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No MAOI: Complexing DMT freebase for sublingual administration Options
 
Nature Boy
#1 Posted : 2/20/2012 10:20:15 PM

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Hi, all:

I read numerous journal articles and papers on using HPBCD to complex vitamins, steroids, antimetabolites and antibiotics following which I successfully complexed 25i-NBOMe and laid it on blotter at precisely 550 mcg / tab. It was a successful venture and an amazing experience.

It subsequently occurred to me that the only reason MAOI's are needed in conjunction with DMT fumarate or DMT freebase taken ORALLY, is to get around the inhibition in the gut. After all, an MAOI is completely unnecessary when vaporized, administered IV, or even rectally. I then began to consider a sublingual ROI for DMT freebase using HPBCD complexed DMT - and >>NO<< MAOI.

One MAJOR question remains before an attempt can be made. Shockingly few molecules of DMT are probably required for detectable effects. Assuming for the moment that the proposed experiment is a rousing success at introducing DMT into the bloodstream...HOW MUCH COMPLEXED DMT SHOULD CONSTITUTE A FIRST TEST DOSE??? 1 milligram? 10 milligrams??? I have a goodly supply of both materials. I'm scared to try for fear of success without some opinions on a starting dosage attempt, being a conservative psychonaut and a bit of a coward. The complexed DMT would be in ~ 1/2 cc of distilled water.

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Nature Boy
#2 Posted : 2/22/2012 2:06:28 AM

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Wow. 62 views and no opinions? I guess I'll have to go to the study performed by Rick Strassman and prepare a solution for sublibgual administration of 2/3 of his lowest mg/Kg IV dose as a starting point. If the complexing with HPBCD works as well for DMT freebase as it does for 25i-NBOMe freebase, then this definitely opens the door for a parenteral route of administration WITHOUT the need of an MAOI. How excellent would THAT be?!

Guess since I proposed the experiment, I'll have to be the guinea pig. Stay tuned, boys and girls.

I REALLY thought this idea would generate a whole lot more excitement. <shrug>

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soulfood
#3 Posted : 2/22/2012 2:37:00 AM

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MAO is found all over the body, not just in the gut.

To say it's not necassary for other forms of administration depends very much so on what kind of experience you are trying to acheive as consuming an inhibitor will prolong effects of DMT in any ROA.

However as DMT is passable via insufflation, it's very possible that sublingual method could work. For dosage I would follow that of insufflation in theory as the delivery mechanism is very similar, though I should add I have zero knowledge on the effects of HPBCD.
 
InneffableThings
#4 Posted : 2/22/2012 5:20:22 AM

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Don't mistake lack of response for lack of excitement.

I'm quite excited at this venture, but do not have the knowledge to contribute to the conversation, and so remain quiet. However I eagerly (greedily?) await the results Smile


edit: Although in retrospect, the complication of maoi's potentially assists maintaining accessibility, so perhaps some care is needed.
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Observant
#5 Posted : 2/22/2012 5:21:04 AM

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I'm interested Smile
I say start with 10mg worth of freebase - ( sub-treshold via snorting route) -
please tell us if you are succesful Smile


you know this? https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=10624
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he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
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Nature Boy
#6 Posted : 2/23/2012 3:07:13 AM

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Observant wrote:
I'm interested Smile
I say start with 10mg worth of freebase - ( sub-treshold via snorting route) -
please tell us if you are succesful Smile


Gonna try for 20 mg of complexed freebase. Maybe as soon as this week-end. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am it will work. Only one way to know for sure.

N.B.
 
jamie
#7 Posted : 2/23/2012 3:14:54 AM

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there is mao is the mouth and gums...

I dont think sublingual and snuffing can really be compared.

Snuffing really works. Sublingual only worked for me with harmalas. I have put in under my tounge before to see and nothing happened. With harmalas it works though.

Might work for you..
 
damon
#8 Posted : 2/23/2012 10:36:41 PM

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I'm very interested. I would also be interested in including some harmalas as well. It sounds promising. 20mg would be a good place to start, but maybe have two or three more doses ready in case you get no results. If it works, you should know fairly quickly.

Good luck!

Damon
 
Infundibulum
#9 Posted : 2/23/2012 11:49:05 PM

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Nature Boy wrote:
I read numerous journal articles and papers on using HPBCD to complex vitamins, steroids, antimetabolites and antibiotics following which I successfully complexed 25i-NBOMe and laid it on blotter at precisely 550 mcg / tab. It was a successful venture and an amazing experience.

What is HPBCD and 25i-NBOME?

I guess you're trying to do something, but without explaining your rationale and your tools with at least layman's terms, you're not gonna get much responses. To me your OP does not make much sense.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
Nature Boy
#10 Posted : 2/24/2012 11:52:15 PM

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Infundibulum wrote:

I guess you're trying to do something, but without explaining your rationale and your tools with at least layman's terms, you're not gonna get much responses. To me your OP does not make much sense.


Seriously??? Wow. I'm surprised you guys aren't up on all this. OK...here goes. HPbCD = hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin. It is a type of sugar, with a VERY particular circular shape,; chains of the sugar form a "tunnel" which is polar outside and non-polar inside. Medicines which are poorly absorbable are "complexed" with HPbCD in medicine all the time. Molecules of vitamins, antimetabolites, antibiotics, and steroids which are entirely unabsorbable can move INSIDE the tunnel of sugar like a penis into a vagina. The sugar is EASILY absorbed, and the previously undeliverable, non-absorbable medicine is delivered.

25i-NBOMe is a recent, currently LEGAL, very hot "research chemical" and VERY potent mescaline-analog hallucinogen (almost as potent as LSD) which is extremely poorly absorbable. Complexed with HPbCD it is AMAZINGLY absorbable. I laid it on blotter at 550 ug/hit, took 1/2 tab and tripped BALLS for 12 hours. My trip report is on the Shroomery.

NOW I'm wondering if the same effect (sublingual and/or buccal absorption) can be obtained by complexing DMT freebase or the fumarate salt. Imagine a 1000 fold increase in the speed of absorption of DMT across the oral mucosa. THAT is why I'm excited.

Thoughts?

N.B.
 
benzyme
#11 Posted : 2/25/2012 1:34:59 AM

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I think once the sugar is hydrolyzed in the gut, MAO will still metabolize the dmt.
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Nature Boy
#12 Posted : 2/25/2012 12:41:36 PM

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Nature Boy wrote:
benzyme wrote:
I think once the sugar is hydrolyzed in the gut, MAO will still metabolize the dmt.


WHAT GUT?????? Mucosal absorption in the MOUTH, i.e. sublingual absorption!!! You don't swallow it, you put it under your tongue or swish a tiny volume in the cheek pocket. It goes directly into your bloodstream without ever coming close to "the gut". Sheesh. Rolling eyes

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benzyme
#13 Posted : 2/25/2012 1:57:50 PM

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lol..ok
but like jamie inferred, MAO is ubiquitous in [epithelial] cells,
and the other molecules you listed don't require an MAOI.
so have you tried this method yet?

i sense a 'FAIL' Laughing
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MySmelf
#14 Posted : 2/25/2012 4:35:14 PM

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benzyme wrote:
lol..ok
but like jamie inferred, MAO is ubiquitous in [epithelial] cells,
and the other molecules you listed don't require an MAOI.
so have you tried this method yet?

i sense a 'FAIL' Laughing


I agree with this from my own experience.
I made a solution of DMT HCl with 82mg DMT freebase dissolved in 1.3mL of dilute HCl and tested it both nasally and under the tongue. 8 drops in the nose gave a mild +1 experience that lasted almost 1 1/2 hours but 16 drops under the tongue was soo weak it could've just been placebo.
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Al Dimentiz
#15 Posted : 2/25/2012 10:16:44 PM

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@Nature Boy... Don't give up on your experiments and thank you for being your own guinea pig.

I'll keep and eye on this threat for the outcome, and don't forget that if you somehow manage to make this work I would love you to write your tech step by step on layman terms.

Good luck
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billydgator
#16 Posted : 3/13/2012 11:00:38 PM

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Ive also been interested in which compounds can be complexed with cyclodextrins and become active bucally/orally. This idea first crossed my mind when my friend was complexing 25 as well, but instead of 9:1 HPBCD:25, it was 5:1, allowing each blotter to absorb roughly 1mg of the active ingredient.
This could be huge, i can see dmt blotters already becoming the biggest rage =) Only the difference with dmt and 25i, we know dmt is safe! =D
 
reosed
#17 Posted : 3/28/2012 2:05:40 AM
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So have you gotten around to trying this yet? Id like to know how it goes.
 
astralspice
#18 Posted : 3/28/2012 5:19:18 AM

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''penis entering a vagina'' = laymans Smile
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billydgator
#19 Posted : 4/19/2012 2:55:22 AM

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no results here eh? Has anyone tried complexed DMT buccaly?
 
MMPA
#20 Posted : 8/27/2012 7:58:42 PM

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That actually sounds like a smart idea. What you said makes sense. In the same way that orally -inactive 25I-NBOMe become active when complexed, I think DMT complexed might just work. Unless the MAO's are present throughout the body and not mainly in the stomach, then it wouldn't help to complex it. The difference between complexing DMT and 25I-NBOMe:
-25I-NBOMe:
Absorbtion Problem: Yes
MAO Interaction Problem: No
-DMT:
Absorption Problem: No
MAO Activity Problem: Yes
 
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