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Phthalates: Warning to those using plastic containers/instruments in extractions Options
 
endlessness
#1 Posted : 10/19/2011 5:26:21 PM

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Plastic material will very commonly (always?) have plasticizers (different kind of phthalates) added to the material for improving their physical properties.

These compounds present important health dangers. They can affect the endocrine system and are related to several other important health issues. Who knows what even more toxic byproducts could be created when burning these substances for those smoking their alkaloids....

Often when someone is using a material, such as HDPE, they research if this material itself is compatible with a given solvent (like, say, a hydrocarbon). While in some cases, the published data may say that it is a safe material, it is still very possible that phthalates will leech into your solvents

Just because one doesnt 'feel' or 'see' anything does not mean one isnt smoking or ingesting significant amounts of plasticizers or other unwanted traces from plastic.

Ideally, one should not use ANY material containing plastic in an extraction, even those that are supposedly resistant. If one has used them, or when buying solvents that are sold in plastic containers, one should take extra steps to make sure these potentially harmful substances are removed


How to remove phthalates?


Phthalates are usually very soluble in oils/non-polar solvents, and have usually a low water solubility. Nonetheless, there are some phthalates that are more soluble in water

The ideal way to remove these substances would be to first of all, using glass/inert materials and containers, to dissolve your alkaloids in a dilute acidic solution (which should not dissolve most of these phthalates), filter, re-base, re-extract (with a solvent that was not stored in plastic). This, though, might not remove all of these substances since some phthalates can be water soluble, and it also wont work for those that have their solvents already stored in plastic.

The complementary way to remove phthalates is to salt out your alkaloids with fumaric acid (FASI/FASA/FASW methods), then wash your dried fumarates with cold/room temp acetone or IPA thoroughly, or dissolve the fumarates in minimal amount of hot IPA/Acetone and let it crystallize again in the freezer. These solvents should dissolve the phthalates and not dissolve your fumarates when its cold.
 

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Ice House
#2 Posted : 10/19/2011 7:01:52 PM

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proto-pax
#3 Posted : 10/19/2011 7:03:58 PM

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No joke, don't know why anyone would use plastic.
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corpus callosum
#4 Posted : 10/19/2011 7:59:31 PM

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HDPE2 is so ubiquitous that I understand why people may choose to use it but glass is so inert it has to be the way forward, ideally.I personally use a 4.5L jeroboam/rehoboam style glass bottle.Absolutely perfect for BLAB using the quoted amounts in the wiki.
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Caravel
#5 Posted : 10/21/2011 11:16:20 AM

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as long as your not wanting pyrex you can get lab glass so cheap it almost shocks me to think that anyone would even think of using something other than glass i mean hell you can buy a full extraction kit of lab glass for like 50 bucks blastic is a dangerous hastle i dont understand why anyone would even attempt to use it

only reason people seem to want pyrex is because so many claim its the "best" the only reason that professional labs use pyrex is incase they are making extremely exothermic or violent reactions that day pyrex is a safty issue -- for organic extraction you would never need anything pyrex pyrex is just an over priced brandname for us - and if your buying the non-brand name your only spending $4 on a beaker and $20 on a sep funnle amazes me people use plastic it really does - not to mention once you get your base set which would cost about 40-60 dollars a few months down the road you could spend 30 more and you'll have everything you need to make lab grade purity - or buy a jacketed water condencer and your instantly into high quality distilling - anyone ever tried to filter a liquid.. say 1 liter in 20 seconds with a high purity filter not gonna happen with your plastic jug and coffee filter.. its called a $15 vaccuum/filtering flask

sorry for the semi-rant but i just dont see the point in using anything less than glass
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kemist
#6 Posted : 10/22/2011 11:48:26 AM

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to my knowledge there is a plastic called teflone (PTFE) which should`n contain phtalates, or am I wrong
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Simon Jester
#7 Posted : 10/23/2011 8:05:26 PM

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LESS PLASTIC, MOAR PYREX
 
flouro
#8 Posted : 2/4/2012 10:28:15 PM

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https://en.wikipedia.org...opylene#Health_concerns
Quote:
Health concerns

In 2008, researchers in Canada asserted that quaternary ammonium biocides and oleamide were leaking out of certain polypropylene labware, affecting experimental results.[23] Since polypropylene is used in a wide number of food containers such as those for yogurt, Health Canada media spokesman Paul Duchesne, said the department will be reviewing the findings to determine whether steps are needed to protect consumers.[24]

The Environmental Working Group classifies PP as of low to moderate hazard.[25]


http://www.anoniem.org/?.../bpa-free-canning-lids/
Ball/Kerr seems have BPA in their lids.

Avoid all plastic in the LAB and in the kitchen.

Glass is better solution, will last longer when treated right. Does not leach easily if all (try to search documents of glass leaching, I tried, not really any definitive data about glass leaching than maybe under extreme conditions that I found about). Is super easy to wash. You can see through glass easily.

I have few BPA-free drinking bottles(recycling code 7) that I have not yet replaced with stainless steel and am using when EDCing(everydaycarrying). They scratch easily. When loaded with fruit smoothies you can taste the plastic slightly in the smoothie. Also the smoothies stick to the sides of the bottles and are very hard to clean.
 
3rdI
#9 Posted : 2/5/2012 8:21:56 AM

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Hello Endless, the fact that you take time out of your life to post things like this speaks volumes about your character, I thank
You for this.

My limonine comes in a HDPE container and this is the only plastic in my extra process.

I use it for the Q21Q21 jimjam tek, is the salting of the limo with vinegar sufficient to remove the nasties or should I do a further wash of the jimjam?

If it needs a further was what would be my best course of action?

Thanks for this info endlessmess, I think its easy to fall into the trap of thinking the extraction process is completely safe even though some dangerous chems are used, esp for those of us who have little knowledge of these things
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endlessness
#10 Posted : 2/5/2012 1:12:56 PM

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3rdI, the thing is, its hard to know if your plastic or plasticizers will leech into your solvent significantly because it depends on all sorts of variables I dont know, such as: How long it was stored, temperature of storage, if the HDPE had phthalates to begin with (Im still not sure if all do or just some) and if it did, what exact phthalate (because some are more water soluble others not), if its some fluorinated HDPE which supposedly is more resistant to solvents or normal HDPE, etc etc

Ive read different things regarding limonene and HDPE, to begin with. It says in some places limonene can permeate HDPE after extended storage. I have indeed seen that after a while HDPE containers holding limonene can become a bit deformed. I dont know if this necessarily means plastic is being dissolved in your limonene or if its just the limonene that is somehow trapped between the plastic formation and making it change shape without breaking it up.

What I do know is, Ive analysed some salted DMT from limonene that had been sold in HDPE from some ebay store (But that soon after it arrived it was put in a glass container), and there was no plastic or plasticizers in it. It might be I was lucky or that in general people have nothing to worry about.

In any case personally I always preffer to err on the side of caution, so I think if you have enough dmt and feel like being sure, you could either get some fumaric acid and acetone, freebase your acetates, pull with acetone, add FASA, and filter/dry crystals.. This should already get rid of the plastics because they should be dissolved in acetone while the dmt fumarate will precipitate.. A quick cold/dry acetone wash will make sure to get the last traces out, and then just filter/let it air dry. But for this you must get acetone and fumaric acid.

Im not sure what kind of solvents can wash dmt acetate without dissolving it, if the acetone/fumaric acid isnt an option...

If just acetone is a problem to get but not fumaric acid, you could use some hot FASW to dissolve your DMT freebase, then use sodium carb saturated solution to precipitate DMT crystals out of the water. This might also get rid of some of the water soluble phthalates that would stay in solution and not crystallize like DMT freebase. A cold sodium carb wash would, again, help getting rid of traces...

Lastly, next time you get limonene (or now already if you still have plenty), get a glass container to store it in.

Hope this helps
 
3rdI
#11 Posted : 2/5/2012 1:23:46 PM

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Thanks endlessness, I transfered my limo into a glass container this morning.

I will be cleaning all my extracts from now on just to be safe.

Thanks again.

INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT

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Doodazzle
#12 Posted : 2/5/2012 11:14:57 PM

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This thread should be a sticky.

A constant reminder up there just may save some people a lot of grief, potential health risks and of course the risk of lost spice.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." Albert Einstein

I appreciate your perspective.


 
MySmelf
#13 Posted : 2/6/2012 12:19:24 AM

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Caravel wrote:
as long as your not wanting pyrex you can get lab glass so cheap it almost shocks me to think that anyone would even think of using something other than glass i mean hell you can buy a full extraction kit of lab glass for like 50 bucks blastic is a dangerous hastle i dont understand why anyone would even attempt to use it

only reason people seem to want pyrex is because so many claim its the "best" the only reason that professional labs use pyrex is incase they are making extremely exothermic or violent reactions that day pyrex is a safty issue -- for organic extraction you would never need anything pyrex pyrex is just an over priced brandname for us - and if your buying the non-brand name your only spending $4 on a beaker and $20 on a sep funnle amazes me people use plastic it really does - not to mention once you get your base set which would cost about 40-60 dollars a few months down the road you could spend 30 more and you'll have everything you need to make lab grade purity - or buy a jacketed water condencer and your instantly into high quality distilling - anyone ever tried to filter a liquid.. say 1 liter in 20 seconds with a high purity filter not gonna happen with your plastic jug and coffee filter.. its called a $15 vaccuum/filtering flask

sorry for the semi-rant but i just dont see the point in using anything less than glass


My pyrex beakers and erlenmeyer flasks were about $4 each. Lab glass in general isn't very expensive even Pyrex stuff, I tend to prefer the way pyrex makes their glassware. Much better than say Kimex. But I also have some nice Sibata pieces that I really like.

You should add a glass buchner funnel with fritted glass filter to that vacuum flask. This is my favorite way to collect my freeze precipitated crystals and the vacuum dries them super fast!
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narmz
#14 Posted : 2/6/2012 4:53:01 AM

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I think HDPE can be safer for storing highly basic solutions, glass has a tendency to become brittle under these conditions, have seen this happen multiple times and after the last time decided the risk was too high and switched to HDPE.

When researching these, i came across this quote: 'Plastics made of polyethylene terephthalate (PET) or high-density polyethylene (HDPE) are safer than those made of PVC. ("PET" or "HDPE" may be printed on the bottom of the bottle.)' in regards to phthalates.

Also, this pdf here states 'the safest plastics for repeated use in storing food are made from high-density polyethylene (HDPE, or plastic #2), low-density polyethylene (LDPE, or plastic #4) and polypropylene (PP, or plastic #5).'

I think that HDPE is relatively safe for use in extractions during the base stage, and if you re-crystallize your fumarates in IPA - or use some sort of polar solvent somewhere along the line, phthalate contamination shouldn't be an issue.
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DeMenTed
#15 Posted : 2/14/2012 2:12:23 AM

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I assume this type of plastic is safe? Seeing as it's being used in lab equipment.
 
DeMenTed
#16 Posted : 2/14/2012 2:15:18 AM

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polypropylene seems to be fine and so does hdpe2
 
DeMenTed
#17 Posted : 2/14/2012 2:22:26 AM

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http://www.calpaclab.com/pages/chart.html

Hdpe2 has no reaction with acids or bases and doesnt degrade with aliphatic hydrocarbons for at least 30 days. If im wrong please point out my mistake Smile
 
benzyme
#18 Posted : 2/14/2012 2:52:36 AM

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Cole-Parmer gives that combo a B-rating (minor effect, slight corrosion or discoloration).

I'm with Caravel on this one. anything less than glass is ghetto-riggin'
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Coastal_Shaman
#19 Posted : 2/14/2012 4:09:12 AM

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Since I already did my first extraction before this thread came out I guess I will be using glass in the future instead of plastic. That won't be for a couple more years atleast though and I'm deffinetly not going to be discarding the spice I have now. The one thing that did go wrong with a plastic part in the extraction was the turkey baster. After sucking one pull of naphtha into it I placed the solvent in a separate glass to see if the first pull effected the turkey baster. It did and I discarded the baster and that 1st pull of about 30ml. I did not drip any solvent back into the mixture from the baster however so I am certain that it did not effect the basic solution. If I get cancer I guess it's just my time.. Live and learn.

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lewinii
#20 Posted : 2/14/2012 5:29:09 AM

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Thanks end. glass is the way to go
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