For you, in your perspective, does something ontologically need to be extant physically to be said to exist?

I ask because it seems that while we focus a great deal on physical and material reality, we operate a great deal more from conceptual spheres (such as mathematics, which is itself abstract, but with many physical and material applications)that directly impact our realities, in my observation. The way these concepts drive us and move us in our existence substantiates their existence.

Can it still exist, even if it's a byproduct of another process?

Is the mind perhaps on a different tier or level of existence than say the brain? Or even math for that matter?

Would you say math exists?

You may be interested in Descarte, a rationalist skeptic. Through a systematic process of bringing everything around him into question and doubt, he finally arrived solely at his own mind. Paradoxically, through the act of trying to bring into doubt and question the existence of his own mind, he affirmed said existence; it's a thing that has to exist in order to even attempt to deny itself. He was already able to see how "he could be wrong" about everything in his physical reality, so that includes the existence of his own brain. But the faculty that allowed him to have this whole experience is what one calls the mind; the sets of complex internal processes, complete with traits such as self augmentation through self-awareness, complex abstractions, etc. It was just hard to really say where the mind came from is the downside, and there's nothing to be said about the "external reality" through this process either.

This is where solipsism comes from: the one thing that any one individual can be certain of is the existence of their own mind. To be clear, that's not to say that that is the only thing that exists; far from it. It's specifically an epistemological observation about what one undoubtedly knows.

Just sharing ideas

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My ontology considers Extant to mean Existing, yes. Otherwise a thing does not exist as a thing, and existence of a concept is an abstraction and not the same as a thing being real.


No. Numbers are a concept we apply to nature, projecting them. Math is very useful but it has an arbitrary aspect to it. We use it in regard to things that exist. Counting apples for example, apples exist but the apple math does not. In fact we can use different numerical systems (not just a 10 based system) to perform mathematical functions because math is an abstraction and not a thing by itself.

I make use of some of his work actually, mathematical work at that, in the representation of my cosmology.

One of the things about me is that many of my opinions are my own and are not those I have obtained from others and just agreed with, though I do have things I agree with. I've thrown the curve of an 4000 level Phil class or two though and have been invited to attend them by teachers in the past. I am by no means a student of philosophy per say, but I still read Plato and a few others because I enjoy them.

I do not consider myself a skeptic nor a rationalist. I rather dislike skeptics and I have my doubts that any human can be a successful rationalist. Maybe that is just being skeptical and skepticism and being rational about rationalism, but I am not smart enough to know.




It's cool. Not many people I know use the word Ontologically in a sentence and I find it nice that you are well versed in Philosophy and some aspects of Anthropology if I am not mistaken, given the content of some of your posts, though where the line between philosophy and anthropology is... I'll never know.

I really like the word Dialetheia.

I feel like I may have contributed in derailing this post, so this will likely be my last response

But thank you. My degree is in philosophy and it's a continued topic of study with particular focus on the subtopics of epistemology, philosophy of mind, logic/math, and ethics.

I'll leave you with a few bits to mull over.

I suppose now, it's best to ask how do you define real and/or reality? For how can one interact with and apply something that is not real (such as math)? Is a concept not a thing?

And I respect your position and autodidactic style.

Relative to skepticism, I highly recommend you check this thread out that I'm working on.

And thank you again. I'm kind of all over the place

One love

I don't mind if the last few post exchanges between us are extracted and or moved, or continued elsewhere.

If you like you can start a thread for it beginning with the last question(s) you asked me about defining reality and I will answer it there.

Thats the thing though if she wasn't a demon whyd she try attack me & instead of being angry or scared she tried getting me to come back, and still hasn't mentioned anything about it..
Weird though mentally I believe I'm quite grounded in reality (well was atleast) and had never thought or heard of demonic trips or read into it nor been religious it was literally the last thing on my mind. Fyi I don't plan on doing it again, not for a very long time and next time would be alone and an outdoor totally different environment.

Maybe she was scared and/or angry.

Your post mentions that you blocked her.
Did you ever talk to her to hear her side of the story?
If you want to know why she did what she did, shes the only one that can answer that.

Maybe she didn't realy attack you.

Maybe you acted in such a way that she felt threatened. The fact that she locked herself up makes it seem as if maybe she was at least as scared as you was.

In all honesty, locking herself up in the bathroom doesn't realy sound to me like something a demonic creature out to get you, would do.

It's difficult to say what's the right thing to do here.

There are very obviously signs here of a psychotic condition of some sort. Now psychoses come in all sorts, and some are very severe, like in cases of schizophrenia. Others are mild, though a mild psychosis is still a very serious condition that can easily ruin lives.

I have seen quite a few cases here, like these. Every now and then, someone comes along who claims to be jesus, god, abducted by aliens, or haunted by demonic entities.

In almost all of these cases, it is no use talking to these people. The delusion has become an idee fixe. It is persistent.

It's exactly like an obsessive stalker who keeps believing that the object of his obsession loves him, even though she is happily married for years, has filed a restraining order several times and repeatedly stated in very harsh words that she does not want to have anything to do with him, ever again.

There often is no way to get through to these people. And yes, we should always try. But don't expect it to make any difference.

The "I went to the shed to fetch a hammer" is a major red flag, above and beyond calling the police while tripping. I suggest getting actual psychiatric help. This could so easily have gone way further south.

Foster94, you ought to avoid using any further psychedelic substances, probably anything stronger than lemon juice, at all costs. It looks to me as though there are pressing psychosocial issues that you must address, probably at length. Intuition suggests to me that you take a good look at your diet and healthy nutrition - how does that ring with you?

i arrived to the conversation too late to respond to everything i would like to, but i would like to highlight that just because something looks "evil" doesn't mean it is. i think that is particularly important to remember when exploring alien realms because everything looks so.. alien.
if the effects of the trip are causing problems in your day to day life i would definitely have to say quit while you are ahead. the reasons for such experiences are open to debate, but it's safe to say there are other things that need to be worked out before exploring this far.

Sorry if initial reaction was harsh and kinda set the tone for the following replies.

Some trips can be very harrowing and these substances have potential to reprogram the brain. Some reprogrammings can be traumatic and take considerable time to heal.

I am no exclusion to this, so I speak from my own experience. I abstain from psychedelics these days, if you don't count daily cannabis use, for multiple reasons. One of them is that I recognize chance of going bonkers for good and although it's slim, I'd rather not risk anymore, because I've got my answers and my quest.

So I again advise to stay away from mind altering substances for a while. After such trips even weed can be anxiety inducing so chill and try talking it out with yor friend. If you doubt that she is satan, meet her in the church

Trips taking a sinister turn, seeing and feeling startling things, paranoia and the fight or flight response being activated are phenomena with which most of us are familiar. I cut my psychedelic teeth riding out LSD doses in questionable settings, and once was lucky to have a friend whisper "chill man, it's just the acid" when I was startled and jumped out of my chair to flee a class.

People's faces can twist up into grotesque masks while tripping. We even used to call it "Seeing people turn into witches". I'm glad for me it was always a momentary thing, but of course DMT can be orders of magnitude more intense.

But yeah, Foster94 the real red flag is that when your fight or flight response was triggered you did both. Also, since the incident you are still wondering what was and wasn't "real".

Probably shouldn't do any more DMT.

Make that: no psychedelic substances, including cannabis, ever again.

We don't want you to murder someone you think is a demon, and in case that is not convincing for you because you still believe in demons....you don't want to go to prison.

So stay sober. And go see a shrink if you keep experiencing stuff like this.

this feels like the best step 1 to me. i would suggest making extra effort to get in touch with this friend and discuss what happened. hopefully a conversation will help you see that she is the same person she always was and what you saw was a projection (which i believe you misunderstood).

Yeah, it's kind of crazy situation, such that I'm glad nobody died that night. Maybe harsh tone is well deserved, if you assume that receiving party is ready for such criticism.

However, when you think about OP's potential current state of mind, I feel that they are suffering in this situation as well. It's hard to listen to advice in such state, especially if it's given from the perspective of anger and not love.

Would love to hear from OP, how are they and their friend doing.

To play devils advocate a little bit

Personally the general tone that has been giving towards this person sound particularly harsh to me, not to say that they should not be accountable or that they shouldnt reflect and integrate their experience, but I dont see a reason to judge.
They also already stated that the wont touch psychedelics in the near future.

Having the experiece of being attacked by a demon sounds really scary, I wouldnt blame them for letting fear control them, not ideal, but its not really their choice IMO.

We hear someone talk about how they were attacked by negative entities and we validate their experience, and this person has a friend become a demon and we call them psychotic, that confuses me quite a bit.

I agree, being harsh tends to be unproductive.

I could be wrong, but I think some the distinctions others are making are between the entity being disembodied and seemingly "unreal" compared to our pragmatic reality, as well as the scope between harming an entity and harming a real person. Hence the difference of approach.

One love

No one has defended him... but people have certainly cast judgement...



No one has coddled him...

I think you should rethink your stance of us rethinking our stances...

One love

dont you think antipsychotic medication can help these people?
from what i know there are people who get treated using medication.this is why websites like wikipedia show treatment section for these illnesses

Yes, definately.

The problem is that people have to be willing to accept that their minds are playing tricks on them. And usually they simply refuse to do that.

Most sane people in fact, tend to be much more willing to even consider the possibility that everything they believe to be true could be completely inaccurate, than people who're just very delusional.

And then the next problem is, that antipsychotic medication tends to have a lot of very unpleasant side-effects. So very often, people stop taking them at some point, without consulting their doctor or psychiatrist.

You could say that most antipsychotics do in a way, the opposite of what most recreational drugs do. Most recreational drugs give users a litle shot of dopamine, wich is the main reason why people like the effects of these substances.
But many antipsychotics have the opposite effect, because dopamine is thought to play a key role in psychosis. So instead of feeling "high", these drugs tend to make you feel "low".

That is one of the very unfortunate side-effects of most of those drugs.