Please tell me right away if this is posted in the wrong section! I will gladly remove and relocate the thread!

I was just wondering if anyone considers MDMA a sacred substance like many entheogens? Many of my experiences on this substance have been truly remarkable. The love and empathy I have felt have been nothing short of amazing. I have had similar feelings, and even better feelings on entheogens but also cherish this drug because of the same effect it gives me every time I do it.

Also, has anyone ever smoked DMT while on MDMA? "Hippie-flipping" with MDMA + Shrooms or MDMA + LSD is very common and apparently very divine and was curious to know if similar reactions occur with DMT.

Thanks~

I think it's posted on the wrong site! A neuro toxic research chemical could never be considered a "sacred substance".
http://www.mdma.net/mdma/neurotox.html

^ That is a pretty subjective judgement right there.

Many (all) substances are toxic in very high doses. Notice this research you just linked used (in rats) 10mg/kg injected MDMA every 2 hours for 4 times total. For a 70kg person, that would be = 700mg x 4 = 2.8g !! Considering an average dose = 100mg, thats = 28 times an average dose. I think its quite possible one would die before ingesting that dosage, specially if tolerance-free.

You can also find neurotoxicity data for ibogaine and harmaline also using extreme doses, for example this publication:
Degeneration of purkinje cells in parasagittal zones of the cerebellar vermis after treatment with ibogaine or harmaline
E. O'Hearn, M.E. Mollivera
Neuroscience Volume 55, Issue 2, 1993, Pages 303-310

(linked here = https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=226662#post226662)

Now whenever we get such researches, the question is of course: Does that tell us anything about HUMANS, and ocasional recreational/therapeutic use in reasonable doses?

This isnt an easy question to answer. In the case of harmalas, while harmaline is usually only found in small amounts in b. caapi, it nevertheless IS found, and there have been neurological studies with people using ayahuasca (which contains different harmalas) regularly for decades, with no sign of damage.

MDMA has some more researches showing potential toxicity, but its not clear cut, again, how that related to typical recreational dosage. Im not at all an expert in MDMA and neither a doctor, but maybe others here who researched more this subject can share their thoughts.

In any case, toxicity doesnt necessarily relate to something being "sacred" or not (for example indigenous people using datura/brugmansia plants as sacred allies, and yet scopolamine/atropine are very toxic and dangerous).

The whole "sacred" word anyways will require one to take a specific stance that maybe not all here will subscribe to.

I can say that personally, I am not a fan of MDMA. I know of it's therapeutic potential in certain cases, and I know it has helped a lot of people open up emotionally, plus the fun aspect. For me, though, it always felt very superficial, empty. It felt too "artificial" (unrelated to its synthetic nature, more like a subjective judgement im making), like an over-release of serotonin that is compensated the next day with a very crappy hang over. Also there seem to be a lack of long-lasting insights for me, its more like, momentary fun. For that reason I dont take it anymore.

With the classic psychedelics, I dont usually have any hangover (at most being tired the next day, but that is often related with just not sleeping well because ive spent the night up), I get tons of insights that are long-lasting and life-changing, it feels (and according to published data, it is) very benign to my body and mind in the dosages I use. They aren't always fun, in fact often its hard work, but this makes it much more rewarding.

I think MDMA can be specially good for people who might not yet be ready to open up to the psychedelic world, but need some emotional liberation, to eliminate some psychological/emotional barriers and work with themselves. Also couple's therapy, and PTSD.

For those using MDMA recreationally, please take the typical safety cares. Often MDMA related casualties are because of hyperthermia or dehydration, so take breaks if dancing for long, and drink water or similar refreshing drinks (dont over-drink, there are also cases of over-hydration). Also another concern for MDMA is purity. We have been finding more and more cases of supposed MDMA that is actually methamphetamine, so that is a very dangerous issue because methamphetamine doses are very different, and so are effects. Check here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=24186

For this, it would be very recommended to get some colorimetric tests, and micro-dose any batch for first time.

Other safety recommendation is to avoid excessive redosing. Redosing during a session increases MDMA hangover and most likely toxicity too. Take one main dose and maybe max one redose per session.

Also, regarding MDMA and DMT, there are some threads about it, it seems to be very hit-and-miss. Please make sure not to smoke changa on MDMA for the potential dangers of MAOIs in changa and MDMA. Never mix MDMA with SSRIs or MAOIs.

MDMA is responsible for some of the most amazing social experiences in my life. I took a lot from it.

One thing though: as endlessness mentioned, the love felt while rolling is often superficial and very quickly goes away
when you start coming down...

I overdid it and now the magic is lost on me forever. I have use up all my allocated rolls. To me it's become a very
expensive stimulant with a terrible crash...

This is pretty much exactly my experience. Unfortunately the magic is gone for me now as well

The magic was gone, but now it's back.

If I measure standard doses and check hydration/nourishment etc, I can wake up fresh the next day.

Some binges in my earlier twenty's would take up to a week to recover, though this was mad excess and not even the way to go for having the best time. Total memory loss and embarrassing story's should be expected when abusing this substance. Oh and possibly being a victim of a car accident.

Delirium definately occurs at hover doses.

Wasn't the neurotoxicity of MDMA grossly overrated due to a mistake in the experiment - Methamphetamine mislabelled as MDMA?

Anything can be sacred - a modern (less than 100 years old) pharmaceutical drug can be sacred if you want it to - it's about your set. Take it ritually, within a symbolic framework of your own devising - that's sacred.

Pop pills nineteen to the dozen and it's not.

From my perspective, it's insightful and positive, but the positive push is a bit too monochromatic for my tastes unless I'm candyflipping it.

My question to you would be: how do you define sacred?

Personally, it doesn't fall into my own sacred cateogry, but perhaps it would matching your definition.

I've never had the privilege of being able to experience clean pure MDMA, but is on my shit list in life, and some day i hope to taste this material.

However, i have a few experiences with methylone, or beta-ketone-methylendioxy-n-methylcathinone, bk-mdma, the various other acronyms. Basically MDMA, except cathinone instead of amphetamine. Very similar molecules. The benefits i took away from these 2 experiences with methylone were immense, different than psychadelic insights, but nonetheless a very beneficial compound. Emotional resolution, lasting clarity of mind, being able to catch myself before i let bad thoughts take over, etc. I see much utility for this compound and other empathogens, USED RESPONSIBLY*, for therapeutic affects.

The beta-ketone analogs are also said to be less neurotoxic, and have less stimulation than mdma. Granted, they have less human use than mdmx's, but i felt no toxic affects or over-stimulation, and the body load felt much less than 2c-i in swims opinion. The come down off methylone was rather mellow as well, never felt the urge to redose, and overall very mentally clear for the next few days.

Too bad it was emergency scheduled by the DEA on oct. 6 2011. Yet another analog prohibited, only to be replaced with more novel, untested, and often less empathogenic analogs. So much harm is caused by these policies, restricting in some cases the safer alternatives, only to be replaced by more dangerous analogs.

*Methylone is a RC, and has a short recorded human use, it should only be used responsibly by those who are willing to respect it and know the risks associated with taking novel synthetics.

Yes and no.. There was this research which was supposed to imply a one-time dose caused permanent damage but indeed it was done with methamphetamine instead of MDMA.. Nonetheless, there are other researches which show possible toxicity. Here's an interesting publication which sums up several views:

http://www.erowid.org/re...ces/refs_view.php?ID=408

Interesting reading, many thanks for the link!

Looks like a "probably" with caveats.

This may be of interest:

http://www.guardian.co.u...ve&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

My memory capacity has certainly decreased since my raving days.

[quote=endlessness]^ That is a pretty subjective judgement right there.( end quote)



Thanks for this dignified and informative response. ( I guess the IMHO was missing from my first response.)

Yes ,I can imagine if one loves MDMA enough it could be "worshiped as sacred" in that particular circle . My reference of sacred was pertaining more to entheogenic "Plants of the Gods" as worshiped in antiquity.

As for MDMA neurotoxicity, well, I'll rest my case with the scientists who are leaning in the direction of minor neurodegenerative effects on chronic users. ( serotonergic axons).
Strange how it's so difficult to recapture the magic of those first trips. ( this is pretty much agreed on , even by it's biggest fans). I believe Dr. David Nichols has developed a range of RC's, his particular facination was developing "Non neurotoxic" analogues of MDMA. ( some of them are easily and legaly available over the net)

I'm glad in fact that some very experienced Nexians have rallied to the defense of a post on RC's, it certainly does broaden the scope for informative dicussion on a wide range of substances. The "Healthy Mood Boosters for all the Family" site I linked to, used to be a particular favourite of mine because of my penchant for pyscho- pharma. combos. That was until I met Sally and Dimitri.

Peace to ye all.

MDMA is extremely special, sacred and profound for me. I have read/heard/talked to so many for whom this is no longer the case and I suspect that the reason is always heavy use.

My MDMA history can be summed up as follows:

15 exposures since 1986

I roll nicely on 65 mgs and very very hard on 100 and can sort of molly-trip on anything over but the side effects truly bother me, so I keep my doses below 100.

Ann Shulgin said she took it so frequently it no longer worked its' magic on/for her. My sister in law says the same.

I consider myself very blessed.

My one roll this year was incredibly magic and very very memorable. I doubt I'll take it again until mid-late 2012, if then.

Regarding MDMA with DMT - 75% of the time that hasn't worked beyond a body load for me. I've watched others vape as much as 65 mgs in under a minute and get the same effect from DMT when rolling. And yet . . . . the one time out of four that it did work for me I brokethrough and went to Heaven . . no other way to describe it.

I wish I understood why those two don't dance well together (generally) in my head. . . .

Peace & Love

MDMA always results in a positive experience for me. It's a feel good drugs though I heard it was possible to get a badtrip on it, hard to imagine for me. But anyway...

Mescaline is Very similar to MDMA in small dosis. That's what attracted me to Mescaline, because with it you have the psychedelic effects + the MDMA like euphoric moodlift, hard to get a badtrip that way and you feel fkin great.

MDAI has given me quite a few amazing nights, not sure how relevant it is to this thread; but it seems to be non-neurotoxic.

I don't think its really in my sacred category but definitely the experiences I have with the pure love for people and the music (I am a DJ) have been worth the intake.

VERY interesting that it did work at one point though, I think one day when I am a bit more experienced to DMT alone I might give this a shot.

Seems quite relevant to the current discussion, it's one of those David Nicols analogues trying to substitute MDMA. Doesn't get such good reviews generally.
Could you elaborate on it's subjective effects? . Is there a hangover the next day?

Peace

in my youth i was rather rekless to say the least.. on my 17th birthday party i munched 4 1/2 grams of mdma before sunrise. not somthing id do these days, but it makes for a hell of a story! i couldnt pee for 3 days amongs other side effects lol so no, 2.8 is very far from lethal