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The FASA Method: A Summary - DMT Fumarate and Beyond Options
 
Entropymancer
#1 Posted : 11/9/2008 1:14:30 AM

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The FASA Method: DMT Fumarate and Beyond

("FASA" stands for Fumaric Acid Saturated Acetone. I'll use that acronym throughout this post to refer to anhydrous acetone that has been saturated with fumaric acid. 100 mL of acetone can dissolve about 618 mg of fumaric acid)

I had no involvement in discovering the methods described below; many thanks go out to Infundibulum, 69Ron, amor_fati, and all others who have helped in pioneering these developements. All credit goes to them.

I just thought that the FASA method deserved its own thread. It really seems like it's the future of DMT extractions. It's led to the developement of an extraction tek that doesn't use lye, naphtha, or xylene/toluene/etc. That's a huge plus in terms of making extractions safer (people don't have to worry about handling caustic lye solutions and naphtha fumes). And the xylene/FASA method seems like an improvement over naphtha extractions for people who still want to use lye-based teks (xylene/toluene are better solvents than naphtha, but you can't freeze-precipitate and evaporating them was a pain in the ass).

All the info here was compiled from two threads: Pure DMT Fumarate from freebase DMT and Discussing Alternative Spice Extraction Techniques. I've just trimmed out all the really juicy bits from the threads and put it all in one place for easy reading.

Personally, I had stopped checking the 'Pure DMT Fumarate from freebase DMT' thread after the initial discussion of precipitating DMT fumarate from acetone. I had no idea how many new developements I was missing! I'd seen the term "FASA" getting thrown around, but it took some searching for me to figure out what it was referring to.






Here's a quick summary of what this covers:
* An easy way to make DMT fumarate from freebase DMT
* A DMT extraction method that doesn't require lye or typical hydrocarbon solvents
* Two ways to convert DMT fumarate to freebase DMT, neither one using lye or hydrocarbon solvents
* A way to obtain DMT (and other "jungle spice" alkaloids) from xylene or toluene without evapoting
* A potential improvement to mescaline extraction teks (still needs to be tested)







Freebase DMT to DMT Fumarate

Initially, some folks discovered that if you dissolve DMT freebase in acetone and add FASA, DMT fumarate will precipitate out of the solution. While DMT freebase is soluble in acetone, DMT fumarate is not.

69Ron wrote:
Here’s the quick tech:

1) Completely dissolve 1000 mg of freebase DMT in 50 ml of acetone.
2) Completely dissolve 309 mg of fumaric acid in another batch of 50 ml of acetone.
3) Mix for 1 minute and evaporate at room temperature to give DMT fumarate.


Now that's kinda neat in itself, it provides an easy route to the one salt of DMT that's known to exist stably as a solid. Regarding DMT fumarate, 69Ron commented:

69Ron wrote:
DMT fumarate forms completely colorless, long clear pointed crystals in MEK that look like the kryptonite crystals seen in the superman movies. They will be lightly yellow or amber colored if impure.

DMT fumarate is best for snorting, taking sublingually, injecting, taking intra-rectally, or taking orally with an MAOI. If a person wants to smoke DMT, they need freebase DMT. SWIM thinks smoking it is a waste. The trip is too short. SWIM prefers the other routes of administration because the trip is much longer lasting.


Infundibulum got curious and did some solubility testing of DMT fumarate in different solvents:

Infundibulum wrote:
5ml of methanol, ethanol, isopropanol or ecetone were saturated with SWIM's dmt fumarate, then the solvent siphoned off and evaporated. The residue was weighted. The results are:

Acetone : practically 0mg/ml (there was a very thin layer of residue left, impossible to scrape

IPA : ~1mg/ml. The residue was still too little to be weighted properly

Ethanol : ~5mg/ml

methanol: ~10mg/ml


This discovery opened the way for several other developements.







A Safer DMT Extraction - No Lye, No Naphtha

For one thing, it inspired a DMT extraction that doesn't require any lye or hydrocarbon solvents (like naphtha, toluene, etc.). This tek uses only citric acid, fumaric acid, acetone, sodium carbonate, and water. This makes it much safer for the layman than playing with strong lye solutions and being exposed to the vapors of hydrocarbon solvents.

Infundibulum wrote:
The purely imaginary method described below does work, but it works really really slow. SWIM's FOAF was able to extract ~100mg freebase alkaloids from 10g of MHRB. This method does not discriminate between the alkaloids that are extracted (j.spice, d., d-Noxide etc etc), this is however a subject of discussion.

The tek:

1) dissolve 5g of citric acid per 100ml acetone

2) take the shredded/powdered bark and cover it with enough citric acid acetone. Incubate in a warm place, gently agitating every so often. After 2-3 hours, filter off the citric-acid saturated acetone extract and set aside (this solution should have acquired the dark reddish colour of MHRB). Repeat 2 more times.

3) saturate acetone with fumaric acid. Acetone can hold ~20mg/ml fumaric acid if let for a day or so to completely dissolve.

4) Add the fumaric acid-saturated acetone in the citric acid-saturated acetone MHRB extract. One cannot put too much.

5) Set it aside and wait for 2-3 days. One should see a yellowish precipitate on the bottom.

NOTE: In step 2 one is making an acetone extraction and at the same time converting the alkaloids their citrate salt. After addition of the fumaric acid-saturated acetone in step 4, there is an interconversion of alkaloid-citrate to alkaloid-fumarate salt, like:

dmt-citrate + fumaric acid <-> dmt-fumarate + citric acid

citric acid has a pKa of 3.13, while fumaric acid's pka is 3.43. Fumaric acid is a weaker acid and thus in the above reaction one should have most of the dmt as a citrate salt and just a tiny amount as a fumarate salt. dmt-fumarate however is totally insoluble in acetone (while dmt-citrate is perfectly soluble), and it precipitates as soon as it forms. The insolubility of dmt-fumarate acts therefore as a "sink" and given time all of the dmt-citrate will eventually convert to dmt-fumarate and precipitate out.

6) wash the precipitated fumarate salts with acetone, then take them out and let them dry.

7) dissolve the alkaloid-fumarate salts in 5ml of tap water, then and then add saturated sodium carbonate to make the solution basic. The alkaloids will be freebased and the solution will become milky. In 3 days they will precipitate out forming nice needle-like crystal in the basic solution. At this stage, one can filter the solution (nasty procedure since the crystals tend to be sticky and waxy) and retrieve any left alkaloids by dissolving them in acetone.

8 ) Let the crystals dry, wash them with acetone (it removes any traces of sodium corbonate which is totally insoluble in acetone), evaporate the acetone and enjoy the product.

For the FOAF of SWIM 30mg were for a good STRONG experience.









DMT Fumarate To Freebase DMT - Two Methods Without Using Lye or Naphtha

You'll notice that step 7 is quite a developement in itself: For the first time, someone has presented a viable method for crystalizing freebase DMT out of water. Infundibulum also posted a pictorial of step 7, showing the formation of the DMT freebase; this has been attached as a pdf.

Of course, that method can be a bit messy, so for those disinclined to attempt it, there's an alternate method of converting the fumarate to freebase without using any nonpolar solvents (of course dissolving the fumarate salt in water, basifying to pH 10+, and extracting with naphtha works as well):

69Ron wrote:
1 - Mix DMT fumarate with 1 part calcium hydroxide (calcium carbonate should work as well).
2 - Add enough water to make it wet and mix. (Freebase the DMT again)
3 - Spread it out and let it dry completely.
4- Dissolve it in acetone and filter out the solids. (At this point only alkaloids like DMT should dissolve)
5- Evaporate the acetone to get nearly pure freebase DMT.









FASA Method Precipition From Xylene - No More Need to Evaporate!

But new methods of extracting spice without using lye or hydrocarbon solvents wasn't the only developement this inspired. Some intrepid experimenters also discovered that FASA can also be used to precipitate DMT out of some other solvents besides acetone! This was initially discovered with xylene (again, posted by Infundibulum):

Infundibulum wrote:
a) first xylene pull (coloured piss yellow) goes in an appropriate container.

b) FASA was added dropwise, xylene became cloudy due to the salted alkaloids. One cannot put too much FASA.

c) solutions was left overnite at room temperature allowing for the alkaloid-fumarate to sediment. Now one got them out of the xylene without the need to evaporate it!

d) Xylene was siphoned off and washed with plenty of water. This was done because this xylene had traces of acetone and fumaric acid that one does not really want. Water washed away fumaric acid and acetone, leaving back clean xylene (plus the yellowy plant oils that dissolved into it). This xylene was used for the second pull etc etc. By this approach one knows when to stop pulling since at some point there will be no alkaloids in the xylene to be salted out. it took SWIM 7 100ml xylene pulls to exhaust 240g MHRB.

e) fumarate alkaloids were washed 3 times with some acetone to remove any residual xylene and oily impurities.

f) Then they were dried in the oven at 70 Celsius until pretty hard.


This is a great developement! It circumvents the tedious process of evaporating xylene. Since the "jungle spice" alkaloids seems to precipitate as the fumarate as well, this will save jungle spice extractors a lot of time. And from an economic standpoint, this allows the same batch of xylene to be re-used repeatedly for subsequent pulls. If I ever get around to extracting another batch of spice, I'll probably use xylene for all my pulls.

This method of precipitating the fumarate salt from nonpolar solvents has been confirmed to work with both xylene and toluene. It does not work with "Bartoline Premium Low Odour White Spirit" (when the FASA is added, the fumaric acid precipitates immediately, not DMT fumarate); it therefor seems likely that the FASA precipitation would not work with typical naphtha extractions (but we can freeze-precipitate from naphtha, so there's really no need for it). If anyone cares to try, it would be useful to know whether this method of DMT fumarate precipitation might work with DCM, or d-limonene.








Theoretical - An Improvement on Mescaline Extractions?

Lastly, one more implication needs to be investigated. If mescaline fumarate is insoluble in xylene and toluene, then it seems quite likely that the FASA precipitation method would greatly simplify mescaline extractions. No more careful titrations; no more guessing how much mescaline is in there and adding an appropriate amount of acid to obtain the salt. Just add some FASA to the xylene or toluene extraction, and out crashes mescaline fumarate! If anyone is doing a mescaline extraction at the moment, I highly encourage testing this.







Some Basic Info on Fumaric Acid and Anhydrous Acetone

Fumaric acid is used as a pH adjuster in the winemaking business, so check your local winemaking/homebrew shop to obtain it. If you're in the US, it can be ordered online. (No sources are allowed on this board, but check for links at the bottom of this thread)

Most people trying these methods will be buying acetone from a hardware store. Hardware store acetone is generally not anhydrous, it contains some amount of water and/or alcohols. Amor_fati provided a link from bluelight that describes how to dry your hardware acetone using epsom salts.

Quote:
You can easily turn hardware store acetone into anhydrous acetone with the simple process I've outlined below. To do this, you'll need to go to Home Depot or Lowes and get the following items: a 1 liter can of acetone and a bag of epsom salts.

Heat some epsom salts on an aluminum foil covered baking sheet in the oven for 2 hours at 400 degrees F. After 2 hours of heating, the epsom salts have now been turned into anhydrous magnesium sulphate. Crazy huh?

Take 10-20 grams of your greyish ash looking anhydrous magnesium sulphate and pour it directly into your can of hardware store acetone. Shake the can vigorously for a few minutes to circulate the magnesium sulphate and then let it settle for 24 hours. The magnesium sulphate will absorb all of the water and/or alcohol from the hardware store acetone and sink it to the bottom of the can where it shall remain forever.

Therefore from now on, never pour from the can, instead use a glass eye dropper or glass pipette (glass straw) to reach down inside of the can to extract however much anhydrous acetone you'll be requiring. Always stay away from the bottom of the can. Once the can get's about half way down, discard and repeat the process with a fresh can of acetone. Always use glass hardware when using acetone. Acetone will melt plastic.




Happy spicing everyone!
 
 
amor_fati
#2 Posted : 11/9/2008 10:29:06 AM

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Excellent work! SWIM feels bad that he hasn't been able to contribute more to this.

SWIM believes that acetone drying method to have been developed by Le Junk, a member of several forums and seemingly the resident expert on cocaine purification.

What's needed now is a PDF that summarizes all of the standard A/B and STB variations to date as an open-ended tek, and then expounds on FASA methods--retrieving the salts and converting back into freebase. What would be even better is a tryptamine extraction handbook that proposes a minimalistic kit of everything one would need to extract DMT, 5-HO-DMT, 5-MEO-DMT, harmaloids, and psilocybes.
 
The Traveler
#3 Posted : 11/9/2008 8:41:25 PM

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Another incredible, contributional work from you Entropymancer!

I saw you already added your information to the DMT Extraction Overview thread, tops.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Observant
#4 Posted : 11/10/2008 3:03:20 PM

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Nice work!
Had he more quickly realized just who they were,he would have shown them more respect.Had he tried harder to fathom their brilliant minds,he would have taken more of their teachings to heart.Had he more clearly understood the purpose of their being,
he would have more vigorously tried to assist them.They were truly honorable; he was sadly prejudiced.
They were exceedingly well informed; he was grossly ignorant.They were totally indefatigable; he so often, and so quickly,gave up. Still, for many years there was a strong inter-species alliance between the Eleven-Eleven of the Half-way Realm, their Seraphic Associates,and their flesh-and-blood friend, a common mortal. Much was accomplished, many profited, and, there’s only one regret...They could have achieved so much more...

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Infundibulum
#5 Posted : 11/10/2008 7:58:19 PM

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Really nice work Entropymancer, thanks for bringing this thing to light. SWIM's FOAF finally wrote a tek for the use of FASA in extractions, any comments are highly appreciated.


Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
amor_fati
#6 Posted : 11/12/2008 5:47:05 AM

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Wonderful work! Thanks for the credit, as well. It's been quite strange for SWIM to consider that he was one of the first in the world to employ these techniques.
 
Jorkest
#7 Posted : 11/13/2008 3:46:19 PM

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SWIM really likes making Fumarate from Freebase...its really sweet seeing those long crystals come out
it's a sound
 
geeg30
#8 Posted : 11/15/2008 6:19:40 PM

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Just a couple of quick questions:-

Is it just Fumaric acid that can be used - what about mallic, tartaric etc? (fumaric acid is quite expensive)

Also has anyone tried using solvents other than xylene and toluene for eg DCM?
Here you!!! Gonnaenodaethat

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Entropymancer
#9 Posted : 11/15/2008 6:28:36 PM

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Malic and tartaric acid have not been tried. It's possible that DMT malate or tartrate will exist stably as a solid; I don't know whether either has been attempted. Since DMT fumarate is the only salt known to have this property, it's what has been investigated.

If malic or tartaric acid does work, that would certainly lower the costs of this method.
 
geeg30
#10 Posted : 11/15/2008 11:56:13 PM

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A quick scan of other sites has the maleate salt being similar to fumarate salt (stands to reason as they are chemically similar).

AnySWIM's want to try and see if it works? Might not precipitate like fumarate salt though in the Acetone.

would be interesting to see though (and much cheaper) - swim will try and get some to test with acetone although swim doesn't have any DMT freebase to convert to maleate.


Here you!!! Gonnaenodaethat

"Iceberg???? - What Iceberg????"
 
Infundibulum
#11 Posted : 11/16/2008 2:01:34 AM

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Maleic acid may work but I have a feeling that it may not work as well.

DMT and fumaric acid may get to "marry" together very harmonically (see attached picture). The dmt salt is held together not only by the ionic bonds between the carboxyles of the fumaric acid and the amine of DMT, but by the potentially two extra hydrogen bonds between the nitrogen's hydrogen on the indole ring and the rest of fumarate's oxygens.

This may explain why dmt fumarate forms so fast and so easily in an non-aqueous environment such as acetone. The molecules "lock" with each other. On the other hand, SWIM's FOAF has recently observed that mescaline fumarate forms in a much slower rate in acetone from freebased mescaline and fumaric acid. Mescaline's structure does not give the potential of those two extra hydrogen bonds.

Of course all of the above is not any scientifically proven facts, just mere speculations. The image of the salt itself is also speculative!

Maleic acid on the other hand is a ciz-isomer of fumaric acid. Its cis- symmetry may not give it the potential of those extra hydrogen bonds.

But it is definitely worth a try! it may not form very fast but I am confident that something will definitely form.
Infundibulum attached the following image(s):
dmt fumarate bond.JPG (38kb) downloaded 12,222 time(s).

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
TmC47
#12 Posted : 11/16/2008 4:07:01 PM

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I'm just wondering: the price of fumaric acid in the catalogs is around $30 per kg. Why would price be a reason to try other salts? Am I not looking at the right quality or some such? Are you guys using deuterated compounds?
benzyme wrote:
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Infundibulum
#13 Posted : 11/16/2008 4:25:43 PM

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TmC47 wrote:
I'm just wondering: the price of fumaric acid in the catalogs is around $30 per kg. Why would price be a reason to try other salts? Am I not looking at the right quality or some such? Are you guys using deuterated compounds?


No, we're using tritiated compounds so that we can measure yields in the scintillator.

I'm joking of course, why would anyone ever need to use deuteriated compounds??

Even though I have never personally being involved in any extractions whatsoever, some person's friend of a friend would admit that any fumaric acid will work. Depending on one's source, price can vary alot. This guy got fumaric acid from a commercial source where it was sold as a health supplement (good because it is food grade) and it was somewhat pricey. But it is enough for many many uses, and considering the beauty of the method he never regretted a single penny he paid.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
geeg30
#14 Posted : 11/17/2008 1:41:07 PM

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Swims having problems finding Fumaric acid in the UK. Health food shop prices are about £25 for 45g - and even then its hard to get (googles not a friend on this one). Another option swim is entertaining is buying Fumaric acid from chemical manufacturers in the food industry by the KG. Although one reply just in states they only sell Sodium Fumarate and another has yet to reply. Swim has no problem getting Malic acid though,(which is totally different to Maleic acid - gets confusing) can get it by the bucketload, would this be better than Maleic? Malic acid is C4H6O5 - and closer in shape to fumaric than maleic
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Infundibulum
#15 Posted : 11/17/2008 2:52:51 PM

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That's what SWIM's FOAF paid for 45g. It is very pricey, but he does not regret it at all. After all, 45g are enough for salting 140g of spice, and he does not even aspire to smoke as much in his lifetime.

One may even be able to buy cheaper,

http://www.shop-com.co.u...t=4986299&ccsyn=261

As far a malic acid is concerned, it can indeed be found very easily, e.g. in breweries. But I have no clue on how it would perform. If someone is planning to use it he/she should firs establish that

1) malic acid is soluble in acetone

2) dmt malate is totally insoluble in acetone

these are the key virtues upon which the FASA is based

Would be really nice to hear back from success with malic acid.

Need to calculate between salts and freebases? Click here!
Need to calculate freebase or salt percentage at a given pH? Click here!

 
geeg30
#16 Posted : 11/17/2008 3:56:17 PM

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Only 'shop.com' sells fumaric, .co.uk doesn't sell any.

On a lighter note - found out that malic acid IS soluble in Acetone and DMT Malate could be insoluble see Here. Although this is more to do with Cinchonine than DMT, it just might work.
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Jorkest
#17 Posted : 11/17/2008 7:10:31 PM

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could this work with extracting from phalaris grasses? seeing as how you may not have to defat? could you just mix the grass with a base...and then pull with xylene and then add the citric acid acetone solution to have the spice drop out?
it's a sound
 
amor_fati
#18 Posted : 11/17/2008 7:37:10 PM

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Jorkest wrote:
could this work with extracting from phalaris grasses? seeing as how you may not have to defat? could you just mix the grass with a base...and then pull with xylene and then add the citric acid acetone solution to have the spice drop out?


SWIM's dedicated to trying this at the end of next summer. SWIM'll have a wheat grass juicer by then. Phalaris grows in abundance within a bike-ride's distance, SWIM just hopes it's decently potent. Defatting is seemingly what makes phalaris so inefficient to extract from, so SWIM has high hopes.
 
Jorkest
#19 Posted : 11/17/2008 8:05:24 PM

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well SWIM has a few plants of brachystachy that he is going to try this with very soon...
it's a sound
 
geeg30
#20 Posted : 11/19/2008 12:37:41 PM

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Here you!!! Gonnaenodaethat

"Iceberg???? - What Iceberg????"
 
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