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Poorly understood family of AYAHUASCA vines Options
 
jamie
#1 Posted : 2/22/2012 2:03:54 AM

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Endlessness wrote:
EDIT: This thread is a mix of two threads which were merged. One was a thread Jamie started regarding Banisteriopsis muricata, and a thread that BecomeTheOther had started regarding different ayahuasca vines. Since they both were regarding different ayahuasca types and trying to untangle the mistery of mislabelled plants, taxonomy, ethnobotanical uses and alkaloid content, I decided to merge them. Sorry for any confusion. BecomeTheOther's starting post of his thread is further down this page



I am sure many people here who are versed in the botanical knowledge out there on ayahuasca are aware of Banisteriopsis Muricata, also known as Banisteria Argentea..This vine has a long history of use as the base of the ayahuasca brew in South America. While not technically Banisteriopsis "caapi", it is still very much a caapi vine. "Caapi" is traditionally the name given to a variety of Malpighiaceae vines by the natives that they use in brews called "ayahuasca", "natema", "yaje" and "caapi"..yet interestingly not all caapi's are even in the genus Banisteriopsis.

This is something I have wanted to bring up for a while now here actaully because it seems to be a part of the equation that is lacking adequate exploration.

I remember a few years back listening to a Mckenna talk where he mentions finding a vine in the Malpghiaceae family that he could not tell apart on hand from a banisteriopsis, but this was at the entrance to some Mayan Ruins..Palenque I think but I may be wrong on that. Then maybe 2 years back I am listening to one of the talks Raetsch gave where he mentions a possible mayan ayahuasca brew that contains a Malpighiaceae vine that was available in the area, but that the recipe seemed to have been lost. Then maybe 6 months ago, I cant remember where I come across in reading again a mention of a possible "mayahuasca"...

So I began to look into this more and I come aross Tetrapteris Methystica, a vine in the family Malpighiaceae that fits the profile concerning where it is found. The natives also use this one and call it "Caapi-pinima", oor "painted caapi".

*EDIT*..think I made a mistake here. Banisteriopsis Muricata is found as far north as mexico I think and could be the source of the mayan ayahuasca. It's leaves also contain DMT. I am unsure of how far north the Tetrapteris Methystica is found.

http://entheology.com/pl...ethystica-caapi-pinima/
http://www.entheology.or...viewer.asp?a=91&z=5

^note that they spelled it wrong it seems..it is not teltrapteris, it is tetrapteris. The wikipedia article on it has nothing really..

http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Tetrapterys_methystica

..and there is no entry at all for the Tetrapteris genus.

While I have seen Banisteriopsis Muricata vine for sale online both dried whole vine and live cuttings, I have never encountered this Tetrapteris Methystica anywhere. I dont think it is commercially available and I dont think anyone is testing it.

This stuff is caapi..True Caapi is not confined only to the banisteriopsis Genus it would seem..which is something I find surprising..

My first question is why is there only very limited literature on this species?..and why when it is mentioned is is only is passing?

My next question is what does this mean for us? The trend with other psychedelic alkaloids like DMT, or ibogaine is when we look within the same family or genus of plants we find other useful plants bearing similar alkaloid profiles..why is this not being explored in the same way?

Then there is this thread I found..
http://www.shaman-austra...ndex.php?showtopic=1145

It just makes sense that it is very possible that within the Tetrapteris(or even banisteriopsis) there are other species that are high in beta-carbolines, more cold hardy/faster growing etc and even more similar to traditional "caapi" than even peganum harmala. Such a species may very well exist that would be a useable alternative to banisteriopsis caapi for people that want to grow a useable ammount of an active Malpighiaceae species do but not reside in the tropics.

That is all I have for now but if anyone has any info on the topic please post it.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
jamie
#2 Posted : 2/22/2012 2:18:07 AM

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Also I think I read somewhere that this species is found naturally as far north as Mexico..so members in mexico might be interested in this vine as a local source of caapi to wildcraft, ethically of course. *EDIT* I am rererrinf here to Banisteriopsis Muricata occuring in Mexico but I am not 100% sure.
 
jamie
#3 Posted : 2/22/2012 2:29:09 AM

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soulfood
#4 Posted : 2/22/2012 2:31:06 AM

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Well I have nothing to add to this as this is the first time I've encounter'd these labels, but for sure I shall be watching closely for developments.

Good find Smile
 
Ez
#5 Posted : 2/22/2012 3:05:48 AM

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I was in Palenque when a small vine called my attention. Without much information to go on I chose to not mess with it. I am very curious about this subject. I have since ventured into Lago Atitlan in Guatemala and I get the feeling that there are many active species here....
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jamie
#6 Posted : 2/22/2012 3:08:20 AM

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http://www.scribd.com/do...m-HBK-Juss-H-mucronatum

Scroll about half way down and 2 Tetrapteris species are described that occur from mexico to central america.
 
jamie
#7 Posted : 2/22/2012 3:09:30 AM

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Ez wrote:
I was in Palenque when a small vine called my attention. Without much information to go on I chose to not mess with it. I am very curious about this subject. I have since ventured into Lago Atitlan in Guatemala and I get the feeling that there are many active species here....


Yeah..who knows, there very well could be "lost ayahuascas" all over central america.
 
jamie
#8 Posted : 2/22/2012 3:38:11 AM

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http://psychotropia.co/?p=997

Here is some more information on Banisteriopsis Muricata. It says there that Banisteriopsis Inebrians is found in mexico...I thought inebrains and banisteriopsis caapi were the same?

Interestingly, that article claims Banisteriopsis Argentea is native to india..and argentea and muricata are thought to be the same species. That is very interesting. In that case it would seem that tradtional ayahuasca is also native to india..can anyone confirm this?

If only I could get seeds for both muricata and tetrapteris..
 
jamie
#9 Posted : 2/22/2012 5:08:22 AM

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this might interest some people as well..

Banisteriopsis caapi var. caupuri
http://s140.photobucket.....jpg&sort=ascending

Notice the big ball like knots of the stems, opposed to the typical helical twist of the more commonly seen Banisteriopsis caapi var. tukunaka that most of us here get when ordering "caapi". This caupuri ayahuasca is said to be very potent.
 
ewok
#10 Posted : 2/22/2012 6:58:03 AM

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Thanks for sharing this info its given me hope of finding something in new zealand as cappi and rue are both banned from importing here.Will def follow this.
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ntwhtyouknw
#11 Posted : 2/22/2012 12:47:03 PM

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This is most interesting, thanks.
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jamie
#12 Posted : 2/23/2012 1:04:05 AM

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http://forums.ayahuasca....ic.php?f=13&t=26779

So now I come across this thread..which complicated things even more..

This verifies something I have thought about for a while..that many of us dont have real chaliponga at all..and the leaf that many people are drinking when they need 20g etc is something else alltogether. The true chaliponga does seem to be very active at just 2 or 3g for a full experience.

The "chaliponga" that some people have been getting that is active at like 15-20g seems to actaully be leaves of an Alicia (species,genus?..though I dont know if that is confirmed)..which is a species of black caapi in the family Malpighiaceae..This vine apparently is used as "ayahuasca negra" and contains DMT in the leaves and beta carbolines in the vine/bark..along with Banisteriopsis Muricata which is also a kind of black ayahuasca or "ayahuasca negra" and it too contains DMT in the leaves. Look at the pictures in that thread..it is clear that some of the plants being used as DMT admixtures in iquitos by curranders do not resemble diploterys or psychotria.

Then there is Banisteriopsis mathiasiae which is also used as ayauhasca apparentyl..and I know nothing at all about that species yet..jesus..

So for all the skeptics who assume all the "kinds" of caapi are really just about marketing..doesnt look like that opinion holds up any longer.
 
jamie
#13 Posted : 2/23/2012 1:15:32 AM

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Here is the "ayahuasca negra" or black caapi, whose vine is reported to be used as caapi and leaves as DMT admixture..druiddream found this so thank you druidream! So black caapi is apparently NOT banisteriopsis caapi at all..and either this Alicia anisopetala or banisteriopsis muricata..these are apparently the true black ayahuascas.

Alicia anisopetala

http://fm1.fieldmuseum.o.../?page=view&id=29684
 
ntwhtyouknw
#14 Posted : 2/23/2012 3:26:21 AM

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I hate to bring up dead topics, but I recall hearing about a vendor selling Harmala extracts which were tested by Nexians and found to contain DMT... Perhaps this could be the cause?


In any case, vine containing both RIMA and DMT is totally new to me, super interesting. Just can't help but have spiritual notions pop into my mind about it all.
Toadfreak!

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jamie
#15 Posted : 2/23/2012 4:06:27 AM

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^ I doubt it..Banisteriopsis Muricata is so rare and I have only so far seen the dry vine for brewing for sale once personally..the Alicia is not even available anywhere outside the amazon.

The DMT in Muricata is only found in the leaves though anyway..so they would have to extract vine and leaf to have any DMT in the final product..and the Muricata(ayahuasca negra) leaves are sold online as chaliponga not as caapi leaf as far as I know..so it would have to knowingly since we all know "chaliponga" is an admixture plant, even if the muricata sold as chali is not really chaliponga.
 
universecannon
#16 Posted : 2/23/2012 5:05:58 AM



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very interesting info, thank you!
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jamie
#17 Posted : 2/23/2012 5:57:35 PM

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I made a mistake in the first post about tetrapteris being found outside of the americas. The tetrapteris genus as far as I know is only found within the americas. I have edited out the part that mentioned its range extending into other parts of the world.

Also my claim of DMT being found in banisteriopsis muricata was called into question by someone thinking I had mistaken it with the other "ayahuasca negra", from the Alicia genus..I think I was right there thought as there are numerous sources all claiming to have found DMT in muricata leaves..some of those sources already posted in this thread though to back up the claim when I made the post..anyway here are some...


"N,N-DMT. dmt is present not in the vine itself (i.e., the stems) but in the leaves. Intertwining stems of Banisteriopsis muricata, found in Peten (Guatemala) and Chiapas (Mexico), recall numerous illustrations of cosmic umbilical cords from the Classic and post-Classic Mayan period. Some people believe that the Maya used this vine to brew a type of "mayahuasca." (Photographed in Tikal) This yellow-blossomed vine was published under the name Banisteria tomentosa."
- Christian Ratsch
http://www.naturalpedia.com/DMT.html

"Banisteriopsis muricata, Harmine up to 6%, harmaline up to 4%, plus DMT[85]"

from here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/...t_of_psychedelic_plants

also..

"It is also listed here as a DMT source in a list of plants to ban in australia.
http://www.gardenfreedom...es-related-inc-natives/

Banisteriopsis argentea (Spreng. exA. Juss.)
Morton
A native of India, this species contains tetrahydroharman, 5-methoxytetrahydroharman, harmine, harmaline, and the ~-carboline leptaflorin (Ghosal et al., 1971). The leaves contain only 0.020/0 alkaloids [(+)-Nb-methyltetrahydroharmane, N,N-DMT, N,N-DMT-Nb-oxide, (+)tetrahydroharmine, harmaline, choline, betaine, (+)-5-methoxytetrahydroharmane] (Ghosal and Mazumder 1971). We know, however, of no traditional use as a psychoactive plant (Schultes and Farnsworth 1982, 147*). Banisteriopsis argentea may be synonymous with Banisteriopsis muricata (see below)."

http://psychotropia.co/?p=997

^I dunno about that one still though..as it claims banisteriopsis muricata is also found native to india..I need to look more into that to make sure.

As far as I can tell for now we do have *some* evidence to assume that it is likely that B. Muricata does contain DMT..but it is not 100% verified at the moment.
 
Entropymancer
#18 Posted : 2/23/2012 6:23:47 PM

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Your link to the wikipedia page is broken, here it is for anyone trying to follow it: List of psychedelic plants

I'm skeptical of the source that's cited regarding B. muricata alkaloid content. The page itself (giftpflanzen.com) doesn't seem entirely credible. Any time someone makes a claim about alkaloid content without citing any sources, I'm suspicious. They claim the bark contains 6% harmaline and 4% harmine (for a whopping 10% RIMA content!), but the Witoto people regard it as being weaker than B. caapi (Davis & Yost 1983). A quick search on Google Scholar doesn't turn up any publications reporting the alkaloid content of B. muricata (maybe I just need to dig deeper, but I'm busy diving down a different rabbit hole at the moment).


Source Cited
  • Davis, W., and J.A. Yost. 1983. "Novel hallucinogens from Eastern Ecuador." Botanical Museum Leaflets Harvard University 29(3): 291-295.
 
jamie
#19 Posted : 2/23/2012 7:06:25 PM

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thank you for that entropy!

Yeah I agree about that 6% claim..that does seem very high.
 
BecometheOther
#20 Posted : 4/24/2012 9:05:27 PM

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Well for a while now, i have been very interested in finding outstanding cappi plants, and investigating the differences between black, red, and yellow ect. ayahuasca..

The theories i present are my own as well as sourced from ideas from people and threads on this forum, and other forums that discuss the topic. There is a few threads emerging along these lines, but as far as i know alot of this info is new to the western psychonaught.

Also i am in no way an expert, scientist, or botanist. Only a person of reasonable intillectual capacity who has great interest in the subject. Some info you read may conflict with what you have heard or believe to be true. as always is the case with ayahuasca, there is much confusion. I seek to start a discussion about this family of vines that resolves some of this confusion...

In many a shamans garden, there are vines that resemble b. cappi, but arent b. cappi, and some are classified by science, and some are not. But the psychoactive properties of these vines are unknown, even to local Peruvians. Only the shamans know of these plants, and it is always the case that shamans from different areas call the same plant different names...

Chaliponga is one of the plants where there is the most confusion. Some identify it as banisteriopsis rusbyana, a vine that looks like ayahuasca vine, still others identify it as a small bush like psychotria viridis, some identify it is diplopterys cabrerana.

The reason for this is there is at least 4 most likely many more Amazonian plants and vines that are used as ayahuasca admixtures that are called "Chaliponga".

I think the locals way of classifying plants is much more broad and less linear than our classification. I think (some of) their names refer to a general class of plants with similiar functions, rather than a particular species. Im not completly sure how it works thats just what i gather.

Alot of the stuff sold as chaliponga, can be several different kinds of leaf. Everyone is after the super potent chaliponga, which is potent at 5 grams or less, and generally is more potent and intense than even mimosa. Whatever the true identity of the true chaliponga is, it seems that it doesnt DROP SEED at all. Its a very rare and illusive plant and you will never see a seed or cutting for sale. If you do you either have a very unique oppurtunity or it is one of these other plants identified as chaliponga.

One of these plants FOR SURE that is most frequently sold as chali, is a plant that goes by many names, most commonly Banisteriopsis muricata or "black ayahuasca". This is one of the plants very poorly understood by the western world, and even in its own region. Banisteriopsis muricata can refer to black ayahuasca white ayahuasca... there are several colors of "black ayahuasca", or b. muricata. These ARE NOT the same thing as black or white ayahuasca you see for sale on vendors websites.

Most likely black red and white ayahuasca from most websites is either banisteriopsis cappi, or another very closly related sub-species. That is not to say that some vendors here and there really do have b. muricata black ayahuasca, but if they do they should make that explicitly clear because it differs greatly in potency and effects of b. cappi.

For example, when b. muricata is prepared, there is no other plant used. As we discussed it contains DMT in the leaves and harmalas in the vine. Preparation is different than standard ayahuasca preparation, because it is cooked much longer and is decanted several times and cooked down to an "essential oil" (basically like a tea, boiled for much longer and allowed to thicken and concentrate) The vine and leaf of the plant are combined to make this brew. for me 50 grams of the bark and 15-20 grams of the leaf is rare experience to behold. Also when working with less known admixtures and plants extreme caution must be used. The vine resembles ayahuasca but is black in color, the leafs resemble cappi leaves.

Another plant is found in water. Ordinarrly a cappi vine would drown if it lived in water all the time, but this plant is reffered to as oco-yage, or water ayahuasca. The identity of this plant is also disputed, but it is definetly one that is sold as chaliponga. A tentative identification of the plant is alecia anisopetala, it resembles the ayahuasca vine exept is much more RED and SMOOTH expecially on the inside. It also doesnt smell like cappi. The leaf can be broad with a point like aya leafs, or more mature leaves are bigger and less rounded more long thin and pointed. I also have this plant. It is pure jungle magic, its preparation on chemical constituents are thought to be similiar to b. muricata. The vine and leaf are used,, with no other admixture. It hasent been anylized but it is thought to contain harmalas in the vine and dmt in the leaf. it is highly probable that OCO YAGE and ALECIA ANISOPETALA (not spell checked) are one in the same.

There are a few others to be thrown into this clump of jungle mystery plants, which i am less qualified to speak about because i dont know much about them, only know of them:

ushpa chaqui- as far as i know there is no botanical classification?? It is not a vine like b. cappi or muricata. It is often identified as d. cabrerana, and this i believe is the plant MOST LIKELY to be the "chaliponga" that is potent at 5 grams. it is a bushy plant like chacruna, instead of a vine, and has long pointed leaves, consistant with what is thought of as chaliponga.

there is a family of vines called malphigae (may have spelled that wrong)- which resemble ayahuasca, and are even more poorly understood, but are to be considered part of this "new ayahuasca family" of plants which is ONLY JUST NOW coming to light.


One way to tell if you have "chaliponga" or which "chaliponga" you have is to examine the leaf. The leafs of the vines and muricatas, look like cappi leaves, they are broad in the middle with a little point at the end. They are also smooth and glossy.

The leaves of the water yage, resemble aya leaves, but once fully mature they resemble chaliponga leaves because they are long and thin. Heres the kicker, the "real chaliponga" (potent at 5 grams) leaves are smooth and glossy. When dried they BREAK OFF EASILY. the leaves of the oco yage have lots of HAIRS. thats how you know, it has hairs and isnt smooth and glossy.

Either way these are the plants we need to learn more about. These miracle ayahuascas which contain the power and the light in one plant. B. muricata, oco yage, and the other unidentified vines which resemble ayahuasca.

The next step is to get up pictures of all these different plants and sort of organize it and make some sort of AYAHUASCA REFERENCE DATABASE with pictures of plants, and descriptions of their properties and local uses etc.

Were just scratching the surface here, there is much to be discovered in this poorly understood family of vines.

Cheers! and contributions is valuable, even pictures or stories, anything!
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