So I know I am new here to the nexus and all but I want to ask the community something: how versed is your knowledge in organic chemistry?

Once again I don't want to sound like an ass; please don't take it that way. It's just I do a lot of reading on these forums to best figure out a method of extracting DMT from the root bark of Mimosa hostilis (in which I think I have). But in doing so ... I feel a lot of you guys are simply following directions ... not really knowing whats going on during the process. I do realize there are plenty of stickies, especially in the general extraction forum, that do explain a lot of basic chemistry processes, but to some it might seem out of context.

So for me (like I said in my intro) I'm in graduate school studying molecular biology ... so pretty much: biology but chemistry plays a big role. In my undergraduate years I took a lot of classes focusing on organic chemistry, because after all organic chemistry is the basic science to explain biological processes and function. Also I took a few labs in which the final step was always a extraction followed by a recrystallization. Basically I had the know how long before I tried making DMT, which is something I don't think very many people have. So saying that, I would like to hear from you guys on your formal chemistry background.

Also, after saying all of that, I would like to present the idea of doing a collaboration with someone in demonstrating a complete A/B extraction technique completed with pictures and diagrams that cover pretty much all of the chemistry that goes into it so that anyone can understand it. I feel like a project like this would pretty much answer almost all questions one may have in doing an extraction. Soon I'll be getting some more MHRB powder in the mail and plan on taking pictures every step of the way (I also have a decent camera). If someone who is well versed in the chemistry (i.e. what it means to oxidize and how it causes a phase change and the basic principles of hydrophobicity) would like to make diagrams to complement it, that would be awesome. I plan on being an educator, so this is why I would like to do this. I want more people to think of this as a chemistry experiment, knowing exactly what is going on and exactly what they are doing, rather than a method of cooking up drugs, if you know what I mean. So let me know what you think! If your interested, or if you already have resources explaining all this, feel free to share and we can organize it as such.

We have a few professional chemists, many who have extensive undergrad experience with chemistry labs and others who have learned along the way while contributing very useful techniques. I guess I don't understand the point of your question though. With such a variety of voices here, of course some people will have lots of orgo knowledge while others will not.

Your project sounds very cool, and a great way to combine your interests. You may need to expand on why it would be of interest to others to participate in it though.

Whitebread,

Welcome and it is great to have you and your knowledge here. I've noticed a few very sophisticated chemistry posts but I think you are right in that most of us just follow the Teks without understanding in great depth. Even though I'm a scientist (mathematician) this is certainly true for me. My last chemistry class was 28 years ago and I don't really know the chemistry beyond "this is the acid step, this is the base step, etc." So I think your project idea is great and I, for one, am appreciative of the various chemistry posts that teach me a great deal.

eH

To begin I think a project explaining in detail all the steps would be a wonderful idea...

(Begin rant...)

However, while formal knowledge is good its it not the only way we acquire knowledge... self teaching, the sharing of knowledge (as seen here) and learning by doing are all excellent ways to acquire knowledge .. ( see some dudes "knowledge spiral" ) ...

I think more often than not most of us are guilty of relying too heavily on and/or pass judgement on others, both good and bad, simply because of a bunch of letters (ie BA, PhD, MBA.... etc etc) or a lack there of ..

While this may be a good indication of ones motivation i think it is entirely unfair to discredit the vast wealth of knowledge from those without any formal education (not saying that your doing that tho... just my ranting)

Anyways... end rant.. to answer your question i have no formal chemistry knowledge, with the exception of grade 12 chem, though chemistry was my first love..

The Dude

DudeMeetTyler makes good points.

I'd also like to express my appreciation for the non-chemists here who, through extensive trial and testing, have contributed so much experiential knowledge in this area. I only meant to say in the earlier post that for me sometimes quantitative methods are also very illuminating.

eH

I can see what you guys are saying so far. I think making something complete (organized) will not only be very educational, but open up some eyes as to how things (chemicals) interact around us all the time.

You and me are very curious people; it's why we wanted to first try DMT in the first place(hopefully), to expand our mental horizons on what existence is and how we perceive that existence. This is one aspect of our curiosity.

so based on a more "real" curiosity, if you will... so many simple concepts behind extracting DMT can be related to everything in this world; how it was made, how life came about, how populations evolve, simply everything. Basically it comes down to the laws of thermodynamics. So my thought was that if you really understood what was going on during the process, you can relate these ideas to almost anything in biology, geology, chemistry, ecology and the list goes on and on so that you may always be curious about the things around you in the world.

Basically to be intelligent, one must relate concepts, not necessarily having anything to do with one another. That is the main purpose of this. One great method of teaching is to make it fun. This is, for the sake of who uses this forum, one awesome way of doing it.

I don't know that there is really very much to understand. We aren't doing synthesis. It's just a simple A/B extraction.

Sure there is a lot of chemistry background knowledge that is nice to have, but for the most part people just need to understand the difference between an acid and a base in terms of protons (Hydrogen atoms). An acid is a proton donor and a base is a proton acceptor. Whether a compound is functioning as an acid or as a base is dependent upon the pKa of the molecule and the PH of the solution it's in. The pKa of most molecules can be looked up in the Merk Manual.

Literally all the knowledge and theory for this can be summed here.

http://www.web-books.com/MoBio/Free/Ch2A4.htm

The only last tid bit of chemistry knowledge would be to note that most alkaloid salts are soluble in water and most alkaloid freebases are not. Thus we use PH to manipulate the state of the compound and pull it away from everything else.

Actually I guess there is another part. Crystallography. Now this is an area that we could really dive into some physical chemistry theory...but it will largely by dry theory without methods and means to test it out. Crystallography is a fascinating field for sure. I have spend a lot of years working with protein crystal structures...

In any event I wasn't trying to disuade you...just toss'in in my worthless 2 cents.

Peace

this

I've had more undergrad research, thus experience, then a lot of masters students graduate with.
for that reason, I was hired in biotech industry at same job title as MSc-holders.
chances are, whitebread420, there won't be much you could tell me that i'm not already aware of. nexus has scientists. Some do TLC, others are experienced with NMR and GC/MS. I'm versed with CE-MS/LC-MS, as well as method dev.

and yea... the art of alkaloid extraction is primarily an exercise in A/B equilibria (protonation/deprotonation of the terminal amine group), which is analytical chemistry.