This was one of my more recent DMT experiences; and one of the most profound...after this trip I totally changed my life around and went apparently crazy to the outside world who didn't know of my DMT/psychedelic endeavors. One irresistably beautiful day last fall, I took 3g rue tea and an hour later 2 hits of primo LSD. The L had been calling me lately and I decided to finally answer. *Bear with the 'fanatical' details of this trip* This LSD trip had summed up many bizarre everyday experiences I had been having recently (absurd synchornicicty...like the universe/God was playing jokes on me), a very profound Ayahuasca experience I'd had a week before, and a summer full of incredibly amazing insights into life, reality, God, etc. I was lying in a park reading a book (Ishmael by Daniel Quinn...must read!) when the effects began to come on. The part of the book I was reading and the experiences I'd had recently we're definately linked. And then it ALL came together more than It ever had before. The trees and bushes and grass around me all became covered in beautiful DMT-like patterns and faces...of which I was a part. The whole pattern 'overlay' was like a huge carpet moving over everything. It was God. I then remembered, again, that I was God. That everything was. You see, we've been playing a game here. We've always been God. Everything is and can only be. So where does that leave us? We forget. We've forgotten that we're God! Why would we do that!? A. So we could remember how fucking awesome We are A.1 Without the forgetting, there cannot be the remembering B. It's really, REALLY funny...a Cosmic Joke; a joke of cosmic proportions (you will understand this soon! And you will laugh, and all of humanity will laugh VERY SOON!) Anyway, in a state of full Oneness with everything, I go back to my computer and my hands just start typing. There was no conscious effort involved. I typed over 10 pages of hilarious 'truth' that was free flowing through me (much of it seems incredibly delusional to people who've never taken psychedelics...I may post it here sometime). I laughed and laughed and laughed. Why? Because there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of. This insight would solidify later on as I'd see that We on earth have absolutely nothing to worry about *if only everyone WOULD stop worrying* (climate change, peak oil, new world order/fascism...don't worry...everything is happening PERFECTLY). You see, God is unlimited love (God is also everything...its a crazy concept but bear with this). As we forget that we too are unlimited love as *reality* (which is also God) we typically act out of fear. We fear death, loss of 'stuff', we worry and worry and worry about all kinds of senseless things...for no reason at all. God would never need to be afraid of anything...right? Fear and Love...they're opposites! LONG story short...don't be afraid of things like death or that this is your random and only shot at life (our reality is constructed to make us think this...it's an illusion! As is time and many other things!) So to cut to the chase, I decided to share my insights with a female friend...to see if someone else could understand what I was so sure of or if I was just looney cartooney. She read my 10 page thing. Rang some bells with her. We went to go get some whippits and some DMT (I was still very high on LSD). We come back to her place, and she starts hitting the pipe (we also smoked some ground up rue seeds prior to this). A sense of amazingly utter bewilderment overcomes her...and she INSISTS that I hit the DMT pipe. I'd stopped using vapd. DMT several months earlier due to some overuse/bad trips I'd had when I'd decided that smoking it wasn't the way to go. But she was sure that I needed to see what she was seeing. I vaguley recall how many hits I took. All I can say is that her apartment transformed into the most fantastic, futuristic dimension imaginable. Everything was new and REAL and moving much faster. I can't even describe it...it was really like being 1000 years into the future. Beyond anything you can imagine and exactly what you'd want if you could imagine it. We knew everything then. There were no questions, only answers, only truth, when we spoke...it came from the soul. The Cosmic Joke unveiled itself...and all we could do was LAUGH AND LAUGH AND LAUGH because the whole world lives in COMPLETELY irrational fear and denial. We were FULLY awakened...like NO NEED for sleep. We were both in shock. It was DEAD OBVIOUS that humanity could actually move into this realm of experience PERMANENTLY and that there would be NOTHING to worry about EVER. And that we could *make it happen*. All of the problems could go away. WE MUST UNITE AS ONE AND STOP BEING AFRAID FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. WE MUST REMEMBER THAT WE ARE LOVE AND THEN BE WHO WE ARE. It's that simple! There is a damn good reason our minds produce DMT...because we're fully evolved in mind to be multidimensional beings! We both decided, for rather obvious reasons, that we didn't need to continue to go to school any longer. Why would you if you knew everything already!? God is our souls and God is all-knowing...we must get into a state of full oneness. DMT is the key. I'm writing a book about this right now, to ease in the greater public about how all of this stuff (everything in our reality/experience in fact) all ties together...much info. about psychedelics, reality, how we've basically been constructing a world to connect humanity for the subconscious reason so that we can unite (like globalization and the internet...which will soon be made obsolete by the INNERNET of conscoiusness that connects us all for we are telepathic!). Unfortunatley all my friends are away and I got into a bunch of legal problems (my own family thought I lost my mind and had me ARRESTED for manf. DMT [which I wasn't doing luckily]...they weren't as understading as I'd hoped) but it's all happening and it's all good. It's easy to *forget* again and go back into proverbial *sleep* of 'normal' life. When *It* happens it must keep happening to gain momentum or it'll 'die' on its own accord. *It* has happened to several other people I've been with and I can make it happen to anyone who is open. You can make it happen to yourself and then anyone else. Awaken yourself. Awaken others. *Make It Happen* Psychedelics make it VERY EASY! A crazy post I know. You will experience this for yourself if that is what you wish. As I've said in a few other posts here, humanity is perched for a radical evolution of consciousness which hinges on DMT. Humanity can enter into the dawn of a new era of human experience which would be nothing short of heavenly and boundless. This can happen NOW! I honestly cannot see how there WONT be a HUGE WORLDWIDE revolution in the near future. The key to it all is *LOVING YOURSELF*! Cheers!

That was a very uplifting post. The affect of DMT and other physecdelic really shines through in these reports. I enjoy reading all of them. Please don't think I am trying to take anything away from your ideas, however I do find one part of your report a little hard to understand. You mention that everything is as it is suppose to be, everything is perfect as per Gods plan, that we don't need to worry about anything etc. I was watching TV the other night and it was about the Iraq war, infact about one of the small struggling hospitals in a small part of Iraq where there are many bombings. There was one little kid in there, one of many, he must have been around 8 or 10 years old. He had lived through a bombing. The doctors where cutting holes into each side of him to try and drain the fluid that was leaking inside him. Unfortunately they had no pain killers or anesectic so he felt everything and was wide awake, he was make terrible sounds as they did it. I had my hand over one eye and the other eye wanted to close, I really wanted to just turn the TV to another channel. Then they started sticking this big needle in and out of his stomach, it must have been 6 inches long, apparently looking for more bleeding areas, he was screaming during that and had to have people holding him down by his arms which where bent back next to his head. I didn't know whether to be cranky at the people that would do that, at God or what, but it just did not seem right, not for any reason. Do you think that God would have had this in his plans ? If you where God would you expect that boy to go through that all to fulfill a cosmic joke ? Perhaps that's just the collateral damage of creation ? Again, please don't think I am trying to be nasty here, I'm not, to the contry infact.

Nice report, cilosyb, but I have to agree with rightangle as he almost made me cry with his story about the boy from Iraq. I was as happy when I read cilosyb's report, in which I recognized myself as I was sad when I read rightangle's post. I usually relativise a lot. I don't see my own problems as real problems, but just botherings compared to "real" problems. Many people are just worrying about theirselves and find themselves and their problems very important. I came to realise this only after psychedelics (I mean REALLY realise/understand) There's nothing to fear, because we're not really important. One person on it's own is not important. I don't even think whole humanity is important. This doesn't take away the fact that I'm happy to be here to enjoy life and love. Anyway, thinking that there are no problems at all (when not on psychedelics) is just denial. There are real problems in the world. There's AIDS, war, hunger in Africa, floods in Bangladesh. There are just so many people suffering around the world. I don't think there's any purpose to that. I will not accept that this is the Will of God. I like the idea of a cosmic joke. I have had ideas like yours myself, although not on such a large and therefor funny scale. I do learn things from my journeys while in an alternate states of consiousness, but I don't take them as a fact. I will always draw a line between what can be taken as a fact, what can be learned from (for use in daily live and on a spiritual level) and what was an interesting experience but cannot be used for anything at all but a good laugh.

[quote:9615990574="Doerak"]I will not accept that this is the Will of God.[/quote:9615990574] God gave us free will and it's us that creat pain. And pain is a great teacher and it makes us strong so we can handle the power of higher dimensions. I understand it's hard to accept things like the suffering of a child. Mankind still does not see the big picture. I've seen things and I believe things are exacly how they are supposed to be. If you cause pain you will have to feel that pain later to learn and balance out the omniverse. It's called karma. And I also believe that we choose to suffer because suffering is not all bad, no matter how bad it is I've suffered and I know pain and I also know what that pain gave me. Thank you for your post cilosyb.

It is through the greatest suffering that we gain the fullest experience of joy. Is it God's plan that so many people suffer? God has no plan. I'd like to stress that God is NOT something outside of ourselves; WE ARE GOD. God is 'Ourself'; God is The Process of life itself. We have ultimate freedom to do anything we desire, including inflicting suffering on others. Ultimately all suffering is temporary; like I said it's a big joke in this case...if suffering people knew the liberation and bliss that death would bring them they'd all kill themselves. we'd all laugh hysterically at such things as the 'death penalty'. In fact I'm rather sure that if everyone knew what death brings a lot of people would go kill themselves or decide to live without any fear...but we could just transend 'death' as we know it in our reality. All the world's killing would stop if everyone understood this. 'God killing God' is rather ridiculous. Ego really screws us, collectively. I realize that there are 'problems' in the world, but I no longer see them as problems but rather solutions waiting to happen. ALL of our 'problems' can end RIGHT NOW. Everyone can be healed and we can move into a reality where our 'problems' wouldn't even exist. No death, no pain, nothing we didn't want to experiece...but all these things must first be experienced to provide us with a context of choosing what we wish to experience and not experience over again. Experience is what helps us evolve in consciousness. The greatest problem I see is that the powers at be strongly resist such radical changes taking place...a lot of people have heavily vested interets in the world as is, they fear any change, and would scoff someone like me proclaiming that the solutions to our problems are spiritual. They just don't understand yet; there's a lot of fear there. That's why I'm trying to write a book...if everyone knew what was truly possible for humanity, moving into 'this' would be our only priority. This is the same thing that began happening in the 60's though I don't think 'they' fully connected the picture. I have healed and awakened myself and many others; I'm absolutely sure that EVERYONE can be healed of EVERYTHING we call a sickness; and our collective sickness can be healed. The unfortunate aspect of modern medicine, is that they concern themselves with the physical aspects of sickness when in fact the sickness is rooted in our soul and this is what must be healed, I see psychedelics as very powerful spiritual medicines. This is nothing but a dream turning into a nightmare. We're ready to wake up. BTW the first report wasn't the only experience I had which led me to these conclusions. There were several other experiences, psychedelic and sober which have shown me that all of this was possible and I was on my 'path'. I found like I found exactly what I was alive for, I stopped needing to sleep for a couple weeks, I was radiantly blissful while sober...all kinds of crazy shit. Many around me experienced the same. Alas winter came, my friends went elsewhere (having others around who've experienced the same is imperitive), I got into a bunch of legal garbage...but I have no doubt that all of this IS happening. ***BTW If you've ever had any experieces of the divine with psychedelics I highly suggest reading "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch if you want to understand more about all of this or life or God in general. It's like a DMT trip in a book...very eye opening. The author had a very similar experience to mine where his hands would answer questions as he'd write them, and he turned his whole dialouge into several books...from my expeirences prior to even reading these books they're dead on.

[quote3006aaa7d]God gave us free will and it's us that creat pain. And pain is a great teacher and it makes us strong so we can handle the power of higher dimensions. [/quote3006aaa7d] Who's to say that we are no limited in the world, rather they free. We are we always trying to change our consciousness from it's 'standard' (and why is the world against us doing that). If man is God then why is the world of man in the state that it is in now and has been throughout all of modern history ? We've had thousands of years of human suffering to learn from, and look at us now. What have we learnt from it. That suffering is not good and is to be avoided where possible. We all go to huge lengths to avoid and prevent suffering, so why embrace the concept of learning through it ? You can chop off a finger everyday for 10 days and you would then be a genious.. right ? Maybe mild emotional suffering can teach, yes, not torturous suffering of the innocent. Mild emotional suffering can humbling, but not soul destroying suffering. Anyway there is nothing to suggest that a life without any suffering at all would wrong. Think of Buddha, he spent his life in luxury, sheilded from suffering. Then one day he ventured out and saw the Truth of the world, he saw the suffering. What did he learn from that ? That Life is suffering and that we should try to reach Nirvana and avoid being reincarnated. Think of the one creature in creation that will suffer the most, that creature may be a human, it may be another species. What lesson is worth such ? Everything else must, MUST, be measured by the suffering of that creature before anything Good can be accepted from this world. Man did not create earth quakes that crush him (and other creatures) he did not create tsunamis or droughts that leave creatures to starve slowly, diseases etc etc etc. Those things are part of the material world where we find ourselves. A place where we are blinded to our origin, blinded to our future and blinded to our current state. Big pictures can be dangerous. Big pictures are the holocaust, the inquisition, world wars. They don't see the individuals. Big pictures are chicken factories where there are 10,000 chickens living their 2 month lives in a cage the size of an A4 piece of paper, 100's of them will become so fat during that time that their legs will give way, and they will sit and die from the infections of their own shit, but because it is not economic (the big picture) they are no helped at all, not even to die. I prefer to view the small picture myself. Even if you have a magic cure today that will stop all suffering from this day forth, for all creatures, not just humans (why do we always forget about the other creatures on the planet !), that does not cure suffering of all the billions before us. If suffering is needed for our 'lessons' then why try to cure it anyway ? Yes, I do hope and believe that DMT and other drugs will help humanity, that they will light us from within and that we will realise that there is more than this illusion than we are presented with. Yes there is pure diviness and I too have experienced it. Those are my thoughts at this time, please don't take any of this personally, I have no negative thoughts or energies towards any of you. I only seek the Truth, even when I don't like what I see. Maybe I am wrong about everything, forgive me if I am and please convince me that I am.

[quote:0b54cce82b]It is through the greatest suffering that we gain the fullest experience of joy.[/quote:0b54cce82b] You tell that to the people that have had themselves blown apart in Iraq and who have seen the horror, you tell that to the greiving families who have lost their children. They are not and will no experience the greatest joy from it. There is a word call Tragedy. Look it up. It just is not so and it is an insult to those poor people to suggest it.

[quote:f8b1f0b8c2]If you cause pain you will have to feel that pain later to learn and balance out the omniverse. It's called karma. And I also believe that we choose to suffer because suffering is not all bad, no matter how bad it is[/quote:f8b1f0b8c2] My friend do you realise how hard and cold those words are. The millions killed in the gas chambers in the holocast did not deserve it, they did not choose it. The children bombed in wars did not do anything to deserve it. The animals hit by cars on the edge of the highways did not deserve it nor did they choose it. Anyway Karma is another idea of tit for tat. I don't beleive it is a good thing. Forgivness is the way to go, not the vengance of Karma.

all interesting posts, certainly relevant stuff.

I firmly believe that at some deep level we bring every experience of life onto ourselves. Does that mean we deserve it? Killing other people seems like an awful thing. I really think that the greatest suffering comes from the fear of our lives ending and not the actual experience itself...I have had a couple NDE/OBEs and what I have expeirenced was the most incredible liberation, beauty, and bliss fathomable...reunion with God. All suffering is only temporary. Much of it could be avoided by simply choosing not to suffer regardless of what we experience, and acknowledging that our bodies are tools we have, not things that we are. Yes, these are just words, they would probably mean nothing to someone whose been torn apart by bombs...unless that person knew that everything could be healed and replaced. EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Everyone will be healed eventually and will be reunited with God...and death isn't necessary for humanity to experience this. Everything we experience in our reality helps us evolve...EVERYTHING. Destruction and suffering are ugly and unnecessary. All of it can end NOW.

[quote:8d4e2d24d3] I firmly believe that at some deep level we bring every experience of life onto ourselves. [/quote:8d4e2d24d3] So the boy in the hospital in Iraq bought that on himself ? His parents ?? The kids dying of disease in hospitals ? The animals dying of disease or injury in the wild ? They all bought it on themselves ? Or is it karma from a previous life perhaps ? If it is some Karmic lesson atleast they should know what the punishment is for or how will they ever learn through such a (terrible) lesson ? Death isn't the big fear for alot of people, for some it offers hope of an end to suffering. Some believe it is even a gift. After all Pontius Pilot's punishment was to roam the world forever and yet the options for his punishment where limitless, apparently that was the worst. It can all be fixed now ? Before you said that everything is how it should be, that "everything is happening PERFECTLY" and that there is nothing to worry about, so why the need to fix anything ? You also said that "It is through the greatest suffering that we gain the fullest experience of joy." but now you are saying that "Destruction and suffering are ugly and unnecessary. All of it can end NOW" Even if there is a miracle cure for all conflict, for every madmen, for every disease, a way to prevent every natural disaster, every starving person and everything else that we have 'bought upon ourselves" what about the rest of the creatures that roam the planet. The majority of life isn't human, unless you believe that they don't suffer and don't really matter ? If not then how are they going to rid their suffering ? .

[quote:847a4f7d23="rightangle"] It can all be fixed now ? Before you said that everything is how it should be, that "everything is happening PERFECTLY" and that there is nothing to worry about, so why the need to fix anything ? You also said that "It is through the greatest suffering that we gain the fullest experience of joy." but now you are saying that "Destruction and suffering are ugly and unnecessary. All of it can end NOW" [/quote:847a4f7d23] everything is happening PERFECTLY, and all of it can end NOW, If we choose it. Of course we won't choose if it isn't what is meant to be. thus things will continue to happen perfectly despite our illusion of free-will and delusion of power (to stop anything) *NB* This is just an exercise in logic and in no way represents my own beliefs.

[quote:6e4176f41e]everything is happening PERFECTLY, and all of it can end NOW, If we choose it. [/quote:6e4176f41e] If everything is hapening perfectly then why would we choose to end it ? Perfection is not terrible suffering of the innocent. How can a child starving to death or dying from disease end it now ? How can the people in Iraq stop being bombed (from either 'side) ? How do all of the creatures on this planet that are suffering right now stop it ? These things are not perfection in any sense or from any perspective. Please elaborate on how we can end all suffering now. [quote:6e4176f41e] Of course we won't choose if it isn't what is meant to be. thus things will continue to happen perfectly despite our illusion of free-will and delusion of power (to stop anything) [/quote:6e4176f41e] How can we choose to stop anything if we have an illusion of free will and and delusion of power to stop anything ? If that is the case then ever terrible event of history is some kind of destiny. So that would mean that God was behind Hitler and the holocaust was part of this perfection. Those two words should not even be together and I actual have headspins just from writing that .

[quote:2c83cb10a6="rightangle"]If everything is hapening perfectly then why would we choose to end it ?[/quote:2c83cb10a6] Ack, bad syntax Though I take it from the rest of your post that you knew what I meant [quote:2c83cb10a6="rightangle"] How can we choose to stop anything if we have an illusion of free will and and delusion of power to stop anything ? [/quote:2c83cb10a6] we can't choose not to choose. determinism is a bitch that way [quote:2c83cb10a6="rightangle"]If that is the case then ever terrible event of history is some kind of destiny. So that would mean that God was behind Hitler and the holocaust was part of this perfection. Those two words should not even be together and I actual have headspins just from writing that .[/quote:2c83cb10a6] God is behind everything because God IS everything. What is terrible except what you decide is terrible. Who is the master who makes the grass green?

There is no such thing as imperfection. Everything is and can only be perfect...regardless of what happens, how it happens, or why it happens. Imperfection is just your perspective. Was God behind Hitler? GOD WAS HITLER. Life is a PROCESS and every event that happens HELPS THE PROCESS. Even Hitler. Hitler advanced the consciousness of the human race by demonstrating what we do NOT wish to do ever again. Good vs. evil is again a mental construct...nothing is 'bad/wrong/evil' lest thinking make it so. There is no inherent 'evil' in the world...and as we evolve (though we have been doing so incredibly slowly due to religion and societal conditioning and such) we are moving away from a mindset that favors violence (I'm not saying this is true for everyone yet...). There are higher and lower levels of consciousness which people decide to live by. Naturally we evolve from lower to higher as our understanding of life grows...which few people think that it can, and thus it does not (few in the scientific community would accept that we *never* actually die, or that we could actually transcend reality...because they have a limited perspective on life). We can choose to end all world conflict because it no longer serves us; it will not serve anyone's desire to move onto a new era of human experience. The first step in all of this is a fundamental shift of consicousness, a greater awareness that we're not limited to this reality and that we could create a heavenly expereince Here, Now, and that the power of God is in our hearts, not the sky, bullets, or bombs. We can choose to end it because We Are One. When One of us suffers, we all sufffer, when One of is finds heaven on earth, we all do, because We Are All One. Expand your notion of 'self' to include everyone else. There are sick parts of ourself. There are beautiful parts. All of us are evolving as One. People must be made aware of what truly is possible for humanity and that creating suffering as we do will not allow us to evolve past this. Of course, it isn't even necessary for everyone to0 jump aboard. What's needed is critical mass and this need only be around 5% of the entire population deciding they want something different. That's not hard. The world has never been so connected...everything that has ever happened on earth led up to this...IT ALL HAPPENS PERFECTLY. Things do need to change if we wish fot this to happen and not continue to destroy ourselves...we need to WAKE UP...but everyting is set up perfectly for it to change. The greatest foremost change any of us can bring to the world are changes within ourselves. I believe the rest of the creatures will be fine too. Everything will be fine. All suffering is only temporary. BTW nothing is 'meant' to happen or meant to not happen based on the judgment of an outside force [i:797450ffbd]which there is none[/i:797450ffbd]. There is only us, what we are choosing to do, and wether or not what we're doing serves our desires, or does not, and how we choose to act accordingly. Unfortunatley, few people see the world this way yet. Most people's consciousness is only concerned with satisfying their own bodily desires. But we will evolve. Or we will all die off. It's our choice. More life or more death. More love or more fear ~ the fundamental choice of all actions.[/i]

Cilosyb, I'm glad you exist. I have been looking for people with similar experiences as I have had. The experience is very hard to articulate right, and most often it comes out butchered. I agree, bad things must happen so that we know what [ia108ab181]not[/ia108ab181] to do. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for suffering. Suffering is key to learning. When we were a much more infantile race we did not know it was wrong to kill others. We learned not to kill people by killing people. Except we haven't quite got that one down yet. Like in todays world, many people know it is wrong to pollute the environment, eat food filled with antibiotics, hormones and pesticides. But many people are ignorant of these things, they think it's ok to use up all the resources all at once as fast as possible, and it's probably because we have not really suffered yet from doing so. If the worlds climate begins to collapse we will see our wrong doings and better ourselves. You know, many people thought smoking tobacco regularly was ok a hundred years ago, I'm sure many did not want to believe in that. But today we all know it's bad for us and we know the consequences. I agree that this is the time that the world must awaken or will be doomed to ourselves. And that is an undesirable fate. It's the hardest question that I've been puzzled with for over a year.. What should we do? Also I can't believe your family would turn on you like that. That is evidence of the kind of world we are living in. I've been longing to share with my family the dreams I've had, but I fear the same thing. That they will not understand me and may cut me off from them. But I hope that when I do our family bond is strong enough so they would at least accept me for who I am.

I've seen this same truth but I do not talk about it in the open 'cause there are many who are not ready to accept it. But one day they too will. Especially those who are asking the question: What is all this pain for. If you ask YOU WILL GET THE ANSWERS. But only when your soul is ready for the truth. The maya is the perfect illution. But at some point everyone will get the point. It's beyond words so don't ask me to explain in words. Only God or whatever you like to call it, can lead you to the truth about yourself and your existence. p.s. This can happen in your next life or later. Many people are realizing this now 'cause it's the dawn of a new era. Yes the suffering is about to be over. If you don't see it coming then I can't help you. And if you don't agree to what I have to say then fine Once I didn't agree to any of this and I was angry and I suffered alot. But suffering forced me to seek truth and I got truth. But I'm still seeking and I'm still receiving

[quote:a42f043cbb]When we were a much more infantile race we did not know it was wrong to kill others. We learned not to kill people by killing people.[/quote:a42f043cbb] All that suffering has taught in your example is that suffering is bad and is to be avoided. The last very recent 200 years of our history has seen more war, death and suffering than ever before, so I guess that lesson didn't work so well. [quote:a42f043cbb] God is behind everything because God IS everything. What is terrible except what you decide is terrible. [/quote:a42f043cbb] Yes and millions have decided what is terrible within this world already, you don't speak for them. [quote:a42f043cbb] There is no such thing as imperfection. Everything is and can only be perfect...regardless of what happens, how it happens, or why it happens. Imperfection is just your perspective.[/quote:a42f043cbb] According to you God killed millions of innocent men, woman and children and created untold suffering as a lesson that this it should not happen again (even though it still does anyway). Let's be clear, this is part of your idea of God's perfection right ? There is nothing imperfect in it. We have a brain to work out what is right and wrong, most people can see how wrong genocide is, without need for physical proof. Genocide continues to this day anyway, so I guess Gods still trying to show us how bad it is. Oh but hang on, suffering is only temporary so that makes it all ok. The holocaust wasn't Evil or bad, was it ? That's just a perspective. I'd guess it was the perspective of each of the millions that went through it. [quote:a42f043cbb] We can choose to end all world conflict because it no longer serves us; [/quote:a42f043cbb] But it served us before so it was ok then ? You are saying on one hand that every war and all suffering that has ever come from creation was meant to be and is part of God's perfection. Yet on the other hand you are saying that if we don't change and stop creating suffering we won't evolve (even though you believe that "Through the Greatest Suffering we obtain the Greatest Joy" and that if we don't change things then we will die out. If everything that has been is meant to be and it is all a perfect plan then why worry about making changes to prevent us from dying out now at this point ? It's all perfect isn't it ? If we die out then that is perfection too. The Truth is that terrible suffering is part of the material world that we are within. There is nothing Good about it and nothing Good comes from it. The only lessons that suffering teaches is that it is a bad thing and is to be avoided. You cannot take any lesson from innocent Children that have been half blown up. Nothing is Worth such a lesson. There is nothing Good about it, there is no perfection anywhere within it. Roses that drip blood are not beautiful, nor perfect. You cannot take lessons from people who have been Raped, tortured, tormented and broken. There is nothing that can justify it. Lessons as a reason for suffering is not even an argument. The only time that MILD suffering can be any benefit is when it is humbling (.i.e. reduces the ego) and helps one have empathy towards those who have been burned through suffering. There is only one argument that I have come up with that I have wrestled with regarding the worth of suffering. The argument is that this imperfect creation allows Love to be created or expressed. As I said it is just an argument, the only one I can see as even something to even consider, I have other beliefs personally that invalidate the argument. I have thought and meditated on this issue with and without drugs for many years, every single day and I will continue to do so. Even then you need to hold that most Divine Love in one hand and at the same time in the other hand you need to hold the screaming, bloody, terrible, ugly suffering of the one who suffers the most in this creation and then you can come to a decision as to the worth of suffering, even as a by-product of an imperfect world. Do it, hold them up, visual them both, feel them both, meditate on it, think about it carefully in every state of mind. If Love exists beyond creation, beyond the universe, beyond any energy as I believe it does, then that argument also falls to bits and then Divine Love exists pure and untainted by the suffering of creation.

[quote:f94c0ca193]Yes the suffering is about to be over. If you don't see it coming then I can't help you.[/quote:f94c0ca193] Maybe I'm misunderstanding this. You believe that suffering is necessary, yet it will soon be over. If all suffering ceases then isn't that a problem for your idea that we need it ?

When you have learned to read fast and good you don't need to learn it again. If you have never suffered how can you now if someone is suffering.