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On processing Phalaris. PDF Options
 
endlessness
#21 Posted : 1/17/2012 9:56:10 AM

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It's in literature several times that they have a significantly different Rf, benz.

Check this file I uploaded here with the Rfs of different alkaloids according to literature: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=27459

Of course for a definite identification one would need mass-spec, but if making n-oxide works as according to literature with hydrogen peroxide, if the Rf's match, and if when testing some plant material you see spot at same height and changing to the same color with some reagent, its very very good possibility.. And if its not there at all, well its also very likely dmt n-oxide is not present at all.. Dont you agree?
 

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nen888
#22 Posted : 1/17/2012 12:02:15 PM
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..all very interesting, just taking this thread in now..thanks fourthripley..! the nexus needs more work like this..
 
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#23 Posted : 1/17/2012 2:07:34 PM

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endlessness wrote:
It's in literature several times that they have a significantly different Rf, benz.

Check this file I uploaded here with the Rfs of different alkaloids according to literature: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=27459

Of course for a definite identification one would need mass-spec, but if making n-oxide works as according to literature with hydrogen peroxide, if the Rf's match, and if when testing some plant material you see spot at same height and changing to the same color with some reagent, its very very good possibility.. And if its not there at all, well its also very likely dmt n-oxide is not present at all.. Dont you agree?


yea, I agree if you can reproduce it.
but ion-exchange has much higher resolution, and can be used for preparative purposes. kill
two birds with one stone. one could use UV or fluorescence spec for this method.
The trick is to observe the pKa's of the variants, and prepare a buffer system (mobile phase)
at a certain pH (slightly basic for anion exchange, slightly acidic for cation exchange) that will separate the analytes from low to high salt concentrations. N-Oxide would elute after DMT in cation-exchange.
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billydgator
#24 Posted : 1/17/2012 6:39:23 PM

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Great read! This gets me in the mood to sow some seeds!
 
balaganist
#25 Posted : 1/21/2012 3:53:49 AM

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Yep thanks for posting this. Just found a bag of Phalaris brachystachys recently I will start to grow them soon...

I am interested in more natural extraction tek, but it seems the variability means that some kind of extraction is needed to determine potency.

Ultimately I would like to use it as a dmt source for ayahuasca, that I can grow in the UK.
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fourthripley
#26 Posted : 1/21/2012 10:32:32 PM
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jamie wrote:
fourthripley, did you every bioassay the arundinacea extracts? My own experience with extracting and testing(on myself) wild arundinacea was similar to what you described of your experience with brachy's..only I never went quite as far as you did. I tested lighter doses a few times and there was definatily tryptamine effects pesent..Only once did I smoke a bit too much and this was very much like what I have read of 5meoDMT..it was frightening but facinating. I have alot of experience with DMT but none with pure 5meoDMT though so I cant be 100% sure what it was that caused that effect.

Interesting that you find an increase in alkaloids in grass harvested in the fall..that has been my observation as well with wild grass.

I must say that these reports of grass extractions that include bioassays are worth so much..too often a thread comes up with some extraction pics etc..someone extracts a yellow goo or something and then the thread just dies..no bioassay..which just sort leaves us back where we started. We all know grass can yield a yellow goo..but analysis and bioassay are what we need.


I only tried this extraction once on Arundinicea, simply to establish that the chlorophyll precip. would work with other grasses. About a pound of material was harvested from one plant on a frosty January morning. The tiny amount of oil recovered smelled the part but was too small to bioassay.
I did a fair amount of work with wild Arundinicea in the early 00's with varying degrees of success- both extractions and oral combinations- I shall get around to digging out my notes and posting them upSmile
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fourthripley
#27 Posted : 1/21/2012 10:51:21 PM
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balaganist wrote:
Yep thanks for posting this. Just found a bag of Phalaris brachystachys recently I will start to grow them soon...

I am interested in more natural extraction tek, but it seems the variability means that some kind of extraction is needed to determine potency.

Ultimately I would like to use it as a dmt source for ayahuasca, that I can grow in the UK.


I have experimented a little with unprocessed brachystachys in aya type brews.

Quote:

To further get a feel for the alkaloid profile/amounts and determine the usefulness of this plant I decided to conduct some oral + maoi experiments.
150mg of Manske extracted harmaloids was disolved in warm water and drunk and the juice of 30g wet foliage consumed 20 minutes later. I felt I may have detected
a faint effect not totally attributable to the harmaloids, but too weak that it couldn't be put down to placebo.
For the next experiment, thinking I may have underdosed on the maoi component for my body mass, I upped the dose to 250mg.
At 12.00 today I consumed the above followed 20 minutes later with the juiceof 60g foliage.If in doubt double the dose...
12.30: first alert
12.45: a definite effect, resigned to things dropping off here but hoping they don't.
12.55: this is not a dud. A moderately strong dmt effect. Only minor visual distortions and no patterns but an unmistakeable positive. Everything has 'the look'. Difficult to describe, a very organic and 'clean' feeling. Euphoria. I would maybe compare it to the 5 minutes after vaping 50mg of fb, only without the 'weight', and much extended over time. A plateau over a period of an hour with waves of increasing intensity gently lapping throughout.
14.00: rapidly drops away and I feel able to engage in light conversation. Feeling great, with colours still pleasantly enhanced with occasional echoes of the peak. The past hour and a half subjectively much longer than it was.
14.30: baseline. Negotiated a busy supermarket without incident.


The above experiment was conducted at the end of an English August. An attempt in mid October of that year with double the quantity of juiced foliage proved to be a dud. Alkaloid levels seem to vary wildly with seasonal and temperature variations. Due to the overwhelming and somewhat unsettling nature of vaporised extracts I am extremely wary of 'pharma' attempts with this material. Its extreme potency- vaporising a 10mg amount of the fb leads to writing off the hour where 10mg of Hostilis extracted material would barely touch the sides- leads me to strongly believe that the strain I'm growing is a 5meo carrier.
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Dozuki
#28 Posted : 1/21/2012 11:58:25 PM

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P. brachystachys is pretty much uncharted territory. We know nothing of its genetic nor environmental variability. We can only assume that it *might* follow similar paths as other Phalaris. Bear in mind that arundinecea and aquatic, while being able to cross, do not necessarily follow the same genetics as for alkaloid content according to the literature.

So, its good to get as much information as possible. Time of harvest, stressing techniques if used, etc...

Thanks for posting more notes!
 
jamie
#29 Posted : 3/22/2012 4:30:54 PM

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Can we be sure that there is not any DMT in the plant itself already in the form of oxides? The np solvent used in these teks was naptha..which wont pull much if any oxides. The yields do seem lower than what should be expected of brachys. I wonder also if maybe some of the DMT could be bound up in something else similar to with mimosa..where xylene etc would pull a larger yield..
 
endlessness
#30 Posted : 3/22/2012 5:02:19 PM

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While dmt n-oxide is not soluble in pure naphtha, it IS soluble in naphtha that has oils dissolved in it, so if you're doing a naphtha pull on basic phalaris solution it should get the n-oxide.
 
jamie
#31 Posted : 3/22/2012 5:51:00 PM

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Interesting..but the defat step in the tek that was done in that PDF said that it removed all the fats and oils so that it was then just like a mimosa tea. So would there be enough oils still there to make any oxides soluble in the solvent? This is assuming that defat step really is that effective.

Im just trying to figure out why those yeilds would be so low..I mean it is awesome that there is DMT there and you can just grow a few doses like that..brachys is reported from like 1-3% and with the results from the PDF that grass would not even be like .5%

Maybe some of the DMT is also bound up in whatever it was that was removed in that defat step..I remember an old report about phalaris arundiancea extractions on another forum that said that some DMT does get bound up with the fats and oils...maybe that is oxides?
 
endlessness
#32 Posted : 3/22/2012 8:56:24 PM

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Yeah many questions indeed... I think defatting will mean less dmt n-oxide will come through, but depends how thorough it was done.

I think its important to be wary of what solvent to defat too.. I remember reading in Trout that, IIRC, defatting with chloroform will mean loss of alkaloids since some acetates are soluble in it.. Maybe with DCM too? I wouldnt think so with xylene/toluene/limonene/naphtha, though...

Frac, where do you get your 1-3% data from?
 
jamie
#33 Posted : 3/22/2012 9:46:09 PM

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^isnt brachys stated all over to be up to 3% alks? this is just what I have always read..I dunno maybe less than 1% is the norm..I will find out sometime soon I guess cus I have some brachys that just germinated about a day ago..some of it is nearly an inch tall now.
 
fourthripley
#34 Posted : 3/22/2012 9:46:15 PM
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jamie wrote:
Can we be sure that there is not any DMT in the plant itself already in the form of oxides? The np solvent used in these teks was naptha..which wont pull much if any oxides. The yields do seem lower than what should be expected of brachys. I wonder also if maybe some of the DMT could be bound up in something else similar to with mimosa..where xylene etc would pull a larger yield..


DCM third pulls performed on the cold basic solution yield very modest amounts, what I would expect from a third pull. However, DCM does pull something else from the basic solution that naphtha does not; dried DCM extractions have a strong smell I would describe as simiar to rotting leaves or Ivy in flower. I wonder if this might be gramine or some other less desirable product. I haven't been able to find a desciption anywhere of what Gramine might smell like.
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Dozuki
#35 Posted : 3/23/2012 12:31:09 PM

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I noticed a very similar smell from a Chaliponga extraction with DCM. I've smelled it in other extractions as well. I have no idea what it is from.
 
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#36 Posted : 3/23/2012 10:22:28 PM

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Hmmm, so how about that Phalaris forum?
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nen888
#37 Posted : 11/26/2012 11:57:24 PM
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fourthripley wrote:
Quote:
DCM third pulls performed on the cold basic solution yield very modest amounts, what I would expect from a third pull. However, DCM does pull something else from the basic solution that naphtha does not; dried DCM extractions have a strong smell I would describe as simiar to rotting leaves or Ivy in flower. I wonder if this might be gramine or some other less desirable product. I haven't been able to find a desciption anywhere of what Gramine might smell like.
..i associate this kind of smell (from guessing what you mean) with acacia DCM extracts with simple tryptamine and perhaps oxides of some kind being present..
just to add to the confusion..Smile
..anyway, a few mg Gramine vaporised is not going to kill anyone, unlikely to do much or even be noticeable in my theoretical opinion..
 
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