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The Phalaris Analysis Thread Options
 
endlessness
#1 Posted : 2/17/2012 7:03:43 PM

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Literature & Related links

General info:



Phalaris containing DMT
Phalaris containing 5-MeO-DMT
Phalaris containing bufotenine


Phalaris way of the future thread
- With a lot of info on Phalaris, other alkaloids found in it, growing, extracting, etc.

PDF on processing/extracting phalaris


Phalaris identification thread

Info on Harvesting phalaris and alkaloid content:


Festi & Samorini 1994 - Ayahuasca-like" effects obtained with Italian plants
(Must read! Excellent review of analysis and growth conditions that affect alkaloid content)

FAQ: How to extract from Phalaris
(with info on better solvents and teks, and sum up of conditions that affect alkaloid content from publication above)

Other assorted info:

Justin Case in Trout SST wrote:
Many plants extract better if dried first, others should be extracted fresh. Some, it will depend on what you are after. For example if extracting DMT from Phalaris, it should be preserved in alcohol immediately upon harvest and processed as fresh plant material. BUT, if wanting 5-MeO-DMT phalaris should be allowed to dry first. The total alkaloid yield will be lower if dry plants are used but the relative ratio of 5-MeO-DMT will be proportionally higher. Apparently, enzymatic activity afects the alkaloids both imediately after harvest and during drying. The addition of alcohol during the act of harvesting will stop said enzymatic activity and in the case of Phalaris will ensure highest possible recovery of alkaloid. But even material preserved in alcohol will show loss of alkaloid content so processing should begin as soon as possible


Probably, then, alcohol soak in freezer would be the best way to store phalaris if not extracting straight away after harvesting.

Seed and clone suppliers


Supplier discussion thread 1 ; thread 2; thread 3



Nexus Analysis





Note: The image below does NOT imply Yugo Red has a clean alkaloid profile, since the plant is the same as the image above, it just means that cold limonene pull seems to serve well to separate DMT from other alkaloids, but the overal quantity of DMT after this was very small






Benzyme also analysed Phalarys Brachystachis with a ratio of 9:1 DMT to gramine.


Notes: The other Big Medicine peaks seem to be similar to the other phalaris crude methanol samples, mostly fatty acids and inactive plant material. The caffeine contaminant was not on my part, I re-ran with new grass from samples I had and it still had caffeine, so it must have come from the person that cultivated it. The harmine contam in sample 123 was probably neither on my part. I will re-test this sample in the near future just to make sure. I dont think harmine is in phalaris.

If other peaks are identified, I will post the results here. New phalaris analysis to come in the future.

Also as always, im posting the *.ms files for whoever wants to check the mass spectra themselves (I suggest any chem-expert SHOULD double check my work). All ratios and relative amounts here are approx, meant for general informative purposes. Accurate quantification is significantly more trouble and im just starting with analysis, I need more experience first. Propper absolute quantification, not just approx relative values, might be done in the future, stay tuned

GC-MS details below. In the future LC-MS will also be used, and details also added here.
Quote:
GC-MS analysis was performed in an Agilent 5890 series II gas chromatograph coupled to an 5971A quadrupole mass spectrometer detector (Agilent). The gas chromatograph was fitted with an 6890 auto sampler injector. Samples were injected in split mode into a 12m × 0.2mm i.d., 0.33 µm film thickness 5% phenylmethylsilicone column (ULTRA-2, Agilent Technologies). The oven temperature was programmed at 90ºC during 2min and increased 20ºC/min to 300ºC. Finally was maintained at 300ºC over 4min with a total run time of 14.50min. Insert liners packed with silanized glasswool were used. The injector and the interface were operated at 280 ◦C. Helium was used as carrier gas at a flow rate of 0.48ml/min. The mass spectrometer was operated in electron impact ionization mode at 70 eV

 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
jamie
#2 Posted : 2/17/2012 7:16:06 PM

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Thanks endless..

The harmine in the BC sample I am quite sure was contamination. I was extracting a big batch of rue at the same time so it makes sense that it just got in there somehow. That sample was very late harvest, almost into winter when the grass was already yellowing..either just before or just after the first frosts.
 
endlessness
#3 Posted : 2/17/2012 7:21:40 PM

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That 6-MeO-2-Methyl-Tetrahydro-Beta-Carboline is interesting, I wonder what effects it might have.

Also the 5-MeO-NMT content, I wonder what kind of psychoactive effects it might have. How did bioassay of it feel like?

Maybe hot limo also pulls more gramine, which is one thing we have to test.

I think testing whole phalaris plants is good but I think its also useful if we compare different extraction variables too. Now we need spring/summer to come and some Nexians to start harvesting and keeping samples Pleased
 
jamie
#4 Posted : 2/17/2012 7:26:15 PM

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what is "z" on that graph?
 
endlessness
#5 Posted : 2/17/2012 7:37:57 PM

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I could not identify, and the closest automatic guesses from NIST are under 50%. It seems to possibly be some fatty acid.

Im posting the mass spectra of it in case someone doesnt want to go through the trouble of opening with openchrom, and might help identify.
endlessness attached the following image(s):
Z.jpg (103kb) downloaded 4,870 time(s).
 
endlessness
#6 Posted : 3/2/2012 10:32:29 AM

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Im not sure if this was noticed for those looking at this thread but hot limonene pulls on that wild arundinacea (sample 123) yielded equal amounts of DMT and Gramine, while the room temperature limonene pulls in the Yugo Red (sample 2661) greatly favored the ratio to DMT and only had small amounts of gramine. This is a good indication that, hot limo is much less selective and will pull more of the potentiall toxic alkaloids, while room temperature limonene will nicely pull DMT but only very little gramine.

So for those extracting phalaris, either stay with naphtha/equivalent or use room temperature limonene only.
 
concombres
#7 Posted : 3/23/2012 1:59:32 PM

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correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like the variation in alkaloids in phalaris are either very random or depend highly on the season & region. & possibly the soil type and quality in the area, & may be effected by things like air & soil pollutants (ie. if the specific plants tested were found in an area near a landfill or a particularly dirty river, large highway, etc.).

I would like to test some local phalaris & see exactly what the alkaloid content from plant to plant & season to season is. but first i'll have to put in some research on the testing process.
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 3/23/2012 2:08:03 PM

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If you check out the amazing festi and samorini publication linked in the first post, it goes over how the different variables of growing affect alkaloid content.

Good luck with experimentation! Be sure to let us know!
 
AlbertKLloyd
#9 Posted : 3/24/2012 4:55:15 PM

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Tryptamine420 wrote:
correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like the variation in alkaloids in phalaris are either very random or depend highly on the season & region. & possibly the soil type and quality in the area, & may be effected by things like air & soil pollutants (ie. if the specific plants tested were found in an area near a landfill or a particularly dirty river, large highway, etc.).

I would like to test some local phalaris & see exactly what the alkaloid content from plant to plant & season to season is. but first i'll have to put in some research on the testing process.

My impression from study is this:
DMT dominated phalaris arund. is an example of recessive genetics and is thus rare in the wild.

The majority of variations are nearly all genetic, having virtually nothing to do with soil chemistry or region, however seasonal variation does occur, as well as diurnal variation. Harvests at different times of day have different content.


It is important to realize that the alkaloids are sequestered to the new growth and are found in the tender new leaves and that the majority of the plant does not contain appreciable amounts.

Here is a link to Trouts Aya book online, it has some Phalaris info:
http://www.erowid.org/li...c3_part2_phalaris.shtml
I consider this required reading for anyone interested in Phalaris.
 
quetzalcoatl42
#10 Posted : 4/15/2012 3:04:49 AM

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spectrum analysis,

didnt know anyone here had access to such equipment.

What kind is "yugo red" and does it seem on that graph only or is it actually quite potent when extracted with limo and salted ?
I've heard spice concentrations can vary during daytime, and maybe it's a myth (since I've never seen compelling analysis), I heard sunset is a good time to harvest.

really interesting stuff...

EDIT:
omg, even reading that
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7020159
saddens me, can someone explain, why or whether and how Gramine would be present, or how it could be avoided ? Is there an official LD50 for it ? I found an official CAS 87-52-5, and an MSDS for Gramine.
I'm not much more informed however, except it kind of scares me.
especially looking at my plant:
picture removed
 
endlessness
#11 Posted : 4/15/2012 9:18:04 AM

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The answer to your questions are in this very thread, regarding how to separate gramine, as well as you can check the Way of the Future thread linked in the first post for more info.

Regarding variables that affect alkaloid content, check the first post, there is a publication linked, from Festi and Samorini, which goes over all of this.

As for the exact potency of yugo red, its hard to say because I didnt do quantifying studies, thats more complex, maybe in the future... But I think its a better bet to try to find AQ1/Big Medicine strains instead.
 
quetzalcoatl42
#12 Posted : 4/15/2012 7:12:49 PM

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somehow I get
"You have insufficient rights to download this resource. Contact forum administrator for further details."
When I try to get the
Festi & Samorini 1994 - Ayahuasca-like" effects obtained with Italian plants

Can anything be done about that ?


That did not work... I logged off and on again, still same message. Could it have to do with Tor ?
|
\/
 
endlessness
#13 Posted : 4/15/2012 8:26:14 PM

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It wont work if you click and you're logged off.. Try again being logged in the Nexus. If it doesnt work Ill do something else, but let me know if its working.
 
Cannabinoids
#14 Posted : 6/26/2012 5:30:39 AM

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So is this worth extracting for personal use? or is it to much of a guess on weither or not toxins are in the final product? I have and insane amount of Phalaris around me but no point if I'm just going to get sick off of it or something. Thanks

Canna
 
Parshvik Chintan
#15 Posted : 6/26/2012 9:23:00 PM

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quetzalcoatl42 wrote:
That did not work... I logged off and on again, still same message. Could it have to do with Tor ?

i don't have tor, but i have the same issue.
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endlessness
#16 Posted : 6/26/2012 9:39:23 PM

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I've updated the link to: https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...8a/Festiandsamorini.pdf

It should work now. If not, let me know.

By the way, I acquired some gramine standard and today started to make some solubility tests but I will have to continue next week only. It seems gramine is slightly soluble in limonene at (warm) room temperature, somewhat soluble (more than limonene) in xylene, and very little if at all in naphtha.

I think naphtha is probably a better way to separate gramine from dmt than limonene, unless the FASI way does not precipitate gramine, which I will test soon. Mind you, I did not do actual measurements yet so dont take this as final word, I just tried dissolving some gramine and looked at how much seemed undissolved. I will do proper measurements and all next week or so.


Cannabinoids, I think its worth it trying to extract from phalaris at least to see if you get 'something'. Then we can try to find out what this 'something' is with different tests. Just dont smoke it straight away, come back to us when you have it done. But I think it would be even better to try to extract from a known clone such as AQ1 or big medicine.

Next what im gonna do is find out the color reactions of gramine with different reagents such as marquis, etc, and do the same with different ratios of mixtures with dmt and gramine. This all takes time and work, so be patient with me, its coming slowly but surely Smile
 
endlessness
#17 Posted : 7/10/2012 1:19:43 PM

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Some more info:

Colorimetric

Gramine can be clearly differentiated from DMT using different reagents. Even a mixture of gramine and DMT with lesser amount of gramine is clearly different than just DMT. The two best reagents tested to see if there's gramine are marquis and mandelin.

Marquis Reagent: (crystals, not dissolved)
DMT- starts yellowish, turning to brown and dark brown
Gramine - Turns immediately black, no hint of yellow.
Mixture gramine/DMT - Even a low amount of gramine (10% gramine: 90% DMT) is clearly seen because it turns black, while pure DMT stays at dark brown.

Mandelin Reagent (crystals, not dissolved)
DMT- Yellow
Gramine - Black
Mixture - Has significant black even with low amounts of gramine (10%)

(mixtures gramine and dmt at different ratios)


(just dmt)



Solubility


At 28 degrees celcius, 10mg gramine dissolved in 15ml limonene. At 15c, this dropped to half, so 10mg gramine needed around 30ml limonene to dissolve. At 15c, 10mg DMT dissolved in 5ml limonene, meaning at coldish/room temp it's 6x more soluble in limonene than gramine. This means separation with limonene is not perfect but it's already significant.

Adding FASI to limonene containing gramine turned cloudy but quickly became transparent, with no sign of precipitation in the first hour (didnt have time to let it for longer, this will be tried again in the future).

300mg of gramine dissolved in 40ml acetone (At 25c). FASA will be added to this later today or tomorrow to see if fumarates precipitates.
 
endlessness
#18 Posted : 7/10/2012 10:37:21 PM

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Gramine fumarate precipitation tests

Gramine does precipitate with FASA (and most probably with FASI on limonene too).

To the 300mg freebase gramine dissolved in 40ml acetone, I added around 40ml FASA. It got cloudy, then it became clear, and after some hours it crystallized in very pretty needles that arrange in circular form, very similar to DMT:




Conclusion: if gramine is in your extraction solvent, salting with FASI/FASA will not separate it from DMT. Separation is better done by pulling with cold/room temp limonene or room temp naphtha (and a recrystallization to help separating it even more).
 
Parshvik Chintan
#19 Posted : 7/10/2012 10:39:27 PM

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endlessness wrote:
At 28 degrees celcius, 10mg gramine dissolved in 15ml limonene. At 15c, this dropped to half, so 10mg gramine needed around 30ml limonene to dissolve. At 15c, 10mg DMT dissolved in 5ml limonene, meaning at coldish/room temp it's 6x more soluble in limonene than gramine. This means separation with limonene is not perfect but it's already significant.

so would it be safe to assume that the colder the better?
any guesstimate as to how much colder one could go while still maintaining reasonable DMT solubility?

also does dmt/gramine salting vary greatly between fumaric acid and acetic, or is it essentially the same?
if so, what would be the preferable method?
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endlessness
#20 Posted : 7/10/2012 10:58:24 PM

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Dont know if the colder the better.

Would be necessary to make a solubility test at a few different temperatures, both of DMT and of gramine, and then compare the curve of both and see at which point most DMT dissolves while dissolve less comparative gramine. The problem is, I dont even know how I could do that, because the lab where im making the tests is kinda hot, and as soon as I remove the solvent from the fridge it starts warming up.. So I cannot get it very low without having it warm up quickly, and we only got a small fridge so I cant do the tests inside the fridge hehe.

I think both forms of salting would equally salt out gramine.

I think for the moment, best is to get some marquis reagent, and extract grass with cold or room temp limo or naphtha, then whatever final product you have, test with some marquis to see color reaction, and let us know the results! Smile
 
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