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The Caapi Analysis Thread Options
 
Mitakuye Oyasin
#21 Posted : 3/6/2012 3:47:22 AM

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Thanks again endlessness. This is really fascinating information. Very happy
Keep up the great work! Peace.
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BecometheOther
#22 Posted : 3/7/2012 9:13:07 PM

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Jamie,

Banisteriopsis muricata is a new plant to the scene and if you search up and down you will not find any bioassays, or any solid information at all.

But my understanding is that banisteriopsis muricata and black cappi are 2 very different things. Most black cappi is similiar in alkaloid profile to other cappi strains, it contains harmalas etc.

Banisteriopsis muricata is a different plant altogether, closely resembling the banisteriopsis cappi vine, except only the leaves are used and it contains dmt it is also speculated that it contains b-carbs or harmalas because the leaves are active on its own. This is why you can find b. muricata leaves for sale but not vine....

I cannot be 100% for sure, because i personally have not used b. muricata ( i will be trying as soon as it is again in season). But i HAVE used several different kinds of black ayahuasca, and all of them were black but resembled b.cappi in appearance and effects.

but i believe i am correct, i am in close contact with several people in Peru who are on the frontlines of identifying these plants, and have had several conversations about b. muricata... (with one of the only people to have positively identified this plant)

That is not to say that what one tribe calls black cappi is in fact, b muricata. Thats what complicates it is i think people are putting far too much stake in these local names, when in fact in one place one name can refer to a totally different plant, than in another place where the same name may be used for a different plant.

Black cappi, looks and smells like cappi, it has the pores on the end, and is very strong, but contains no dmt nonetheless.
B. muricata is a vine resembling chaliponga and ayahuasca, but supposedly contains dmt and harmalas and about 20 grams of leaf are used. (as apposed to chaliponga which can be very active at 5 grams)
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alert
#23 Posted : 3/8/2012 2:11:38 AM
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I saw this posted elsewhere and found it interesting, I can't vouch for the quality of the information but the harmala ratios are sourced:

Quote:
There are actually lots of different ways of categorizing ayahuasca vine types in the Upper Amazon. Mestzio shamans, for example, will distinguish not only red ayahuasca, white ayahuasca, yellow ayahuasca, and black ayahuasca, but also cielo ayahuasca, sky ayahuasca, lucero ayahuasca, bright star ayahuasca, trueno ayahuasca, thunder ayahuasca, and ayahuasca cascabel, rattle ayahuasca, which is supposed to be the best ayahuasca of all.

These distinctions are often based on the types of visions produced, rather than on the morphology of the plant. Sometimes attempts are made to coordinate these various classifications: yellow ayahuasca is said to be the same as sky ayahuasca, black ayahuasca the same as thunder ayahuasca.

Similarly, the Ingano Indians recognize seven kinds of ayahuasca, the Siona recognize eighteen, and the Harakmbet famously recognize twenty-two, distinguished on the basis of the strength and color of the visions, the trading history of the plant, and the authority and lineage of the shaman who owns the plant. All of these variations are a single botanical species, yet shamans can distinguish these varieties on sight, and shamans from different tribes identify these same varieties with remarkable consistency. Indigenous ayahuasqueros look at the shape of the vine, the color and texture of the bark, the shape and softness of the leaves, and the overall nature of the cylindrical shape of the vine, not to mention its smell and taste.

In Brazil, members of the União de Vegetal church distinguish two varieties of Banisteriopsis caapi, which they call tucanaca and caupurí. The tucanaca variety is a smooth vine which grows in the cooler climate of southern Brazil and is known to have a mild purgative effect; the caupurí variety is a knobby-looking vine with large internodes, which grows in the hotter jungles of northern Brazil and is known as a powerful purgative. The table below compares the mean beta-carboline content of these two varieties of ayahuasca vine, expressed as mg/g of dried bark:

Mean Banisteripsois caapi beta-carboline content (mg/g):*

VARIETY......HARMINE.......THH..........HARMALINE
Caupurí.........8.68............5.06..............0.69
Tucana..........5.50............0.19..............0.11

These results indicate, once again, both significant differences in chemical composition among ayahuasca vines and indigenous ability to recognize variants of the same species and correlate these differences with differing physiological effects.

*Callaway, J. C. (1999). Phytochemistry and neuropharmacology of ayahuasca. In R. Metzner (Ed.). Ayahuasca: Hallucinogens, consciousness, and the spirits of nature (pp. 250-275). New York, NY: Thunder’s Mouth Press.
 
ms_manic_minxx
#24 Posted : 3/8/2012 8:32:33 AM

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This is so exciting. I am also so amazed that there is one plant that does it all. Cool

Although, what's that acacia called? The "Tree of Thorns?" Wink

I think we are going to attempt some mysterious Caapi seeds, as we found something labeled b. muricata... might take a while, thoughConfused
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jamie
#25 Posted : 3/8/2012 4:24:59 PM

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BecometheOther wrote:
Jamie,

Banisteriopsis muricata is a new plant to the scene and if you search up and down you will not find any bioassays, or any solid information at all.

But my understanding is that banisteriopsis muricata and black cappi are 2 very different things. Most black cappi is similiar in alkaloid profile to other cappi strains, it contains harmalas etc.

Banisteriopsis muricata is a different plant altogether, closely resembling the banisteriopsis cappi vine, except only the leaves are used and it contains dmt it is also speculated that it contains b-carbs or harmalas because the leaves are active on its own. This is why you can find b. muricata leaves for sale but not vine....

I cannot be 100% for sure, because i personally have not used b. muricata ( i will be trying as soon as it is again in season). But i HAVE used several different kinds of black ayahuasca, and all of them were black but resembled b.cappi in appearance and effects.

but i believe i am correct, i am in close contact with several people in Peru who are on the frontlines of identifying these plants, and have had several conversations about b. muricata... (with one of the only people to have positively identified this plant)

That is not to say that what one tribe calls black cappi is in fact, b muricata. Thats what complicates it is i think people are putting far too much stake in these local names, when in fact in one place one name can refer to a totally different plant, than in another place where the same name may be used for a different plant.

Black cappi, looks and smells like cappi, it has the pores on the end, and is very strong, but contains no dmt nonetheless.
B. muricata is a vine resembling chaliponga and ayahuasca, but supposedly contains dmt and harmalas and about 20 grams of leaf are used. (as apposed to chaliponga which can be very active at 5 grams)


I have a whole thread about this from a few weeks ago with all of this information and links.

I have looked extensivly into this..there has been speculation from other researching ethnobotanists that banisteriopsis muricata is a kind of "black caapi". There is also a thread at the ayahuasca forums about this. BTW, "caapi" traditionally does not mean "banisteriopsis caapi"..that was a title given to the vine by Shultes becasue he found some tribes using banisteriopsis "caapi"..but throughout the amazon there are many caapi vines that are not banisteriopsis caapi, or even banisteriopsis..like the tetrapteris methystica vine..

There also have been some bioassays by people at the ayahuasca forums who were given this vine in South America. I remember one person who was given the VINE and not the leaves..

Where did you get the idea that only the leaves of muricata are used BecomeTheOther? Everything I have read on this vine would not support that statement.

The only vendor that I have seen selling muricata leaves is kiwi..and no offence to them becasue they have alot of great stuff..but they have a problem of misidentifiying things atm..

Where did you get the idea that leaves are active on their own if you have never tried them and there is no information out there on this species?

As far as I understand the other species of leaf used as admixture that we can be somewhat sure of atm that is used as "chaliponga" but active at the 20g level is an Alicia species..I dunno about muricata leaves. They have been found to contain DMT but I have never read any leaf bioassays so I am curious as to why or how you come to these conclusions?

Another issue is that mestizo shamans seem to identify a number of different vines, that might not be the same identification as the surrounding tribes..the issue of "black caapi" is far from solved.
 
BecometheOther
#26 Posted : 3/10/2012 12:21:33 AM

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Jamie, thanks for your reply,

Like i said, i dont have b. muricata, nor have i ever tried it.. So im just trying to figure this out just like we all are.....

I did see your thread, ive been meaning to make a similiar thread for awhile about the many cappi strains, and b. muricata, but i am very busy latelty, so im glad someone did it!

I also have researched the topic very extensively and am pretty confident in what i have to say. but im not trying to bicker (im sure you arent either) just trying to add to our undertsading of these plants.

I frequent the ayahuasca forum as well and have been posting there for 8 years now, and i follow all of the threads concerning black cappis and b. muricata (im sure you as well are aware of theses threads because i have seen your posts there) as well as similiar threads on similair forums...

Right the b. muricata is supposed to closely resemble the ayahuasca vine (or b. cappi), much in the same way chaliponga does. Keep in mind in "reality" these plant classifications dont exists, they just allow us to categorize them.. and im sure all of these vines are very closely related... On that point i beleive we are in agreement.

Now I dont understand you asking where i got these ideas.... Youve never taken it eather right? so where did you get your ideas that the vine is used? Oh from reading info on the web just like me..... Until we have more facts my theories are just as valid as yours.

I said in my above post the same thing you just said, about shamans of one area calling one plant by a different name than in another area. So what my be black aya in one area may be b. muricata in another. This is a point we have well established.

You mention kiwi being the only one offering leaves... as far as i know he is the only 1 offering b. muricata period...... if im wrong feel free to point me to a vendor that is selling b. muricata vine.
Also can you tell me specifically what problems he is having with identification? I know there was an issue with the id of his chaliponga a while back, but that is the only issue i have heard of. Not to mention there are no other vendors in the world who has the plants he does. Since then he has had help identifieng the true chaliponga plant, and other than that ive had no issues with him. He also said to me when i enquired about b. muricata, that the leaves contained tryptamines. Take that for what you will lol. When he coollects plants he takes them to a local shaman, in fact this is how he learned of the mis identification of his chaliopnga i beleive.

The info i get on the subject is from discussions i have with a close uncle who lives in peru. He is much older than me and much wiser in the ways of ayahuasca. He pays local shamans to identify these plants, amont them b.muricata and many ayahuasca varieties and chaliponga and many kinds of psychotria. He said one of his friends took 20 grams of what the shaman identified as b. muricata, alone no admixture (at the shamans recomendations), and had a very pleasant expereince. That is all he said. I have enquired further on the subject and am awaiting a reply.

I get my info the same way anyone does, i dont just pull it out of my rear end dude! If i am wrong i will be hapy to admit it. We just dont know yet, but im sure in the near future we will have more info and some solid conclusions, but for now lets just work together on getting it ID'd.

The only way i see it happening is if many samples are collected from various sources, because if just one vine or leaf from one source is tested, there is no garuantee that the ID was correct, or that that plant doesnt go by a different name as well.

We really just need to make up some names for ourselves, and agree upon them, because just calling something black or red or yellow doesnt tell what area it came from and blacks form brazil are very different than peruvian black.

cheers
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jamie
#27 Posted : 3/17/2012 5:31:56 PM

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becometheother..you may be correct that muricata is not black caapi..at least according to kiwiboancaya's classification..I ordered "red ayahuasca" from them..I think at the time it was mislabled as "Banisteriopsis Caapi", but now after he got everything correctly ID'd is is labled "Banisteriop Muricata"(red ayahuasca)..so it may be that at least in some parts the muricata is the red vine..either was I have 3 kilos of this vine on the way along with the alicia vine labled as "black ayahuasca" on the site..so I will report back after I test these 2 vines.

Edit..well here muricata is listed as black ayahausca..
http://www.ktbotanicals....black-vine-p-14488.html

I ordered Banisteriopsis Muricata seeds from Kiwi as well, and at the time they had 2 kinds listed Muricata(white) and I think Muricata(red)..but I was informed by someone else that when grown out the Muricata(white) seeds are not muricata at all..ahhh so this is all just *very* confusing.

I like Kiwi though and what they are doing..noone else is offering these vines..I have emailed him asking these questions though after spending alot of money on that site and no relpy after at least 2 weeks still..maybe he is just so busy or gets loads of emails..either way there is alot of interesting vines available through the site.
 
universecannon
#28 Posted : 3/17/2012 6:43:44 PM



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^ yea he can be a bit slow/bad with emails and his english is pretty bad. I would just keep emailing him. He's been pretty reliable though ime. Most said it took a month or two for they're orders but we got ours in 10 days or so
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rahlii
#29 Posted : 3/18/2012 12:17:22 AM

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jamie wrote:
becometheother..you may be correct that muricata is not black caapi..at least according to kiwiboancaya's classification..I ordered "red ayahuasca" from them..I think at the time it was mislabled as "Banisteriopsis Caapi", but now after he got everything correctly ID'd is is labled "Banisteriop Muricata"(red ayahuasca)..so it may be that at least in some parts the muricata is the red vine..either was I have 3 kilos of this vine on the way along with the alicia vine labled as "black ayahuasca" on the site..so I will report back after I test these 2 vines.


I am very interested to hear your report on the Alicia vine brew. Safe journey.

I am also interest to hear a report on the 20g of Alicia leaves used in an Ayahuasca brew.

A detailed analysis on both the vine and the leaves would provide some clear answers to the direction these source materials are heading.

Cheers mate.
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jamie
#30 Posted : 4/17/2012 7:15:10 PM

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yeah I spoke with him a few weeks back and got all the vine and leaf I ordered..the seeds were not ready yet.

The black vine listed as alicia anisopetela, has now been called in question again by people on the aya forums and seems to actaully be alicia macrodisca.
 
BecometheOther
#31 Posted : 4/17/2012 7:17:49 PM

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Jamie, i feel you 100% on dealing with kiwi, it is what it is, and i appreciate his offerings. A few times i send an email and never get a response. When that happens i just send him a new one checking in and he says, oh sorry i was doing this or that and was busy etc. its all good! Hes a good guy, and has been very promt in his correspondence with me 95% of the time.

not too long ago B. muricata appeared to be a name used (at least by him alfonzo of kiwiboancaya) that can refer to white red or black ayahuasca....

But he did send me an email further clarifying this:

He apologized for the mistakes in identification first, and informed me that the new identifications are correct for all practical purposes...

He said that what he WAS SELLING AS RED VINE is not b. muricata but is the Alicia anisopetala. This plant needs investigation. I used it once again at a dose of 25 grams, no admixtures, and felt only threashold effects this time...

He now has true b. muricata which he is selling as red ayahuasca (b. muricata).

This leads me to question in my mind what the mysterious 3rd kind of ayahuasca he sent me is. I dont see it for sale on his site, and he said he sent it to me as a special offer to test it out, and called it "black ayahuasca". (it looks totally different from the black aya for sale on his site now..

(but i took it and it was my favorite kind he offered, a truly different ayahuasca, with distincly different effects. and i havent even used strong admix with it. and it smelled so good, just like all cappi i have smelled, and has the same pores on the ends, with less distinct patterning than the b. cappi)

I think its up to us to figure this out guys!! Alfonzo is a great guy to have in our corner, so i ask everyone have patience and understanding for him.

Cheers brothers! I think we should really get cracking on this, I appreciate any PMs on the subject as well, or further discussion of identification of these other kinds....

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rahlii
#32 Posted : 4/21/2012 8:15:57 AM

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Hi Jamie,

Some good work being done on the history and activity of Alicia sp. over at the Ayhuasca forum. Interesting about the recent change to Alicia macrodisca. Even more interesting that the leaves have been attributed with containing DMT and the vine maoi, giving this source plant the potential to provide both the light and the force. I'm hoping you have purchased enough of this material and have the will to confirm this method of activity. It would also be nice to get some of the mature vine and leaves tested to confirm this potential for the more data persuaded of us folks.

Alicia is defiantly turning out to be an exciting new discovery within the entheoenic plant community and there still remains a lot more exiting discoverys to be made.



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endlessness
#33 Posted : 4/22/2012 4:15:23 PM

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I added a couple of black caapi extract analysis to the first post.

One interesting fact that came up, if you notice the new extracts added, the black caapi #1 methanol soak did not show harmaline, while the a/b extract from same plant material did. This might be another indication that harmalas can convert during boiling as described in this thread: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&m=338823
 
endlessness
#34 Posted : 5/19/2012 8:52:19 PM

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More results added to first post, white caapi. Funny that the pure methanol soak seems to have no harmaline nor THH, but the extract did have trace quantities of it..... This again seems to imply, as comment and link in post above, that boiling (during the process of extracting) will convert some harmine into harmaline and then THH.

Next couple of weeks I hope to send these 4 ayahuascas to test
 
endlessness
#35 Posted : 6/5/2012 8:41:14 PM

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I just added 3 new results to the first page: Ourinhos, Banisteriopsis caapi (Yellow ayahuasca) and Banisteriopsis muricata (Red ayahuasca).

There is an interesting new b-carboline in that particular Ourinhos, 6-Methoxy-tetrahydro-1-norharmanone, of unknown activity, we'll talk more on this later as we gather info (mass spectra matches VERY well, NIST gives 95% chance, but we dont have a standard of it to be 100% sure). EDIT: No, this is not 6-Meo, this is 7-MeO, also called ketatetrahydronorharmine. I checked in literature, the mass spectra is almost the same except one peak (at 159) in the ketatetrahydronorharmine is higher, which helped me distinguishing them. Anyways there is no info on possible psychoactivity of ketatetrahydronorharmine

It also has a significant amount of oleamide, which is an endogenous agonist of cannabinoid receptors, which I wonder what it does to the mix. Oleamide was also found in some phalaris we tested.

Also notice Red muricata seems very similar to all other caapi,though with a significant amount of what seems to be plant sterol, AFAIK these substances are not psychoactive generally but I really have no idea what pharmacological significance they may have, if any. This substance also seems to possibly be there in yellow caapi. In the future I will get more red ayahuasca from different sources to check. Also note that this is not quantitative analysis, I did not measure how much there was total in the plant, but rather alkaloid amounts relative to each other in each plant, so one plant that may have similar alkaloid profile can be significantly more or less potent than another similar one. A simple extraction and weighing precipitates should tell, but I dont have time for it, anybody else feel free to do.

I also got the results for Black (Alicia anisopetala) and Grey (Tetrapterys methystica) but so far I couldnt identify ANY of the peaks!! It does not seem to have any beta-carboline that I know, neither that is in NIST's database. I'm not even sure where to begin the search, I think the best is to gather as much mass spectra info from different alkaloids found in caapi and related vines, and then try to compare spectras visually. I will post the graph and the spectras of main peaks tomorrow here, and you all can also help out here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=32604

One last thing: whenever possible, a small amount of each sample is being stored for future and could be sent (whenever legal of course) to researchers around the world that might want to re-analyse these plants. I'm also in the process of attaching all mass spectra files so that others can view the spectra in open-sourced programs such as OpenChrom.
 
3rdI
#36 Posted : 6/5/2012 9:37:53 PM

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Once again your doing cracking work for the entheogenic community.

I can't thank you enough endlessness, 'you da man'Thumbs up
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#37 Posted : 6/5/2012 11:13:41 PM

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Thanks endless. Very much looking forward to seeing the peaks for alicia.

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nen888
#38 Posted : 6/6/2012 6:59:14 AM
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..great new info every second day at the Nexus..Smile
endlessness wrote:
Quote:
I also got the results for Black (Alicia anisopetala) and Grey (Tetrapterys methystica) but so far I couldnt identify ANY of the peaks!! It does not seem to have any beta-carboline that I know, neither that is in NIST's database. I'm not even sure where to begin the search
..very interesting..the vine is reported as having psychoactivity..to throw in a guess for possible 'where to start' candidates, if it was a methanol soak, then (being polar) it would extract Flavonoids (A/B wouldn't, AFAIK)
..there should be obtainable mass spec data for querticin, vitexin and other MAOI flavonoids..
just a poke in the dark..fascinating results endlessness..
.
 
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#39 Posted : 6/6/2012 8:50:42 AM

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I totally love this thread! Analyzing caapis is the best idea ever!

@endlessness: The substances A, B, C, D and E shown in the Red caapi (from M4Y4) and Black caapi (from M4Y4) chart. Can you post the ion masses of the peaks? The "MASS SPECTRA OF SELECTED BETA-CARBOLINES", I've posted in the information gathering thread has a lot of spectra in it, so they should be in there somewhere. If they are B-Carbolines of course... If not, any other idea what they could be?
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endlessness
#40 Posted : 6/6/2012 4:35:18 PM

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Thanks for the interest, everybody Smile

Here are the peaks and some of the main peak spectra of Alicia anisopetala, feel free to help me identify. As you can see, the sample was too diluted (hence a lot of "background noise" ). Either way it is already clear there are no harmalas in any of the peaks, we have reference standard for the harmalas and we have run a bunch of harmala-containing samples before and after that sample so it would make it very easy to identify if they were there.

I will run again the Alicia anisopetala with a more concentrated dilution and post here again in the next weeks, but in the meanwhile we can already get a good idea.

For example peak A, im not sure if its more than one substance or more than one that co-chromatographed, but anyways I attached the spectra detected from it, to see if anyone can identify.

Also attaching the peaks for caapi red/black from m4y4. First post in this thread was edited to include a .RAR file with the raw mass spectra files from all tested caapis, so everybody can take a look at the spectra themselves by opening the files with openchrom
endlessness attached the following image(s):
anisopetalatic.jpg (114kb) downloaded 573 time(s).
anisopetalaa.jpg (86kb) downloaded 570 time(s).
anisopetalac.jpg (85kb) downloaded 569 time(s).
anisopetalad.jpg (96kb) downloaded 569 time(s).
anisopetalae.jpg (97kb) downloaded 571 time(s).
anisopetalaf.jpg (90kb) downloaded 574 time(s).
caapiA.jpg (90kb) downloaded 571 time(s).
caapiB.jpg (91kb) downloaded 568 time(s).
caapic.jpg (96kb) downloaded 571 time(s).
caapie.jpg (86kb) downloaded 571 time(s).
caapif.jpg (105kb) downloaded 567 time(s).
anisopetalab.jpg (87kb) downloaded 557 time(s).
 
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