So the last couple times I've prepared to journey with spice I've had some interesting things occur. I start off in a great mood with my room/bed as setting. Nobody else home to desturb me from my travels. Before I go about vaping my spice I meditate for roughy thirty minutes to an hour or so, when ever it feels like I'm good and ready to to get shot past Pluto.. My gvg is always ready to go at my side for my takeoff. The thing is this ritual usually ends with me going on my journey, and the last two times I have gone from incredibly relaxed and meditating to a full blown breakthrough without even touching the gvg. I wake up usually one to two hours after my meditation and can remember the whole trip from start to finish. My question is this, is it possible to reach that state of consciousness without using spice or am I just having incredible dreams that are indistinguishable from a dmt induced mind state? Has anyone else had this happen? I also lucid dream about three or four times a week so I usually always know when I'm dreaming, even when I'm sleeping. Anyhow I'm going to try tonight with 40mg of spice, but with a pre-dose of 3.5 grams of cubenzies(lemon tek) and a 100 grams or so of 90% cacao dark chocolate slowly over an hour or so before the mushies get eaten. Any input from you wonderful people here at the Nexus would be appreciated very much.
Peace to all!

there is a theory that meditation, along with other things (yoga, starvation, sleep deprivation, etc) can cause the pineal gland to release a burst of endogenous DMT.
there is no way to prove this without someone donating their living brain (specifically their pineal gland).. which not many people want to do for some reason :/
but it certainly would explain buddhism (at least in my opinion; DMT can make reality feel as though an illusion, and cause one to feel enlightened)

Afaik, due to the lack of INMT in the pineal, there's no evidence that the pineal produces DMT. This is discussed in several threads and can be found on the FAQ.

How do you define a “full blown breakthrough”? How similar are your breakthroughs to dreams?

It's not really how similar the breakthroughs are to the dreams for me, but rather how similar the dreams are to my breakthrough... If you can understand what I mean by that.

Basically, I was meditating right on the edge of consciousness and unconsciousness. One second I'm just meditating, the next thing you know I'm flying through the wall behind my bed only to stop in a massive room in hyperspace complete with fractals and patterns colored in intense purple and red with other colors I've never seen before. My ears are ringing and I can hear that carrier wave of vibration and beats. Suddenly I'm face to face with this female geometric blob in the middle of the room and she's comunicating with me. As she is communicating with me she is sending this crazy energy right through my heart, and it's "Love".. That the only word I can use to decribe it, it was like pure clean "Love" was flowing through me. She was incredibly comforting and was telling me I need to look more at the positive things in life I bit more and not always jump to see the negative in things. I need to start seeing how much Love there is in the world everywhere in everything.. Anyhow I'm not going to ramble on anymore since I'm on my phone. I don't know if it was a "full breakthrough" it could have just been a crazy intense dream but to me it deffinetly felt like a breakthrough which I have had quite a few of now so I know a couple things about them. I just asked here because I wanted to see if it was happening to anybody else..

My question would be, did you ever have a breakthrough experience from using DMT and if so, how would you describe this experience?

I've never had this happen awake but I had a dream I hit my GVG and had a full on breakthrough. It was exactly the same as a real DMT breakthrough and still very unique in itself (just like all my breakthroughs).

I'm not sure what this means exactly but it definitely seems like something is going on with endogenous DMT while we're asleep or in deep meditation.

Indeed I have Global, I don't have the time or patience to go into detail here from my phone. Some of my breakthroughs have been incredibly welcoming and some have been extremely uncomfortable and hostile.. More so the first kind than the second however. I think the worst one was when I was confronted by a number of "gods" along the likes of Thoth, Jesus, and sheva with a few more I can't remember now, telling me how I've screwed up so far in life and took me on a journey from present back to my first memory and pointed out all the mistakes I made. I've also had contact with greys a couple times, some good some not. I haven't had a large number of breakthroughs, probably in the area of 15 or 20 of them total with countless sub-breakthrough experiences when I'm trying to figure out dose properly. Also had awesome breakthroughs with spice on a mushroom peak(last night actually) Lots of trial and error..

Fair enough. If you can truly achieve such a state without any DMT then more power to you. I'm curious to know if the DMT was in the room with you during your meditation.

Sure was, it was on my bedside table patiently waiting to be vaped..lol.

"I just asked here because I wanted to see if it was happening to anybody else.."

Sure lots of times at night. Never in the middle of the day though. I cant just meditate into it. It just happens in the middle of the night..I sort of wake up into it happening.

People do have these experiences. I know it, you know it. Noone else needs to believe it unless they have had it themselves..and then they too know it. It is not something we need to convince people of. I wouldnt expect anyone to just believe it. I know the enzymes arent found in the pineal for DMT and seratonin pathways are inhibited durring rem etc..nonetheless it happens to people..

That does not mean it is DMT. It could be other tryptamines and/or tryptolines etc..I am not asleap or in rem when this happens either..but I have usally fallen asleap and then woken back up, usually in the middle of the night. The tryptamine like phase usually comes on first..and then deepends into another level more like realistic OBE's..just another mystery of human consciouness.

Why some experience this while others dont(or do and dont remember) I cant say.

>theory (and you have to admit it is a pretty compelling one.)
>no way to prove


i am aware of this

What do you mean no way to prove?
Either the enzymes are there or they aren't...additionally, afaik, we don't need someone to "donate their brain" (or their pineal) to test this, it can be tested in vivo for living humans, as has been done in numerous studies on endogenous tryptamines and other compounds.

I don't think the theory you present compelling at all...perhaps if you had suggested that the lungs provided a burst of endogenous DMT at certain moments that would be more compelling as the necessary enzymes are there, iirc. But your theory, as applied to the pineal, is certainly not compelling for the aforementioned reason.

in other threads joedirt, who is a scientist has talked about the whole endogenous DMT thing. Apparently it is found at least in the spinal fluid so that would I think support somewhat how it makes it's way into the brain. Spinal fluid to me sounds more plausable than the heart or lungs when it comes to higher levels of DMT in the brain, but I am no scientist so.. He seems to think though that is will be found to be produced in the pineal and that maybe only the enzymes for it are present under certain circumstances...he said he also spoke with the head biologist or something at his work and they agreed..I wish I could remember where that thread is again..I also wish I knew more in general.

I KNOW for a fact that the human body is capable of endogenous experiences that are SIMILAR to DMT..very very similar to oral harmalas with some DMT actaully..more so than smoked DMT. I know that becasue I have experienced it and spoke with others who have as well, prior to any psychedelic use. I cant trigger it at will or just meditate myslef into that state. It is spontanious. I really want to get ahold of some 5meoDMT and pinoline sooner or later so I can experiment with them to compare them to these endogenous experienes I have been having.

I wish this topic would get more attention apart from these arguements over DMT being made in the pineal gland etc..it serves as only a diversion from what alot of people have to say..that these experiences do take place..DMT or some other trypamines/beta carbolines who knows..I wish everyone who had these experiences would talk about it so we could end the taboo.

I've had DMT-esque experiences while not on any psychedelic (maybe some cannabis in one of the cases),but they were no where close to the experience of a full-on breakthrough.

I've had the air turn electric and seen things similar to the effects of the initial vaped come-up in certain high-stress situations, but to my mind, this is a different phenomenon as the initial experience/effects were similar, but the overall experience wasn't even close to the same ballpark.

Having never experienced it, I find myself skeptical that the body does such a thing...but that in no way means it can't. I think the only way I'd end my skepticism would be if I were to experience this phenomenon.

I wake up fairly often with very strong harmala style tracers and buzzing as well, but like you said fractal, more like oral harmalas with DMT. I've never had anything I would compare to a vaporized breakthrough though.

That's what I'm skeptical about, not about spontaneous strong psychedelic effects.

Many mornings after I wake up but before I open my eyes, I’ve noticed lately (the last few months?) that patterns appear in my visual field from the light shining through my eyelids. Depending on the intensity and who knows what else, the patterns are multi-colored, often geometric, and sometimes very complex. I’ve attributed them to DMT, but I’ve been using DMT for over 2.5 years and the patterns started just recently.

Regarding the spontaneous entrance into a deep DMT-like breakthrough state: If that ever happened to me, I’d be very concerned. Spontaneously and unexpectedly having an intense breakthrough experience is not something I’d want to ever experience. It would make me wonder if I had some sort of brain damage from too much DMT.

Like fractal, I've woken up into it. Though afterwards your not quite sure if it was waking or sleeping... it doesn't really matter, it's so dissimilar to both. Maybe being in the habit of a certain type of meditation before DMT shifts the intent into experience. Whenever I hack into it at night, it's as if my mind can fully grasp the fact "Everything I am is filtered, in fact, I myself am a filter" and then it unveils itself...

Thanks for the thought food

To dig up an old thread; I have also slowly come awake one morning and felt one with everything. I felt the grass and the earth under me although i was in my attic in bed.

I have also taken drugs while dreaming and tripped very hard.

okay, here is an example of the intensity I have experienced, so as to compare it to something like vaped DMT. It really is much more like oral harmalas and DMT..or even psilocybin.. This was one of many spontaneous experiences I have had. It happened to me late at night. Instead of falling asleap like normal I just sort of lay there with all these strange things happened to me. It started out with DMT like colored grids and geometry in the dark. I was very tired and inbetween waking and sleep. I was semi aware the entire but very tranced out. Again..it was like ayahuasca more than it was vaped DMT. That went on for probly an hour slowly escalating into an experience that could maybe resemble some stuff I read about 5meoDMT. I entered into the lives of other people in other places/times etc..I would live they're lives sort of in these dream sequences..also similar to harmala dreams..

I remember sort of groing into these grids, like a matrix or archive of all human souls, and I would see one and enter it and actaully be that person for a period of time. While I was those people I had no idea of my life here as me..then I would return back to that sort of DMT like grid pattern in the dark aware of my body laying in bed and slowly the process would repeat and I would have that dream/obe/remote viewing/ of being someone else..

It is just really weird and hard to put into context. It is hard to even find people in the real world to talk to about these expereinces because concidering my history they assume I am having flashbacks, making shit up or that I am delusional.

they dont always go like that either...sometimes it progresses into a complete astral sort of experience where I am 100% lucid and aware of what is going on and I meet with these other beings(they look human) who at times I somehow know have brought me there to show me something. It happened 2 weeks ago and they were the reason I went OBE..it took about 8 tries for me to successfully leave my body and they were there talking to me the whole time trying to get me to do it, and when I finally did they were there astrally with me. I dunno what the hell any of this means or is about, or what it's machanism is..it is just so weird and facinating that it happens.

It is soo so much more than just like vaped DMT in it's expression though...I really think that melatonin, pinoline, maybe 5meoDMT, or even choline levels might play a role.

I should also add that strangely, the first time I ever smoked chaliponga extracted spice(which I had before mimosa) I instantly remembered being in that place before many times as I child at night. It was not like mimosa spice. It was more of a black void like space, and I distincly remember any shred of context dissapearing..like the idea of big or small etc..there was none of that. It really was like this contextless void. I distinctly remember having that experience alot as a child at night while trying to sleep and being very freaked out by it.