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The Phalaris Analysis Thread Options
 
fastfred
#41 Posted : 6/30/2013 5:34:22 AM
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I also can't seem to find much info on the plants going to seed.

Are they sensitive to the light cycle or do they just go to seed after reaching maturity regardless?

My plants seem to be growing well and do show a fair amount of morphological differences already.

Any speculations on hybridizing this with P. aquatica or other P. species?

What morphologies should I look for? Obviously good spreading is important, but right now I'm mostly seeing tall, thin, weaker looking single blades and two samples producing more branching blades. Conditions haven't been quite identical yet, but hopefully I've got that worked out now.

The two lower germination rate samples seem to be producing more branching, so I'm wondering about that too now.


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DonnieDarkoo
#42 Posted : 7/1/2013 8:22:07 AM
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Hello everyone, I am just a noobie, so correct me if I am wrong. I was thinking how to separate NN - DMT from the mixture of alkaloids you get while extracting from Phalaris. I checked couple of forums yesterday and the method, that seemed quite useful was sublimation at certain temperature (wiki varies from 83 - 160 degrees of Celsius). The sublimation temp of NN - DMT is much more lower than the temp of other alkaloids (5 Meo DMT, Hornedine, Gramine), so it could purify the final product. What do you think about it? Smile
 
fastfred
#43 Posted : 7/6/2013 7:01:39 AM
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Sounds worth trying, but you'd basically be trying to vaporize DMT out of a mix of bio-gunk. I think you'd get quite a lot of smoke and a dirty product if anything at all.

Should be cleaner that what you started with if it works, but there's far easier methods available. I'm not really sure it's needed anyways.


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endlessness
#44 Posted : 7/6/2013 2:43:27 PM

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Problem is there is no data out there of the boiling point of DMT at atmospheric pressure.

I think using naphtha or doing a couple of cold limonene runs, or using preparative TLC or column chromatography, are better bets for this.
 
fastfred
#45 Posted : 8/8/2013 12:34:17 PM
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Endlessness, I took the liberty of editing your DMT:Gramine reagent tests, since it seemed like a great reference. Figured I'd share it as long as that's OK with you.

Can you suggest the best way to do this test, starting from fresh material? I have some P-DMAB on hand, just don't know how much extraction is required for decent results. It would be nice if it could be done on a fresh drop of juice, or with a single pull.

Looks like Mandelin is probably the way to go though...


fastfred attached the following image(s):
Reagents-DMT-Gramine.jpg (43kb) downloaded 851 time(s).
 
endlessness
#46 Posted : 8/8/2013 1:45:32 PM

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Hey FF.


Cool, no problem putting it here, thanks for that!

I did those tests with pure gramine and dmt, not with grass samples. If I was to do with grass samples, I'd probably grind it, mix with a base, pull with ethanol/IPA and evap that, and then test whatever goo is left from this crude soak.. Just a little bit should be enough.

Do note that p-dmab-ts is different than p-dmab/ehrlich. The first one takes ferric chloride in it's composition, and color changes are different. Yeah mandelin looks good for the gramine case, and marquis looks pretty ok too.
 
Kohan
#47 Posted : 9/3/2013 8:34:04 PM
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jamie wrote:
I dont think it is brachystachys in that picture. It looks like it is branching in some spots which I never saw my brachys do. I could be wrong though. I think brachys just shoots up one single leaf blade per seed and thats it.


My indoors brachystachys will branch more leaf blades from the base if i keep them from making seeds, likely constant light or even 18\6 pattern. But after all i've never worked with outdoors so what im saying doesn't quite count Smile

Keep on loving !
 
jamie
#48 Posted : 9/3/2013 11:39:37 PM

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weird..indoor brachys did not even work for me. I should try again maybe but I have been having so much more success with aquatica that I just gave up on brachystachys.
 
lifebinder
#49 Posted : 6/15/2014 1:57:08 PM

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I hope this is the right place for my post but I will be harvesting massive amounts of P.Arundiniceae(wild from the nearby park Big grin ) and I took a look at this post and the thing that got my eye was Justin Case's report saying that after the grass is cut the enzymes transmute the NN into 5 MeO ... so what can you guys suggest me so I can stop it(It's not that fatal if I don't get N,N ,5MeO is still a nice tryptamine Smile ) ? Since the park isn't really close to my place I cannot put it in the fridge right away,tho I can bring a bucket with methanol with me and place the harvested material in it..
 
endlessness
#50 Posted : 6/15/2014 5:21:27 PM

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lifebinder, yeah it seems that conversion is happening during drying in some cases according to justin case/trout, but it most definitely doesn't always happen, some phalaris will just not have any 5-meo-dmt no matter how long it takes to dry.

I'm not sure how fast that conversion happens, but unless the park was hours and hours away from your home, I doubt it would be a problem to harvest and come home and then proceed to extract it, whether by pre-soaking in methanol (careful its toxic, be sure to fully evaporate it later before proceeding on purifying the crude extract resulting in its evap, and careful with methanol fumes as it evaps do it outside and dont breathe it), or any other way.

Be well!
 
lifebinder
#51 Posted : 6/15/2014 6:22:34 PM

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endlessness wrote:
lifebinder, yeah it seems that conversion is happening during drying in some cases according to justin case/trout, but it most definitely doesn't always happen, some phalaris will just not have any 5-meo-dmt no matter how long it takes to dry.

I'm not sure how fast that conversion happens, but unless the park was hours and hours away from your home, I doubt it would be a problem to harvest and come home and then proceed to extract it, whether by pre-soaking in methanol (careful its toxic, be sure to fully evaporate it later before proceeding on purifying the crude extract resulting in its evap, and careful with methanol fumes as it evaps do it outside and dont breathe it), or any other way.

Be well!

^_^ Thanks for the response,to be honest it's a 10 min walk to my house I just thought it would have changed it by then (siily me Big grin ) , I will proceed with the extraction right after the harvest and will keep updating the process in a thread Razz . The reagents will include citric acid(should I use vinegar because the one offered at my place is only 5% acetic acid),lye,and pure petroleum ether (which is Naphtha I believe).
 
Entheogenerator
#52 Posted : 6/15/2014 10:41:10 PM

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The vinegar would be fine. 5% is the standard that I have seen, which most people on the site seem to use.

But I would recommend looking into the methods used in the past by those who have some experience with phalaris. There are several threads about phalaris extraction.
 
lifebinder
#53 Posted : 6/16/2014 12:12:22 PM

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Entheogenerator wrote:
The vinegar would be fine. 5% is the standard that I have seen, which most people on the site seem to use.

But I would recommend looking into the methods used in the past by those who have some experience with phalaris. There are several threads about phalaris extraction.

I think I checked most of the teks,do you have any specific to offer that you think will work good .I will use the one where you boil the chlorophyl liquid and later discard the green mass that would have been built up on the top of the mixture I think it was fourthripley that developed it.
 
pgrass
#54 Posted : 10/5/2014 4:36:21 PM

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I'm very curious about the text provided from "Just in Case"

Quote:
Apparently, enzymatic activity afects the alkaloids both imediately after harvest and during drying. The addition of alcohol during the act of harvesting will stop said enzymatic activity and in the case of Phalaris will ensure highest possible recovery of alkaloid.

I can't figure out the source "Justin Case in Trout SST" could someone elaborate on that?

Does anyone know what enzymes are present in Phalaris Grasses?

Does anyone know which enzymes COULD act on DMT and break it down?

I know that Alkaline Phospotase is present in significant amounts in Psilocybin Mushrooms. Dissolving Psilocybin in Ethanol results in an extract that contains large quantities of Alkaline Phospostase and thus Psilocybin is quickly broken down to Psilocin which oxidizes rapidly. For this reason, Methanol is the preferred alcohol solvent for Psilocybin as Alkaline Phosphotase is not soluble in Methanol.

DMT does not have phosphor group so the example isn't relevant specifically. However, it would be very useful to determine which enzymes are present and/or capable of breaking down various alkaloids. Solubility of enzymes are widely known and this could be used to improve (even simplify) extraction and processing.
 
dreamer042
#55 Posted : 10/5/2014 5:19:29 PM

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For what it's worth my own TLC analysis on wild picked arundinacea showed little difference in alkaloid profile between extracts from fresh and dried grass.

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UpAndDown
#56 Posted : 1/28/2016 11:25:41 AM

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Here is a pdf file for phalaris analysis that i found
 
rild
#57 Posted : 7/18/2016 9:35:25 PM

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Phalaris garden report

Five of the six phalaris grasses in the garden were tested. All were from internet sources. None were harvested following the advice of Festi/Samorini so potency was not what it could have been. All tests but the first were done on a very small sample. Testing was done on a GC (without MS). I do not yet have a standard for gramine (on order) so I can not read gramine levels.

Potencies were all under one percent but four were worth extracting. Three had enough 5 MeO and/or bufotenine to spice up the spice in a way that I very much like.

The DMT in these grasses was partially in the n-oxide form. In some cases over half was n-oxide. Think zinc.

Only one had very low gramine. A tek that removes gramine is required. Hope someone has a suggestion. I will experiment.

Phalaris brachystachys of French origin from seeds is the first chart. Lots of gramine but otherwise very nice. The second DMT spike is n-oxide. With a little less n-oxide, the DMT spike is stretched to the right.

Phalaris brachystachys not of French origin from seeds is the second chart. This would make a nice looking lawn. Except the wild bunnies love it.

Yugo Red from a clone is the third chart. This grows much taller, is harder to harvest and the seeds it produces must not be allowed to fall to the ground and grow.

Big Medicine from a clone is the forth chart. This grows tall, is harder to harvest and the seeds it produces must not be allowed to fall to the ground and grow. It is likely that the grower of these clones had a problem with auto seeding. Seeds from clone only plants are not like the clone version. This is not Big Medicine and not a food for sheep.

AQ1 from clone is the last chart. Seed sources should be about the same. It is easy to harvest, a good DMT source and has very low gramine.

The Big Medicine clone was not Big Medicine. It was just poison. The rest could have been as advertized. I also have a Turkey Red (5 MeO) which will be tested if it recovers from being shipped.
rild attached the following image(s):
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nen888
#58 Posted : 7/19/2016 2:48:44 AM
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thank you for that report rild ..now this is progress! Smile

gramine is not soluble in naphtha.


ps. where are we (the nexus) at with 'Turkey Red' at the moment (test wise)? - this is the 5meo key...
 
Muskogee Herbman
#59 Posted : 7/19/2016 4:04:30 AM

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I've heard another 5meo with Phalaris aquatica v stenoptera.
Quote:
Phalaris aquatica var. stenoptera

(= P. tuberosa var. stenoptera = P. stenoptera)

("Harding-grass", "Holdfast Harding-grass", "Peruvian Wintergrass"Pleased

Introduced cultivar from Australia [This scenario is presented by most. Hortus considers its origin to be unclear.]. Cultivated and naturalized in California and the Pacific Northwest.

Variable amounts. Festi & Samorini 1994 cited Rendig et al. 1970 as finding 135-264 mg of 5-MeO-DMT and

0-60 mg of DMT per ml of expressed juice.

DMT and 5-MeO-DMT are present in foliage [5-MeO-DMT>DMT]. Total indole alkaloid levels hit two peaks of 0.14% in late September and mid November one year but only one peak in one or the other during two other years. In the latter cases; the year with a peak in late September was also around 0.14% while the year with the peak in mid-November was 0.08%. This last year showed some of its lowest values in late September. Their analysis only covered mid September through mid February. Total indolealkylamines were 0.08% or less the rest of the times assayed, with a low around 0.02%. (All values approximate; taken from graphs) Alkaloid levels were found to be markedly different from one month to the next and one year to the next. Rendig et al. 1976.

McComb and coworkers determined the 5-MeO-DMT concentration in Phalaris tuberosa leaves (cv. Hardinggrass) by use of an estimation obtained via UV absorption of the Xanthylium salts formed during the alkaloid's reaction with Xanthydrol.

They reported 0.236% in 7 day old fresh leaves, 0.105% in 9 day old fresh leaves and 0.077% in 21 day old fresh leaves. all figures are % dry weight

They did not evaluate the other components of the leaves in this paper but noted that neither gramine nor hordenine formed colored complexes with Xanthydrol. McComb et al. 1969.

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jamie
#60 Posted : 7/19/2016 5:02:47 AM

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interesting the finding of 5-MeO-DMT in yugo red. I felt like it was in there in my extracts but TLC findings from others found only DMT.
 
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