extremely strong experience.

The rue was consumed first, followed 30 minutes later by around 1/3 of the acacia brew, followed 30 more minutes later by a few more gulps of the acacia brew (overall, around 1/2 of the prepared acacia brew was used).

What ensued was a prolonged horrifying entry phase, which felt like dying many times over, not being sure anymore what being alive, sane or human means, or when this experience started, or when it is going to end. After a lot of suffering, and passing through an exquisitely sensuous erotic episode, this cleared into an extremely blissful state of peace and harmony, which gradually descended into the usual consciousness at around 3.5 hour time mark from the first acacia brew ingestion.

A deep experience I would say, but certainly not one I would repeat often. And all of this with only around 1.5 tbsp of the acacia root bark powder. No idea whether my batch of acacia is unusually potent, or I am unusually sensitive. Also, it's quite harsh on me. As I said, I've never really had a difficult experience with psilocybin, mescaline or LSA (all from natural sources), but these acacia voyages bring a lot of horror, among other things. Please stay safe!

_________________________________________


19.05.2010: Some comments I've received from exactlydivyn, a leader of this group conducting ayahuasca sessions in Taiwan using Acacia confusa:
Quote:
I've done well over 100 sessions with myself and others with this [Acacia confusa and Syrian rue] brew. I introduced it to Taiwan after my friend telling me about it while I was living on Orchid Island. We found a tree, scraped off some of the root bark, boiled it for a couple of hours with some Syrian Rue and a few kiwis. That's how it began. The second time I took it, I was told to move to Tainan on the west coast of Taiwan and start using it as therapy to help people change their lives.

Here are the questions you asked me:

> How many people have you administered it to?
> Has anyone experienced adverse physical or psychological effects?

I've administered it to about 70 to 80 people. Most do it once or twice. Some seem to have the calling, destiny or something, as I did. Really catch onto it. Some are very afraid of it. I'm still afraid of it after 30~40 sessions, but the benefit, the change and growth that occurs with continuous use pushes me beyond my fear. I've had 1 person that I would consider adverse psychological effect at the time, although long term effect seems to be very beneficial. Absolutely NO physical adverse effect, short term or long term (although I did experience hypertensive crisis and had to be rushed to the hospital. I took 15 LSA seeds at night after doing aya in the morning. Didn't know it was on the restricted MAOI list).

> R. seemed to imply that he was using stem bark and not root bark,
> though he wasn't sure. Could you comment on that?

I've taken rootbark from live trees, and the bark from the herb shops, which I used most of the time. I've asked the shop if it was rootbark and she said it was, although sometimes it looks as if it is treebark. I'll ask again next time I buy. I've had no experience with death on the live bark (only three experiences though), but I've had much deeper experiences with the herb shop bark (done it lots more?? Don't know yet).


_________________________________________


...
_________________________________________


05.06.2010: One more bioassay: this time less than 1tbsp of ground Acacia confusa root bark and less than 1/2tbsp of Syrian rue seeds. The simplest preparation possible: the rue seeds ground and combined with the bark, steeped in 3 washes of boiling water, filtered, the residual plant material discarded. The liquid slowly consumed over the course of an hour, resulting in a distinctive two-part trip.

For the first 1.5 hours, a relatively soft trance with all the senses heightened, in particular, strong inner visualizations of muscular postures, combined with spontaneous investigative body movements (trying to feel my body better). Very refreshing.

Then I felt pretty much back to baseline and somewhat hungry. So I ate a bowl of fava bean soup. This resulted in a sharp surge of intoxication, and for the subsequent half-hour, I was propelled into the psychedelic realm familiar from my previous higher-dose acacia trips. This time, it was much more under control, since the dose was smaller and I was more familiar with the effects. In particular, I could maintain my identity throughout and could ground myself firmly for a few seconds every now and then, before returning to the visionary realm. Still, some aspects of the acacia-induced trance are quite overwhelming, even in smaller doses: there was a feeling of being controlled, or connected to something larger than "myself", a sense of myriads of tentacles probing my shoulders, etc. Bright hyper-kinetic "high-tech" colorful geometric visions (equalizer bands and the likes). There was a feeling of strong alertness after returning to the ordinary consciousness. I then took a walk in a park, cooling off.

There have been anecdotal reports that a light meal in the course of ayahuasca trips can provoke a surge in trip intensity. My experience seems to conform with this observation.

_________________________________________


28.09.2010: Acacia confusa seeds available to share. PM me if interested.

_________________________________________


 
nen888
#3 Posted : 5/12/2012 11:08:44 PM
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..regarding the sometimes reported 'small percentage' finding of alkaloids in A. confusa leaf
from Nb-METHYLATED TRYPTAMINES AND OTHER CONSTITUENTS OF ACACIA CONFUSA MERR. OF HONG KONG by H. R. Arthur, S. N. Loo, and J. A. Lamberton 1967 who found NMT/DMT 4:1 in stems (as well as the triterpene alcohols lupeol and taraxerol, and the steroid stigmasterol)
Quote:
Air-dried leaves ( 8.7 kg) were milled and extracted at room temperature with light petroleum
and ethanol successively.
..they worked at pH 8..this would almost certainly not efficiently extract maximum possible yield from the material..they managed to just get a little alkaloid from bark.. several ethanol or napatha pulls at room temperature over a day would not fully extract any acacia i've dealt with..only heat, much longer infusion or acidification will do this..
..it is unfortunate such tests are often cited like conclusive results of plant content..a character known to this site says in another website thread 2011:
Quote:
I did a little bio-assay of the phyllodes and I can confirm they are also active, and seem to contain some mysterious magic.I need to do some proper tests, but yeah, the phyllodes seem like the way to go, and STRONG too!
[http://www.shaman-australis.com...ndex.php?showtopic=27439]

..Lou et al. 1965 tested the bark, got a very low %, and believed tannins were preventing them from extracting all the alkaloid..i think they should have experimented more with fine adjustment of the pH..they were just at 9..in experience it's the Tars not tannins which occasionally cause this problem, which can be solved with slight pH change..they found traces of indole alkaloids in leaves by Dragendorff’s agent reaction..
Buchanan et al. 2007 i believe got alkaloids from leaves, i'm still to access the full paper..

so, confusa phyllode research an open area...as phyllodes are actually an extension of the bark (or petioles), it makes little sense for one to contain alkaloids but not the other..
 
jamie
#4 Posted : 5/12/2012 11:42:26 PM

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Thanks for this thread nen..I have some germinating right now so when they are ready to pot I will take some pics and update this thread as they are growing..
 
jamie
#5 Posted : 5/13/2012 5:34:02 AM

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this is also interesting that DMT has been found is the leaves..good to know that leaves can maybe be harvested for use as I grow the trees.
 
evil804
#6 Posted : 5/13/2012 2:32:07 PM

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nen888
#7 Posted : 5/14/2012 4:35:18 AM
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..thanks evil804 and jamie,

regarding A. confusa' s growing requirements, while some australian acacias can tolerate temperatures down to minus 8-10 degrees C, A. confusa (being more equatorial in origin) can only handle down to about +3 degrees C..
so in colder climates it would require a hothouse or indoor growing..

ps. hope i got the Chinese characters for Acacaia confusa right, and didn't in fact write 'love you long time' or something..Smile
 
nen888
#8 Posted : 5/16/2012 10:32:57 AM
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..so Acacia confusa in China is called 台湾相思 tai wan xiang si - 'Taiwan Acacia'..the word for Acacia is 'xiang si', though curiously the last two characters together in isolation mean 'lovesickness'..(?) ..the other set of characters in post1 mean 'sea medicine thoughtful tree' the Taiwanese names..

..it's used traditionally in Taiwan "..for strength, anti-inflammation,
etc... The Thoughtful Tree is often used in Chinese Medicine for muscle constricting agent and for curing blood disease." [Lui et al. 1977]


below is Formosa Koa (Acacia confusa) growing in Maui, Hawaii..
.

nen888 attached the following image(s):
Formosa koa - Maui.jpg (4,964kb) downloaded 3,331 time(s).
 
jamie
#9 Posted : 5/17/2012 3:58:51 AM

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the first one of 3 confusa seeds I started the other day is germinating now and putting out the start of the tap root..I think I can get these guys to germinate well now. I will take some pics and write up some stuff tonight or tommorow.
 
jamie
#10 Posted : 5/20/2012 1:37:28 AM

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Here is a picture of one of my confusa seeds just after it germinated a few days ago..
jamie attached the following image(s):
DSC04875.JPG (1,751kb) downloaded 3,256 time(s).
 
jamie
#11 Posted : 5/20/2012 1:44:18 AM

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That seed is now planted in a small clay pot with only sand for now..I nicked the seeds and soaked them, then planted in peat pellets prior to this and they all got mold..

This is what I do now and so far I have not had any mold issues..

I nick the seeds and then soak them for one day in spring water..then once they swell I get a plastic container of some kind with a lid and sterilize the inside with essential oils dissolved in water so it is all clean..I wash the seeds. Then I take clean paper towel and fold it up a few times to make it thicker and blanket the seeds in it and soak the thing to keep the seeds moist..stick that in the container and close the lid.

I just stuck it on a window cill like that and washed the seeds once a day, as well as resterilize the container and put the seeds in new paper towel..Maybe that is a bit much but so far it has eliminated any mold or rot issues..

The seeds will be potted in only sand until they seem rigerous enough to go into a real potting mix so that mold and rot is kept to a minimum.

I will add some more pictures as this plant grows.
 
nen888
#12 Posted : 5/31/2012 3:05:36 AM
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..cool jamie..how's the little 'thoughtful' babies coming along..?Smile are the roots an inch or so yet?
look forward to following their progress..

btw, here's the paper on anti-oxidant and other activity of Flavonoids in A. confusa leaf:
Antioxidant Activities and Xanthine Oxidase Inhibitory Effects of Phenolic Phytochemicals from Acacia confusa Twigs and Branches by Ching-Yu Hsieh & Shang-Tzen Chang
.
 
endlessness
#13 Posted : 6/9/2012 12:12:56 AM

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I posted this in the Acacia Analysis thread but I wanted to comment on it here:




So as you see, there are some small amount of betacarbolines, the same that seem to appear in mimosa/jungle. Dozuki suggested in the jungle spice analysis thread that what we first thought was 1,2-DMTHBC, was a yuremamine degradation product, and proposed a different structure for it (check image attached to this post and the following one). It seems to be more polar molecule than 2MTHBC because in mimosa extractions it only appears in crude evapped jungle or FASW, not in dry FASI and neither in naphtha pulls.

So im wondering... Isn't there some talk that Acacia confusa is orally active by itself ? Is it possible it also has yuremamine, and hence what we're seeing? or both do have 1,2-DMTHBC and it's not related to yuremamine? But then what would explain confusa's oral activity. Anyways it seems interesting that Acacia's biochemistry often seems very similar to Mimosa, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was some similar thing going on.


Another thing I wanted to comment on is this artraric acid that appeared on the methanol soak of confusa stems. It seems it might have some medical applications: http://www.sciencedirect...e/pii/S0303720710004740

Also funny enough, it's also present in lichens, some of the ones there was some talk about:
http://analusis.edpscien...03/s070399/s070399.html

Im not sure of it's toxicity though, do you, nen? Anyways I thought it was interesting to mention. Over time Ill keep trying to identify other small peaks. The interesting thing with analysis is that the more analysis done, the more you are familiar with different spectra that may appear in related plants Smile
 
nen888
#14 Posted : 6/9/2012 2:06:36 AM
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..the lichen acid is very interesting endlessness, [psychoactive lichen thread]
from memory, it's not particularly toxic, like you say has therapeutic actions..nothing to worry about..

what interests me with this test is that it's a methanol soak, meaning some of these compounds would not be in an A/B extract..i'm curious as to whether different solvents would pull differing amounts of NMT in extraction..(be good to do methanol tests of other acacias btw)..so, in above example, does confusa root contain more NMT than DMT?(as it appears)
you wrote:
Quote:
So im wondering... Isn't there some talk that Acacia confusa is orally active by itself ? Is it possible it also has yuremamine, and hence what we're seeing? or both do have 1,2-DMTHBC and it's not related to yuremamine? But then what would explain confusa's oral activity. Anyways it seems interesting that Acacia's biochemistry often seems very similar to Mimosa, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was some similar thing going on.
..i've pondered a lot whether there are yuremamine-like 'hypermolecules' in autralian Acacias (due to the interesting traces in some extracts) [see Complex Indole Alkaloids ('Hyper-tryptamines'Pleased ]..one of my current theories for orally active acacias with only small amounts of ß-carbolines is Flavonoids, but maybe a water soak is needed to test for these..i'll study the paper i posted earlier with the flavonoids found in A. confusa leaf..they are related to known MAOI flavonoids..
or else 2MTHBC is unusually potent (which has been suggested to explain Phalaris cow staggers)..

but, the occurance of yuremamine or similar compounds in acacias is a good question and an exciting research prospect..Smile
 
mindbody
#15 Posted : 7/21/2012 7:39:48 AM

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nen888 wrote:
..so Acacia confusa in China is called 台湾相思 tai wan xiang si - 'Taiwan Acacia'..the word for Acacia is 'xiang si', though curiously the last two characters together in isolation mean 'lovesickness'...


"Xiang si" does not mean "acacia", it is only used for this particular tree. The fact that there are a few different ways to write it in Chinese, which have identical pronunciation but completely unrelated meaning of the characters, strongly point to the name being a loanword, most likely from aboriginal languages. (Taiwanese aborigines speak languages related to Malay and Indonesian, but completely unrelated to Chinese.)

Thanks for all the good work!
 
nen888
#16 Posted : 8/3/2012 12:16:48 PM
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..Smile and thank you for all your good work mindbody..!
 
stoneyone
#17 Posted : 8/14/2012 9:21:19 AM

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confusa trees of different sizes on my property.
stoneyone attached the following image(s):
IMG_0327.JPG (2,837kb) downloaded 3,084 time(s).
IMG_0330.JPG (2,538kb) downloaded 3,079 time(s).
IMG_0329.JPG (2,563kb) downloaded 3,078 time(s).
 
nen888
#18 Posted : 8/20/2012 12:51:59 PM
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..nice pics thanks stoneyone..Smilelook forward to hearing of your adventures with formosakoa..
.

EDIT: a recent A. confusa extraction in A. Confusa Extraction..Smile
 
phyllode
#19 Posted : 11/8/2012 5:27:36 AM

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Bump! Due to lots of questions. Been studying the Nexus for a while, so I will try and chip in. And to thank all posts above.

Packet of 10 A. confusa seeds in the USA = $2.50.

Someone's been growing a lot in China in the last few years. Photo below from Sichuan, China, 2007.
phyllode attached the following image(s):
台湾相思樹.jpg (247kb) downloaded 2,734 time(s).
 
The Meddling Monk
#20 Posted : 11/25/2012 2:06:23 AM

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Last visit: 04-Oct-2014
Location: Hyperborea
Bump for new members. Over 500 in the past month! Nice little thread this. I'd like to know more about the 'aboriginal Taiwanese'. Very interesting. Thank you nen, jamie, mindbody, endlessness and everyone else!
 
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