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Desmodium gyrans as an Ayahuasca analog Options
 
Ginkgo
#1 Posted : 10/12/2011 7:23:57 PM

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Hey,

I am, as nearly always, investigating new sources for our favored entheogens. I recently got busted for 2kg of MHRB, or 2kg of DMT as I'm stupidly enough charged with, which served as a warning sign for me: We need to find sources for these tryptamines that we can grow ourselves! I have two Desmodium gyrans syn. Codariocalyx motorius, the telegraph plant, and I see from Trout's notes on the genus Desmodium that they might be usable as an Ayahuasca analog. From the paper we can see that 2kg of dry leaves contains:

DMT: 82mg - 0.0041 %
DMT-N-oxide: 180mg - 0.0090 %
Bufotenine: 68mg - 0.0034 %
5-MeO-NMT: 97mg - 0.0049 %
5-MeO-DMT: 35mg - 0.0018 %
TOTAL alkaloids: 0.0231 %

This is, of course, not too potent as a DMT-source, but combined with all the other substances a high dose of the leaves may very well be usable in Ayahuasca or as an Ayahuasca analog. I'm therefore trying to calculate a proper, but safe, dosage. I've heard that 5-MeO-DMT shouldn't be combined with harmalas, how true is this? Any dosage information concerning a harmalas+5-MeO-DMT combo? And bufotenine, what is the dosage recommendations with harmalas? I know 100mg+ is active without harmalas according to Ott. Also, does anyone know if 5-MeO-NMT is active and in what dosages?

Any other information would also be more than welcome!
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
nen888
#2 Posted : 10/13/2011 1:03:13 AM
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..hey thanks Ginko, sounds like a potential power-plant,
re: 5meoNMT, in the only bioassay i've heard of the subject freaked at the physical sensations after 1mg IV (see entheogenic effects of NMT posts #14 and #27..so it could be a lot more active than NMT..it is found in quite a few indigenous snuffs of C. and S. America, so it is probably not extremely toxic, but really there's almost no data...

ps. there is no proof in the bluelight bioassay that the compound was pure 5meoNMT..i'd like to get my hands on some...
 
Ginkgo
#3 Posted : 10/13/2011 1:27:45 PM

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Thanks for your reply! The report on Bluelight is, as you say yourself, questionable, and I won't take it as the truth. But still it is important to take it into account - 5-MeO-NMT may very well be uncomfortable in high doses. Do you know anything about how much 5-MeO-NMT it is found in yopo and similar plants?
 
endlessness
#4 Posted : 10/13/2011 1:39:07 PM

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5-Meo-NMT has been found in virola-based snuff, in virola theiodora, in phalaris arundinacea, aquatica and tuberosa, in arundo donax. Its also been found 0.1% of bark of anadenanthera colubrina var cebil as oxalate (Iacobucci & Rúveda 1964), and 0,015% of bark of Anadenanthera peregrina bark (Schultes et al. 1977)

It's activity is unknown, some animal studies suggest it will have hallucinogenic activity.

If anybody can have access to this publication:

http://www.sciencedirect...le/pii/0006295264901741

Maybe we'll have a bit more clues on potential toxicity.

Trout's notes on simple tryptamines has plenty of info on TLC systems and colorimetric reagents to identify 5-MeO-NMT (but maybe not something you could easily do while out there in the mountains Razz )

Im also attaching this paper:

Indole bases of Desmodium gyrans (1972)
Phytochemistry, Volume 11, Issue 5, May 1972, Pages 1863-1864
S. Ghosal, U.K. Mazumder, R. Mehta



 
Ginkgo
#5 Posted : 10/13/2011 7:24:04 PM

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Thank you endlessness! I was able to find the paper you requested. It doesn't give much information, but it looks like 5-MeO-NMT is indeed active, but short-acting.
Quote:
5-Methoxy-N-methyltryptamine (5-MeO-NMT) possessed only one tenth the oxytocic potency of serotonin, and was less active than either bufotenine or 5-methoxytryptamine (5-MT). It was slightly more active than 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT). 5-Methoxy-N-methyltryptamine (5-MeO-NMT) proved to have a moderately disruptive effect on conditioned behavior, a dose of 0.5 mg/kg reducing response rates to 50% of normal. It was not so potent as bufotenine or 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) and, whereas these compounds acted for more than an hour, it was noted that the response rates of rats dosed with 5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine (5-MeO-NMT) were depressed for 45 min and then returned toward normal, indicating a short-acting effect.
 
nen888
#6 Posted : 10/18/2011 5:45:47 AM
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..that's great endlessness and ginko, thanksSmile
i've seen one other paper that found 5HT-2 and i think 5HT-7 activity for 5meoNMT..will search again..
it would be expected to be active..i don't give much credence to the bluelight report either...
 
wira
#7 Posted : 11/13/2011 2:03:51 PM

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Harmalas + 5-MeO-DMT can be tricky. I was at a conference years ago where numerous people were experimenting with tablets of harmine and 5-MeO-DMT (separate tablets), in varying doses of each and with wildly varying responses that could not be put down to simple differences in dose and were more likely to be due to differences in the individuals (biology, personality, mindset). Some people had wonderful experiences whereas others had the worst times of their lives. Some folks only got very mild effects even with generous doses.
Be careful!
 
endlessness
#8 Posted : 11/13/2011 2:18:51 PM

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Yeah this indeed has come up here in the nexus too:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=13240

It does seem like there are very strong variations with 5-MeO-DMT's metabolism, so those taking it for first time, in particular with harmalas, should definitely be careful and start at very low doses
 
 
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