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The FASA Method: A Summary - DMT Fumarate and Beyond Options
 
Infundibulum
#81 Posted : 3/3/2009 12:09:44 PM

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What does SWIY mean? FASA does not use citric acid. If SWIY's asking whether HCl can be used instead of fumaric acid, then the answer is no.

But if SWIY's asking whether he can use HCl instead of citric acid for the acidic aqueous extraction, then the answer is yes.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 

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damiana
#82 Posted : 3/3/2009 12:14:59 PM

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Swim means hcl instead of citric acid in acidic aqueous extraction. thanks, i'm guessing vit. c would work too. would 5-meo-dmt fumarate precipitate using the swiy's spice extraction, the fasa approach? swim's going to try in a week. swim will post results for all to know.
PEACE
 
Infundibulum
#83 Posted : 3/3/2009 12:24:38 PM

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SWIM cannot say with certainty whether 5-meo-dmt fumarate can be precipitated with FASA. But it's worth a try,

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
damiana
#84 Posted : 3/3/2009 12:43:18 PM

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Quote:
d) Xylene was siphoned off and washed with plenty of water. This was done because this xylene had traces of acetone and fumaric acid that one does not really want. Water washed away fumaric acid and acetone, leaving back clean xylene (plus the yellowy plant oils that dissolved into it). This xylene was used for the second pull etc etc. By this approach one knows when to stop pulling since at some point there will be no alkaloids in the xylene to be salted out. it took SWIM 7 100ml xylene pulls to exhaust 240g MHRB.


in this step, could the water also absorb dmt-fumarate if there was any left in the xylene that didn't precipitate out yet? so really swims question is how does one know when all the dmt-fumarate has percipitated out? swim would guess its when the mix no longer clouds up when adding the fasa to the xylene? does it need to sit over night?
PEACE
 
Infundibulum
#85 Posted : 3/3/2009 12:50:33 PM

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It would if dmt fumarate were present. SWIM tells me that after adding FASA in the xylene pull, it goes cloudy, pretty cloudy. These are the fumarate salts and it takes them some time to precipitate.

As long as the xylene is clear, sitting on top of the precipitated fumarates, it can be safely assumed to be devoid of any dmt-fumarate. This xylene contains traces of acetone and fumaric acid which can be easily removed by washing the xylene with water, as mentioned.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
damiana
#86 Posted : 3/3/2009 10:05:55 PM

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Quote:
But if SWIY's asking whether he can use HCl instead of citric acid for the acidic aqueous extraction, then the answer is yes.


Before swim's foaf does this foaf was wondering if anyone has actually tried HCl instead of citric acid, so foaf doesn't lose some product. how does the pKa effect the precipitation? previously it was stated that citric acid had a pKa of 3.13 and fumaric acid had a pKa of 3.43. so it takes longer to crystalize then does citric acid or something. Could someone maybe explain this, swim is very interested. Just curious how it relates to HCl, and why HCl would work cause somewhere swim read it would be a dodgy idea for iv. maybe no relation. thanks
PEACE
 
damiana
#87 Posted : 3/3/2009 10:27:16 PM

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Quote:
6) wash the precipitated fumarate salts with acetone, then take them out and let them dry.


Should this be done only once? and could naphtha or clean xylene or toluene be used instead? thanks again.
PEACE
 
SpasticSpaz
#88 Posted : 3/24/2009 3:14:38 PM
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This may have been answered already, but I didn't see it.

Is the form of DMT naturally present in MHRB soluble in acetone?
 
amor_fati
#89 Posted : 3/24/2009 7:06:33 PM

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No, and supposedly you could use acetone to defat the plant material directly (apparently unnecessary with FASA, though).
 
ahksar0
#90 Posted : 4/5/2009 8:57:18 PM

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SWIM has followed the original tek outlined on page one using ~50g MHRB, the three CASA pulls were combined, then decanted and filtered twice. However after the three day wait following the addition of the FASA to the three CASA pulls SMIM has found there to be a layer of reddish sludge < 1cm deep at the bottom of the container (presumably MHRB particulate that made it through filtration and has settled).SWIM was considering filtering out sludge, drying, then dissolving it in water. once in water DMT fumarate will dissolve and the mixture can be decanted and filtered (again). Later, water can be evaporated or mixed w/ sodium carbonate to produce freebase. Anyone have any advice how best to extract desired actives from sludge, or if this solution seems workable?
 
T
#91 Posted : 4/5/2009 10:58:12 PM
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ahksar0 wrote:
SWIM has followed the original tek outlined on page one using ~50g MHRB, the three CASA pulls were combined, then decanted and filtered twice. However after the three day wait following the addition of the FASA to the three CASA pulls SMIM has found there to be a layer of reddish sludge < 1cm deep at the bottom of the container (presumably MHRB particulate that made it through filtration and has settled).SWIM was considering filtering out sludge, drying, then dissolving it in water. once in water DMT fumarate will dissolve and the mixture can be decanted and filtered (again). Later, water can be evaporated or mixed w/ sodium carbonate to produce freebase. Anyone have any advice how best to extract desired actives from sludge, or if this solution seems workable?


SWIM had the same results after his FASA, but he thinks the fumarate is there as when dried in the oven it becomes sparkly and it's slightly hygroscopic like the fumarate salts supposed to be as he read..
He knows that filtering won't clean it up.
Acetone wash might work if you dry it in the oven first under 150 C. It will never completely dry on it's own and will loose product if SWIY does acetone washes that way.
"Once I thought I'd been offered a joint but had been given angel dust. I smoked it, but had horrific hallucinations - oh my God, I was out of control.
I saw eight of everything and believed that I could fly.
That was when I stopped taking drugs. I started doing them to be a rebel, then realised that doing drugs just meant I was being an idiot.
Now I hate drugs. I constantly tell kids to stay away from them - they are the root of all evil." - David Gest
 
ahksar0
#92 Posted : 4/6/2009 1:07:08 AM

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Even if the fumarate salts are mixed in with the MHRB particles, which SWIM is sure they are, they are not very usable in that form considering dosing problems alone (who knows how much DMT per mg of red stuff there is), that is assuming one wanted to consume MHRB gunk in the first place. SWIM attempted an acetone wash with no success, particulate did not separate from DMT crystals in any noticeable way. leaving only the water dissolution idea from what swim can tell. Perhaps if DMT fumarate was soluble in something that evaporates more readily than water the salts could be better extracted from the gunk (SWIM is not familiar with alternative solvents that could be viable, perhaps naptha?)
 
T
#93 Posted : 4/6/2009 4:05:38 PM
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Dmt Fumarate is very soluble in methanol (and probably ethanol). The problem is the same with water, that the purple junk is soluble too, so it won't separate. I think they are soluble in the same things so washing them might not be an option. SWIM gave up and decided that he'll just add this gunk to his A/B extraction the next time, but he would probably basify and pull with naphtha or else.
"Once I thought I'd been offered a joint but had been given angel dust. I smoked it, but had horrific hallucinations - oh my God, I was out of control.
I saw eight of everything and believed that I could fly.
That was when I stopped taking drugs. I started doing them to be a rebel, then realised that doing drugs just meant I was being an idiot.
Now I hate drugs. I constantly tell kids to stay away from them - they are the root of all evil." - David Gest
 
Attention All Shipping
#94 Posted : 4/19/2009 4:38:38 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked before I just wanted to check if in the acetone wash of precipitated salts from Xylene it needs to be with anhydrous acetone or if normal acetone will do the trick just as well?
Thanks
 
MrMeOMy
#95 Posted : 5/20/2009 12:59:08 AM
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Hey guys swim is new to all this and was wondering first how long each of these processes should take and secondly if I have been reading right this is an alternative to the way of extracting mhrb to the lovely elf spice without the most damaging of the effects that go with it... Please understand swim is really new to this and was to not wanting to deal with the dangers posted in the original and please let me know so I can pass this on to swim thanks...


T-Wiz
 
Eclectic
#96 Posted : 6/7/2009 2:34:09 PM

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Hello all, this is my first post. I really really love this place. One of the best forums I've seen in a long while. Great info and the people here aren't afraid to think and make their own new ways.. A testament to that is all the teks..

Now the one thing that threw me off was that FASA has it's own forum and this topic is stickied. I thought "Oh well it must be a new method and these people don't seem to really question if it will work, it seems to be a given it works".. I got all excited and ran out and bought my acetone and ordered up 112 grams of MHRB, citric and fumaric acids, and Caapi Copy/some THH..

The last time I tried to extract (all of this and current activities in a country where it's legal mind you Pleased ) I did the lye, naphtha shabang. I didn't do very well. I needed a better setup for it.. Plastic turkey baster isn't gonna help much when dealing with lye and naphtha. This FASA tek looked like the answer to my prayers. After 3 years or so, I decided it was time.. like Simba, it was time to go back to Pride Rock and look out over the DMT savannah..

I think fate was kind to me and my compulsitory nature.. I was grinding MHRB and it broke my grinder after 20 grams.. I thought "ok this gives me a little to try, get my methodology down, my technique.. see where I have problems".. This turned out to be a good idea. I also ended up with the sludge at the bottom, and if I hadn't already fumarated it might not have been a problem.. but alas.. I thought maybe the little bit of sediment that managed to make it through 2 metal screens and a coffee filter would have the fumarate mixed in it at the end.. I poured off the Mimosa/FASA/citric mix and evaporated the bottom layer of sludgy stuff..

This being experimental and not wanting to waste my MAOI's (which I will use with later tries, maybe a more simple extract) I decided the way to go, as I don't have any stigma or problem with this, was rectal. As I couldn't weigh it, I figured this: If it was 20 grams and I only am using the bottom layer which hypothetically has a little fumarate after 2 days and possible some DMT citrate after evaporating the little amount of naptha, I decided to just test the waters.. I took a razor, scraped up a line of it.. maybe 1/10th of the pan altogether.. I mixed it in a few milliliters of water in a small cup. I have a bulb syringe type of thing (I made it with a glass part of a dropper bottle and a contact solution bottle and cap, works great) and I used it.. I figure, if all the DMT managed to fumarate in the bottom (not likely I think) then the most the whole pan could be at 2% yield is 400mg's.. the least, somewhere far under that... .5 would be like 100 in the whole pan. I was mainly looking for a sign of psychoactivity.

About 30 minutes after rectal administration of a little acidic goo in water, which dissolved nice and easy and didn't burn, I felt the characteristic tryptamine uplift.. color enhancement.. no visuals other than red being really really red.. yellow being really yellow, and so on and so forth.. but it was definitely active.. I believe when smoking I've heard this referred to as the 'tryptamine giggles' before... it was about like that. Activity = good.

I'm evaporating the whole shabang now, the acetone is already mostly gone (made this decision this morning, which is like day 4 of it sitting around) and it's turning into the same sort of sticky goo the bottom gunk was like.. I figure I might dissolve it in a measured amount of water and try 1/4th, possibly orally with an MAOI this time.. If I get a decent effect, awesome.. if it's there but light, I'll then take the other 3/4th's... By my logic, if it was roughly 20 grams of bark to start, even with the FASA being tarnished by the sediment, that means a max 2% yield of maybe 400 mg's when evaporated (and jungle spice? I have a limited understanding, I must UTFSE sometime and read).. 1% yield would be 200mg's or so.. .5 would be 100mg's or so.. so 1/4th could actually be a little high, some people seem to take 50 mg's or so for oral dosing.. but if it's extremely potent somehow, it'd still only be 100 mg's at 1/4th of what is evaporated. If that sounds wrong, lemme know? Pleased lol..

A few questions, one of which was answered already by you lovely people (is mimosa's original DMT-form acetone soluble) so lemme think of my others...

I rushed into the FASA tek in this sticky topic.. let me ask.. has anyone done it and actually yielded DMT fumarate at the end as it's listed? I'm wondering from people saying almost no one has done it (didn't see it until after I decided to order) if anyone has done it or uses it regularly..

DMT in Mimosa isn't acetone soluble, so the citric acid saturation allows the DMT to be soluble in the acetone while also making it into the citrate salt, correct?

Is DMT's original form in mimosa soluble in alcohol? Isopropanol? (real hard time finding out about ISO solubility for some reason)

If it is, and I know this doesn't have a lot to do with FASA anymore, but could one saturate vodka with Fumaric Acid to have an alcohol extract of mimosa (like one person mentioned their alcohol tincture) with DMT fumarate in it?

If DMT is soluble in alcohol (like a vodka, cant access everclear here w/o permit) then condensed down by evaporating a bit, then fumaric acid was added, would that have benefits over whatever form the DMT would be in from just pulling with alcohol? Is fumarate better tolerated than whatever salt is in mimosa?

Basically the answers to these questions might help change how I use the sorta-failed FASA extract I have evaporating right now.. is there a good way to get more of the mimosa out? It doesn't smell much like the mimosa somehow, the acidity and tartness overpowers it which is nice.. it doesn't seem as astringent for some reason either. I'm thinking if I can do some basic (simple) extraction until I'm ready to try STB/lazyman again or something, that might be better.. although I really like working with acetone.. I have glass containers for it, and it evaporates so fast. Maybe I shouldn't give up on this tek.. I mean, it basically worked.. If I had taken my citric acid acetone MHRB extract and let it sit for a day or a few hours and poured it off so the sludge on the bottom was gone (still can't get how it makes it through a coffee filter lol) then maybe the rest of this tek would work fine..

If I try it again I'm gonna make my acetone anhydrous. Do you people think this is worth pursuing? I'm not a guy with loads of money, mind you.. but I'm not that good with the lye and whatnot it seems.. hate working with lye and naptha.. but I don't want to waste materials..

Could an acetone/citric extraction possibly work if you then added like.. ammonia (little easier to work with) to basify and split the citric off leaving freebase DMT in the solution.. and then added in naptha (at least it's not lye) and evaporated the naptha? Anyone heard of any tek like that? Maybe it's a new one and I just made one up.. I got the idea basically from Agent Lemon DXM extraction.. In that, you took syrup basically and added ammonia to take the hydrobromide salt apart, and it made the freebase in the solution.. then you added naptha and something about it, I guess it was then non-polar soluble, so it went in the naptha.. separate off the naptha layer and evaporate.. would the same work for DMT?

To simplify what I just said, it would go
CASA extract of MHRB..
ammonia added, probably an equal amount to the amount of acetone to make the DMT freebase?
naphtha would then pull the freebase into it.. throw out the MHRB acetone.. evap naphtha to yield freebase DMT.. could then fumarate?

All of that relies the DMT being freed from the citrate bonds (but they'd be necessary to get it out of the mimosa if I'm understanding it right) and pulled into the non-polar layer.. and would any mimosa junk like the redness bleed into the naptha? I'm thinking it wouldn't, acetone is what, polar/non-polar mixed somehow or something? If that makes sense and that's all scientifically sound, it might be a good way to not work with Lye.. maybe people don't do that because ammonia isn't strong enough to un-citrate DMT but it is strong enough to un-bromide DXM? Any chemists in the house?

Alright, that's a crazy first post, you people are gonna get annoyed with me, so I'll stop for now.. but as you can see, I've been lurking awhile and have lots of questions and ideas, and with that said, I hope to be a good contributor to this community and am glad I'm now registered and can ask questions and propose my own ideas.
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Observant
#97 Posted : 6/11/2009 12:49:57 AM

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Has anyone ever tried to smoke the Fumarate Salts ?

I was just curious if this is somehow possible ...
Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
soulfood
#98 Posted : 6/11/2009 12:55:11 AM

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Yup. It works, but freebase is far, FAR more effective.

I only use fumerate for oral administration.
 
Observant
#99 Posted : 6/11/2009 1:37:39 PM

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Maybe if one mixes the fumarate with Llipta / Ashes and a drop of water - it can be smoked in a water bong via Leaf Bed or Sandwiching with near Freebase type of Experience .
Of course only in a country where its legal and when proper freebasing isnt suitable ...
Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

All Hypnotizing Hypnotizes Hypnotizing
 
soulfood
#100 Posted : 6/11/2009 2:49:35 PM

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Why wouldn't freebasing be suitable?

Fumerate only vapourises about 50% as quick as freebase does making it a little more difficult to deliver and effective dose. There's also a greater chance of burning it.
 
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