Jamie is right, with the caveat that amino acids are the building blocks of protein thereby making protein necessary more often than not as the source of amino acids.

With careful planning of ones diet a vegan can get all the nutrients homo sapiens needs.This would require particular attention to ensuring one gets sufficient vitamin B12 which for the vegan may mean specifically seeking out preps such as fortified cereals to get the B12 in sufficient quantities.A committed vegan will invariably be one who checks the labels on food items very closely.

just some food for thought over at MDA.

While my personal dietary choices are different than OP's, I'm glad to see that people are taking health into their own hands.

If you must not eat any meat one could go the diet path of nuts/cashews and *Quinoa*

with a couple cups of quinoa and a breast of chicken, the both of best worlds, youd be looking at 400cal with easily 60g protein in a small meal...pretty awesome

I own a vegetarian restaurant that is right across a goodlife where we feed a lot of vegan bodybuilders and they are just as fit and strong as any other. However, id never be able to adopt a vegan lifestyle, meat is just so...tasty and good for you. [with moderation, naturally] than again ive never been all that worried about tap water and the occasional junk food and i still feel great.

This only issue remaining in my mind in regards to meat is that of B12. B12 must be supplemented unless meat is consumed.

There are no plant based foods that are sources of b12....

....Unless of course you want to get into the debate in regards to spirulina. Spirulina DOES provide small amounts of B12 but the issue is not whether or not B12 is provided but rather if spirulina is a plant or an animal.

Spirulina is a prokaryotic cyanobacteria and

according to wiki:

Algae (/ˈældʒiː/ or /ˈælɡiː/; singular alga /ˈælɡə/, Latin for "seaweed" ) are a large and diverse group of simple, typically autotrophic organisms, ranging from unicellular to multicellular forms, such as the giant kelps that grow to 65 meters in length. They are photosynthetic like plants, and "simple" because their tissues are not organized into the many distinct organs found in land plants. The largest and most complex marine forms are called seaweeds.

Though the prokaryotic cyanobacteria (commonly referred to as blue-green algae) were traditionally included as "algae" in older textbooks, many modern sources regard this as outdated[3] as they are now considered to be bacteria.[4] The term algae is now restricted to eukaryotic organisms.[5] All true algae therefore have a nucleus enclosed within a membrane and plastids bound in one or more membranes.[3][6] Algae constitute a paraphyletic and polyphyletic group,[3] as they do not include all the descendants of the last universal ancestor nor do they all descend from a common algal ancestor, although their plastids seem to have a single origin.[1] Diatoms are also examples of algae.

Bacteria is not a plant.







Does anyone know of any plant based sources of B12?

FWIW I also just found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/...%28dietary_supplement%29


"Spirulina is not considered to be a reliable source of Vitamin B12. Spirulina supplements contain predominantly pseudovitamin B12, which is biologically inactive in humans.[9] Companies which grow and market spirulina have claimed it to be a significant source of B12 on the basis of alternative, unpublished assays, although their claims are not accepted by independent scientific organizations. The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada in their position paper on vegetarian diets state that spirulina cannot be counted on as a reliable source of active vitamin B12.[10] The medical literature similarly advises that spirulina is unsuitable as a source of B12.[9][11]"

b12 has been found in a number of plant based cultured foods, it is present in all wild water(spring water, lake water etc) and if you eat vegetable right out of the ground(I do) there is b12 producing bacteria that is present on the vegetables.

It was found in kimchi by Japanese scientists..there are studies out there that have proven it's presense in wild waters..of course if you drink tap water your not getting any b12 at all..

I dont take b12 supplements..neither does my gf and she has been vegan for like 5 years..I recently took her to the hospital when she had an infection and they did full blood work on her and said her b12 levels were completely normal.

Interesting. Ill look into it. Do you have any references that I can read up on by chance?

You guys are right that it is fully possible to live as a vegan and even have substansial muscle mass as a few body builders are vegan.

But most vegans ive met have nowhere the knowledge or dicipline that you show here, to be a vegan you need to know alot about nutrition as you need to replace all the goddies that meat contain.

So sure if you have thw will and knowledge it´s probably a great way to live from just the earth so to speak.

Personally i prefer the paleo way of looking at diet which is pretty close to what you guys do but with some meat and supplements.

I usually train almost every day in form of bjj or strength & conditioning plus i work full time in the construction business.

This means i eat between 3-4000kcal per day just to maintain my weight 180pounds, this is already alot of food and if i would to skip out on meat and protein shakes i would need to eat nonstop...

I use alot of john berardi´s philosofies and true to follow his 7rules




The 7 Rules of Good Nutrition

Here’s my take on it. I call these principles, "The 7 Rules of Good Nutrition."

These aren’t the newest techniques from the latest cutting-edge plan. Rather, they are simple, time-tested, no nonsense habits that you need to get into when designing a good eating program.

1. Eat every 2-3 hours, no matter what. You should eat between 5-8 meals per day.

2. Eat complete (containing all the essential amino acids), lean protein with each meal.

3. Eat fruits and/or vegetables with each food meal.

4. Ensure that your carbohydrate intake comes from fruits and vegetables. Exception: workout and post-workout drinks and meals.

5. Ensure that 25-35% of your energy intake comes from fat, with your fat intake split equally between saturates (e.g. animal fat), monounsaturates (e.g., olive oil), and polyunsaturates (e.g. flax oil, salmon oil).

6. Drink only non-calorie containing beverages, the best choices being water and green tea.

7. Eat mostly whole foods (except workout and post-workout drinks).
So what about calories, or macronutrient ratios, or any number of other things that I’ve covered in other articles? The short answer is that if you aren’t already practicing the above-mentioned habits, and by practicing them I mean putting them to use over 90% of the time (i.e., no more than 4 meals out of an average 42 meals per week violate any of those rules), everything else is pretty pointless.

Moreover, many people can achieve the health and the body composition they desire following these 7 rules alone. No kidding! In fact, with some of my clients I spend the first few months just supervising their adherence to these 7 rules—an effective but costly way to learn them.

Current research shows that this is unnecesasary. Article @LeanGains.

Well it depends on why you eat with that frequncy, berardi also describes this in his books.

The biggest pro from eating several small meals instead of a few big ones is that it´s easier to stay active if yor not toally full your stomach.

This is specially important to athletes who are berardis most clients, they usually need to eat a shitload to get their daily requrements and if they would pack this into only 3meals without any snacks they wouldnt be able to do squat after a meal.

Also timed nutrients are very real, it´s proven that eating most of your carbs during the day os better and getting more fat is good late before bed.



But just so you know snacks count as one meal so if you eat breakfeast lunch and dinner with asnack a few hours after each then you have 6meals.

I think what people who say they need to eat big meals and lots of meat forget is that a huge proportion of the body's energy will then have to be devoted to just breaking down and digesting all that food.

The body has to build the proteins it needs from amino acids. So it seems to make more sense to eat foods containing those individual amino acids (e.g. greens) than the already-combined long molecules of protein (e.g. in meat) which the body will have to first break down into amino acids before it can even begin to use them.

So far I've found that since I've based my diet on lots of blended green drinks (and blending of course also saves the body from much of the work of mechanically breaking down the food) I have much more energy, and sprong awake at 5.30 in the morning ready to go...

...which if you knew me is a miracle in itself.

vegan or carnivore,super foodie or junk fooder, one meal or five, the one thing that is undebatably superior is a fermented diet! one must ally with the micro organisms for they will claim ultimate victory in the end... if your concerned about the quality of your vitamins because of diet restriction fermenting you veggies will increase the quantity and quality of those vitamins...if you are worried about heavy meals weighing you down fermenting that heavy meal will do 90% of the digestive work for you. if you eat shitty food it will make it better, if you eat the best food it will make it better ad infidum...in term of vegan or not i think it is the difference between short term and long term(generations)effects...your bodies use some things immediately (enzymes sugars), but some things are stored up and used over the coarse of a life time and deficiencies of those things can get passed on from generation to another....so while i support anyone who chooses to take on a cleansing diet, green smoothies and algae stuff. i think if it as just that, a cleanse. and if those people wish to pass on heathly genes to there children they will want to stock up on some high quality animal based vitamins. its totaly possible to be super healthy over the coarse of years on a super raw vegan trip, but you have to be super aware to succeed that long.

I disagree with this one I think mainstream nutritional science is somewhat influenced by big businesses and does not always have people's best interest in mind.

Take Canada for example.

http://www.bewell-dowell...anada%20Food%20Guide.pdf

http://www.agriculture.t...rition/Serving-Size.html

So, our nutritional experts recommend more servings of dairy+grain than fruit+veg. Processed soy beverages. Lots of dairy(albeit "low fat" ). Pasta. Other heavily processed and packaged stuff. These "Doctors of nutritional science" want you to start your day with toasted wonderbread and a glass of tropicana

Another good one: http://www.agriculture.t...dForHealth/Partners.html

Instead of paying $700+ per course, there are some informative places on the web with far more accurate information, based on actual research. (Longecity is a good one).

I've taken a course at my local college and it taught nothing of which you say. My Teacher was really liberal, open minded, and incredibly knowledgeable.

He made a point to note that things like dairy are not as healthy as we have always been taught.

He also made a point to mention things like corrupt Monsanto and had us watch the movie FOOD INC.

Your looking at what our government recommends and saying that, that is what our colleges are teaching. This isn't very accurate.

Colleges are very liberal places IME... I'm not sure where your getting your information.

"Think for yourself, and question authority" - Tim Leary

Personal anecdote: I took a university nutrition course in which the teacher mentioned that ice cream could be a good source of fiber because of xantham gum. She was overweight (surprise, surprise). It was horrible information. The meat and dairy industry lobby the FDA to change the daily suggested amount of fat and protein. Only person worth trusting with regards to health information is yourself and your own experience.

"Colleges are very liberal places IME"

Do you have any links to basic guides on fermenting vegetables?

^ just make kimchi..cabbage is what you want becasue it already has the specific bacteria needed to make the culture..my gf makes it all the time I cant remember the recipe but there is lots of good kimchi recipes online..

and seriously..if you have never had raw fermented brasil nut cheese than do so....we culture it with acidophilus..

Berardi's article is titled "The 7 Rules of Good Nutrition" not Nutrition for Usain Bolt.

If I'm not mistaken Berardi uses fasted strength training so full stomach thing isn't really valid.

I think the need for eating every two hours is Detective Morland. Bunk.

International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: meal frequency
http://www.jissn.com/content/8/1/4

Critical review
http://www.leangains.com...ition-stand-on-meal.html

I would eat a lot more fruit and vegetables than i do if they weren't so damned expensive. I find it cheaper to eat less veg, and eat some meat instead, to be better in terms of value for money, ease of living, and being able to do the things in life that improve my "healthy status" such as exercise, etc.

I think i would struggle to lift weights with a veg diet, and would have to worry about protein levels, and would also be making life difficult travelwise with trying out new foods.


But money is also a factor, as well as texture and taste.