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Extracting DMT with ethanol, vinegar and sodium carbonate Options
 
endlessness
#1 Posted : 3/6/2012 5:02:54 PM

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I just did some test extraction recently to see the viability of this method. It's just one more idea into developing teks with different household chemicals. It isnt supposed to substitute other teks, just checking out another option. The more methods we have to extract (and the more varied plant sources) the better. They cant hold us down Cool

Preliminary results seem good, but analysis will be done in the next couple of weeks.

Here's the sum up:

-Mix Mimosa powder with excess sodium carbonate, add water to make a paste, spread it in a wide dish and let it dry.
-3x pulls with 95% ethanol, filter the pulls
- Evaporate the ethanol
- Redissolved reddish/brownish wax in warm white vinegar, filter it.
- Mix the vinegar with excess sodium carb, spread it on a plate and let it dry
- Pull with ethanol again, filter, evap

This could for sure be cleaned up further by repeating the redisolution in vinegar, basing and repulling, (or with any number of classic clean ups like re-x with other solvents, etc, but the idea here is to use these limited chemicals). Ill leave the clean up for a later date when I have time.


I got a product that is yellowish waxy crystals with some darker parts, strongly smells of DMT. I vapped 10mg and its definitely DMT and active, but there is most definitely something else in there (plant oils? What else?) because I got a too large yield (5% or so).

This will be analysed by GC-MS and TLC in the near future, results will be posted.

That was a test extraction with around 25g to see if it works, and it seems it does indeed.. So if you have nothing but high proof ethanol, vinegar and sodium carbonate (or bicarb, which you can turn into carbonate), you can still get some DMT.

Here's the picture of the product:


PS: Ethanol used was drinkable grain ethanol.. Do not use denatured ethanol as it has unwanted substances that may be toxic.
endlessness attached the following image(s):
alcohol.JPG (405kb) downloaded 5,576 time(s).
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
alert
#2 Posted : 3/6/2012 5:18:41 PM
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Nice! The quality isn't bad considering the materials used. Cool experiment.
 
concombres
#3 Posted : 3/6/2012 10:02:11 PM

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In theory, this method should work well with phalaris grass with an added defatting step correct?
& could a high proof drinking alcohol be used considering in many places alcohol past a certain purity is illegal and/or extremely hard to come by?
 
endlessness
#4 Posted : 3/6/2012 10:12:53 PM

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alert wrote:
Nice! The quality isn't bad considering the materials used. Cool experiment.


Thanks for the interest Smile At first sight it seems quite ok quality, but of course its hard to say until analysis is done. In any case notice I did only one round of the process, Im sure that redissolving in vinegar, filtering, rebasing, repulling and reevaporating would yield a significant cleaner product.


Tryptamine420 wrote:
In theory, this method should work well with phalaris grass with an added defatting step correct?


What would you defat with?

And also, gramine and hordenine, according to merck index, are very soluble in ethanol, and we can suppose other alkaloids such as potentially toxic gramine alkaloids will too... For phalaris extraction I would use room temperature limonene as a solvent, such as in BLAB/Q21/Amorfati teks... Or naphtha if you dont mind using that.

Edit, regarding drinking alcohol, what im using is drinking alcohol, but I guess you mean something like vodka or similar? Maybe you could dry it as much as possible with magnesium sulphate and try to use that.. Its worth a try with a small amount of mimosa at least Smile
 
Hyperdimensional Cuttlefish
#5 Posted : 3/6/2012 11:53:09 PM

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I like the idea of this tek a lot. Been waiting for those with more chem experience to weigh in on it. Thanks for your efforts endlessness
All these posts are on behalf of Stimpy, my yellow bullhead. He is an adventurous fish, and I feel his exploits are worth sharing...so much so, I occasionally forget that HE is the one who does these things. Sometimes I get caught in the moment and write of his experiences in the first person; this is a mistake, for I am an upstanding citizen who never does wrong. Stimpy is the degenerate.
 
Doodazzle
#6 Posted : 3/7/2012 10:58:22 PM

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Thank you endlessness.

This is very important work! Amor fati and q21 have given us fine teks that avoid petroleum products....now we definately could use a workable tek or two that uses ethanol as the solvant--for obvious reasons (looming police state, major ecological crises).

This one sounds almost too simple and good to be true...looking forward to a bioassay of higher dose.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." Albert Einstein

I appreciate your perspective.


 
PureMan
#7 Posted : 3/9/2012 12:04:37 AM

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Would it work to use isopropyl?
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 3/9/2012 9:51:05 PM

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I would suspect so.. Its worth a try if thats what you have around, with a small amount first.
 
SKA
#9 Posted : 3/11/2012 3:29:58 AM
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This is excellent!
Is "Washing Soda" sold in supermarkets pure Sodium Carbonate? Have to check.
Using this extraction method, could you use NaOH instead of Sodium Carbonate?

 
jamie
#10 Posted : 3/11/2012 3:39:15 AM

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Cloud wrote:
Would it work to use isopropyl?


Yes you can I think. I have done something similar with iso a few years ago as my first extraction on mimosa. Does pull some more oils but still easily pure enough for breakthroughs.

I boiled the rootbark in vinegar and water though first..and then evaporated the tea, scraped it up and mixed with sodium carb and pulled with iso..filtered out the stuff that would not dissolve and let it dry..then dissolved in iso again and filtered..works for changa.

"if you're worried if you're loved, you need therapy..if you're ready to be light even though everyone hates you, you're ready for yoga"
- David Deida
 
flickedbic
#11 Posted : 3/12/2012 1:57:47 AM

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Superb work endlessness. Kudos to you. And a pretty picture Smile

How long were the ethanol pulls, and was there any heat or agitation involved?

Also, once the DMT acetate is freebased, is it still hydroscopic?

In his thread "Acetates, the solution to all needs DMT" - https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=10674 , q21q21 Said
Quote:
SWIM's calculations and practical tests suggest each ml (of 5% vinegar) can convert ~150mg of DMT(...) SWIM's tests also suggest that at 95-99% of the alkaloids pulled by 5% vinegar are DMT related compounds.)


He recommends evaporating the vinegar with heat breaking acetate bonds to yield a freebase, saying
Quote:
the acetates are evaporated off since the flash point of acetic acid is 39C. The process leaves the freebase behind(...)
and
Quote:
the vinegar could also be placed in a container with some herbs and evaporated indirectly over simmering/boiling water for enhanced-leaf for changa(...) though it would probably be easier just to melt the goo into the herb later(...) used in a tincture by dissolving the product in a water/vinegar mix (1:4 vinegar to water has worked for SWIM) which can be used as an ingredient for oral pharmahuasca (4a) or sublingual lingahuasca (5a)


Others claim this method of freebase conversion (heat assisted evaporation) leads to superior yields.

As to what all else is in there; we've just gotta figure out what all in MHRB is soluble in Ethanol, and vinegar (which supposedly pulls around 97% DMT related compounds, above).

Quote:
MHRB contains the following:

this is all translated from german.. it might have a slightly different name in english.

in the bark there were found more than one Triterpene-Saponines (Mimonoside A, B and C)
it also contains the following Steroidsaponines (3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-campesterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-stigmasterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-ß-sitosterol)

these are all active.

it also contains Luperol, Campesterol, Stigmasterol and ß-sitosterol

the bark also contains massive amounts of Calciumoxalat crystals and a lot of starch and tannins.

the following alkaloids were found: N,N-DMT, 5-Hydroxytriptamine and ß-carbolines

on top of this a new "chalcone" was found. it was named after the maya god Kukulcan: Kukulkanine


here's a write up of all the differnt stuff which the bark contains:

- Triterpene-Saponines (Mimonosides A, B and C)
- Steroidsaponines (3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-campesterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-stigmasterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-ß-sitosterol)
- Luperol
- Campesterol
- Stigmasterol
- ß-sitosterol
- N,N-DMT
- 5-Hydroxytriptamine
- ß-carbolines
- Kukulkanine
- a lot of starch and tannins

my source for this is the "Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants" by Christian Rätsch (german 4th edition from 1999)
-lorax

In the thread lorax started with the info above, Noman chimed in saying
Quote:
...on the non-scientific side, my friend has been experimenting with aya analogs using mimosa extracts of varying degrees of purity.
Taken with extracted harmala, he has found that a simple methanol extract gives a deep, long trip - ecstatic and euphoric, while pure crystalline DMT is more like an hour long smoked dose, fast and intense with an abrupt drop off.


Endlessness, you agreed with burnt when he said Jungle spice dissolves in alcohol, and it looks soluble in vinegar as well* so there is probably jungle in that there spice.

I read that tannins are soluble in both alcohol and vinegar; so that is probably a portion of your final product as well. A first step of washing the MHRB in an acetone defat step to remove the tannins might mean a more pure spice. This may slightly lower the amount of jungle spice in the final result, as I think the jungle spice may be slightly soluble in acetone.

I was also thinking about something and then read it here, what do you think:
Quote:
(In mimosa) DMT is present as(...) DMT tannate(...) most root barks high in tannins contain alkaloids as tannate salts. I don’t think you can freebase a tannate salt using (bases weaker than) sodium hydroxide.

You'd likely need to acidify your bark first with a stronger acid than tannic acid, so that you create an alkaloid salt that sodium carbonate can freebase. If you soaked the bark in vinegar first, that would decompose DMT tannate into DMT acetate and tannic acid. Then sodium carbonate will have no problem freebasing the DMT acetate.
-JanissaryJames, https://mycotopia.net/fo...ek-no-use-lye-read.html

I've also read somewhere on this forum "that dmt tannate is not as soluble in alcohol as is dmt freebase" and so doing the vinegar soak before basifying and pulling may increase potency of the final yield.

Blessings.

*
Quote:
(Step 2: Salting out the un-precipitated alkaloids from the yellow naptha with vinegar
Yield: 30mg jungle DMT
-q21q21, "Don't evaporate your solvents - Avoid grossness in your spice!" - https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=13975
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.

Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Without prejudice.
 
mew
#12 Posted : 3/15/2012 9:30:07 PM

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can one use mgs04 on 151 (thats as strong as everclear here is anyway) filter solids then use this instead of purchased high grade ethanol?

furthermore is it edible without laxitive effects?
 
endlessness
#13 Posted : 3/16/2012 10:17:03 AM

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flickedbic wrote:
Superb work endlessness. Kudos to you. And a pretty picture Smile

How long were the ethanol pulls, and was there any heat or agitation involved?

Also, once the DMT acetate is freebased, is it still hydroscopic?


Thanks! The ethanol pulls were maybe an hour long, i dont remember exactly. No heat, occasional shaking everytime I passed by the jar. In the way I made the freebasing of the acetate, it hard to say if its still hygroscopic because the sodium carbonate excess absorbs any moisture..

flickedbic wrote:


In his thread "Acetates, the solution to all needs DMT" - https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=10674 , q21q21 Said
Quote:
SWIM's calculations and practical tests suggest each ml (of 5% vinegar) can convert ~150mg of DMT(...) SWIM's tests also suggest that at 95-99% of the alkaloids pulled by 5% vinegar are DMT related compounds.)


He recommends evaporating the vinegar with heat breaking acetate bonds to yield a freebase, saying
Quote:
the acetates are evaporated off since the flash point of acetic acid is 39C. The process leaves the freebase behind(...)
and
Quote:
the vinegar could also be placed in a container with some herbs and evaporated indirectly over simmering/boiling water for enhanced-leaf for changa(...) though it would probably be easier just to melt the goo into the herb later(...) used in a tincture by dissolving the product in a water/vinegar mix (1:4 vinegar to water has worked for SWIM) which can be used as an ingredient for oral pharmahuasca (4a) or sublingual lingahuasca (5a)


Others claim this method of freebase conversion (heat assisted evaporation) leads to superior yields.


The problem with this method is that its based on theory that the acetate evaporates off, which im not sure if its proven. Also, often vinegar has other impurities that arent just acetic acid and that may not evaporate off. Amor Fati has extensively worked with this method and in the end he decided to stop because he started feeling somehow sick from the effects of smoking this converted acetate by boiling off. He felt there was a lingering taste that didnt feel healthy (which I guess it either shows not all acetic acid is boiling off, or something else in vinegar remains). Personally I tried this method once and it still smelled somewhat vinegary (or at least not freebase-like) even after a long time. So I opted for the other technique

As to what all else is in there; we've just gotta figure out what all in MHRB is soluble in Ethanol, and vinegar (which supposedly pulls around 97% DMT related compounds, above).

flickedbic wrote:

MHRB contains the following:

this is all translated from german.. it might have a slightly different name in english.

in the bark there were found more than one Triterpene-Saponines (Mimonoside A, B and C)
it also contains the following Steroidsaponines (3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-campesterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-stigmasterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-ß-sitosterol)

these are all active.

it also contains Luperol, Campesterol, Stigmasterol and ß-sitosterol

the bark also contains massive amounts of Calciumoxalat crystals and a lot of starch and tannins.

the following alkaloids were found: N,N-DMT, 5-Hydroxytriptamine and ß-carbolines

on top of this a new "chalcone" was found. it was named after the maya god Kukulcan: Kukulkanine


here's a write up of all the differnt stuff which the bark contains:

- Triterpene-Saponines (Mimonosides A, B and C)
- Steroidsaponines (3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-campesterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-stigmasterol, 3-O-ß-D-glucopyranosyl-ß-sitosterol)
- Luperol
- Campesterol
- Stigmasterol
- ß-sitosterol
- N,N-DMT
- 5-Hydroxytriptamine
- ß-carbolines
- Kukulkanine
- a lot of starch and tannins

my source for this is the "Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants" by Christian Rätsch (german 4th edition from 1999)


hmmm, thanks for this, I have the encyclopedia in english version (2005 maybe?), I will check if it still says the same.. The problem with Christian Ratsch is that there's some dubious and/or badly referenced material in the encyclopedia, so unless he mentions the sources for the info, it's kinda hard to just take what he says at face value. Thanks for pointing it out though, I will certainly check it out and compare with results of my analysis.

flickedbic wrote:

In the thread lorax started with the info above, Noman chimed in saying...on the non-scientific side, my friend has been experimenting with aya analogs using mimosa extracts of varying degrees of purity.
Taken with extracted harmala, he has found that a simple methanol extract gives a deep, long trip - ecstatic and euphoric, while pure crystalline DMT is more like an hour long smoked dose, fast and intense with an abrupt drop off.


Thats interesting and I will keep this in mind, though of course if the person knew they were consuming a different product, its hard to know how much is self-suggestion and how much is pharmacology and different alkaloid profile at work.

flickedbic wrote:

Endlessness, you agreed with burnt when he said Jungle spice dissolves in alcohol, and it looks soluble in vinegar as well* so there is probably jungle in that there spice.


Yeah, jungle is mostly DMT with a small amount of other alkaloids, which I think might indeed also be there. Im curious as to what analysis will show. It might take around 2-3 weeks for GC-MS and a couple of months for LC-MS work.

flickedbic wrote:

I read that tannins are soluble in both alcohol and vinegar; so that is probably a portion of your final product as well. A first step of washing the MHRB in an acetone defat step to remove the tannins might mean a more pure spice. This may slightly lower the amount of jungle spice in the final result, as I think the jungle spice may be slightly soluble in acetone.


Possibly but I think using sodium carbonate would change this, im not sure if tannins would remain. We need someone more chem-savy to let us know.

flickedbic wrote:

I was also thinking about something and then read it here, what do you think: "(In mimosa) DMT is present as(...) DMT tannate(...) most root barks high in tannins contain alkaloids as tannate salts. I don’t think you can freebase a tannate salt using (bases weaker than) sodium hydroxide.

You'd likely need to acidify your bark first with a stronger acid than tannic acid, so that you create an alkaloid salt that sodium carbonate can freebase. If you soaked the bark in vinegar first, that would decompose DMT tannate into DMT acetate and tannic acid. Then sodium carbonate will have no problem freebasing the DMT acetate."
-JanissaryJames, https://mycotopia.net/fo...ek-no-use-lye-read.html

I've also read somewhere on this forum "that dmt tannate is not as soluble in alcohol as is dmt freebase" and so doing the vinegar soak before basifying and pulling may increase potency of the final yield.


Im not sure of this chemical reasoning. I would have imagined sodium carb paste would have freebased all DMT and made it soluble in ethanol. Maybe someone more chem savvy can give their feedback

mew wrote:

can one use mgs04 on 151 (thats as strong as everclear here is anyway) filter solids then use this instead of purchased high grade ethanol?

furthermore is it edible without laxitive effects?


Im not sure how effective magnesium sulphate is for drying wet ethanol. I can imagine it will take some of the water and then you can decant away from the wet MgSO4, but I dont know if any remaining water will stay and if this remaining water might even have some of the MgSO4 dissolved in it, which would end up in your final product. In any case, lets say, even if you dont dry it, I think it will still work, with the difference that your final product will always carry some sodium carbonate and some sodium acetate or other water-soluble salts formed in the freebasing process. Then you could theoretically use some water to dissolve the sodium carb and other salts and leave the dmt freebase behind (or use some dry acetone or another solvent to pick dmt and leave those salts behind).
 
flickedbic
#14 Posted : 3/17/2012 9:31:57 PM

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Thank you so much for your replies; I just have one more question before I fade into the background: might this tek work for Cebil seeds as well? Indicators point to yes; but I imagine there's only one way to find out if relatively pure bufo-spice might be had this way as well...

Oh how the simple things are the most exciting. The floor is (all of) yours.

Blessings.
All readable matter in the above post is ficticious.

Any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Without prejudice.
 
SKA
#15 Posted : 4/10/2012 3:06:09 PM
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Can anyone here still tell me if this method would work just as well
if instead of Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Hydroxide is used as a base?

And Endlessness;
Have you already tried determining a break-through dose of this
Ethanol-Vinegar MHRB extract? Would be interresting to know.

Also, after you've cleaned the extract up further, by redissolving
in vinegar, basing & pulling with Ethanol several times more,
do report back here and let us know if the cleaned up extract
is significantly more potent than the initial, impure extract.
 
endlessness
#16 Posted : 4/10/2012 3:10:25 PM

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SKA, unfortunately I only did the extraction with a test amount, not enough to play around and clean up/bioassay too much...

GC-MS results show it to be basically DMT with very little else, so thats a victory.. But from GC-MS I cant see if there's sodium carbonate excess, which im pretty sure there is, but that is easy to clean up (dry acetone/IPA to dissolve DMT and not sodium carb, or dilute sodium carb wash to pick up sodium carb and leave DMT behind).

Do experiment if you can, and let us know Smile


flickedbic, yeah but I doubt you'll get anywhere near pure bufo with this, bufo is a bit trickier to clean up. Which doesnt mean it wont be usable, people have been smoking crude bufo extractions (doing something similar but with dry IPA instead of ethanol) with success.
 
SKA
#17 Posted : 4/12/2012 11:36:11 AM
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Thanks endlessness, this method is invaluable.
Especially since I've noticed that obtaining Di ethyl Ether
is becomming more difficult where I live.
Also Ether is quite pricy.
Ethanol can quite easily be home-brewed and destilled.

I'm affraid an expansion of the war-on-drugs is the reason that,
first some years ago the Drug-stores suddenly stopped selling
the 100 ml Di-ethyl Ether-bottles they used to sell and then
maybe 2 years later the Holland (or Belgium?)-based online drugstore
that used to sell 1 liter bottles of Di-ethyl Ether also suddenly
removed it from it's webshop-products.

So this Ethanol, Sodium Carbonate & Vinegar-extraction method came
just in time. SWIM's next MHRB-extraction will defenitely be done
using this new method.

 
PlainCoil
#18 Posted : 11/6/2012 7:13:10 AM

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Nice. Def purer than SWIM's spice made the same way but with IPA.
 
keleblin
#19 Posted : 9/6/2013 10:51:55 PM

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Great work Endless! As soon as I finish converting some sodium bicarbonate to carbonate, I'll be giving this a shot. Big grin

How much ethanol did you use per pull?
 
pau
#20 Posted : 9/6/2013 11:33:27 PM

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Before I try, can anyone chime in on how this tek might go using acacia?
WHOA!
 
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