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dimethyltryptamine polymorphism? (& colour) (chemistry question) Options
 
nen888
#1 Posted : 6/29/2011 9:08:39 AM
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While Shulgin wrties in Tikhal that there is no evidence of polymorphism in DMT, there are numerous reports of pure crystals with different melting points. Some have suggested the higher melting point products have a different onset (& are the harsh to smoke kind). Has anyone any data/thoughts on this? Could there be left and right-handed forms of this or other tryptamine molecules? And an afterthought: old data says pure DMT crystals (large ones) are pale yellow turning increasingly orange with time. Terrance McKenna always talked about the "orange wax smelling of camphor"...
 

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endlessness
#2 Posted : 6/29/2011 12:06:45 PM

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Large pure DMT crystals can definitely be white/transparent (check this out: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=6683 ). Yellow/orange is impurity and/or oxidation. Maybe whoever gave DMT to mckenna was not yet aware of purification techniques for DMT, or anyways was extracting with some aromatic solvent, thats my guess..
 
nen888
#3 Posted : 6/29/2011 12:30:06 PM
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Great photos, cheers! I assumed the colour was oxidisation too.
 
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#4 Posted : 6/29/2011 12:36:24 PM

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nen888 wrote:
Great photos, cheers! I assumed the colour was oxidisation too.


It is oxidation too. The oxidized DMT is considered an impurity (even though the psychedelic effects can be just as strong if not stronger at times).
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 
nen888
#5 Posted : 6/29/2011 1:33:13 PM
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...interesting, it's usually referred to as inactive or unknown...recent evidence suggests Monomethyl-tryptamine is more active than previously suggested, i'll post a topic on this near future.
 
endlessness
#6 Posted : 6/29/2011 2:00:02 PM

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Interesting nen, I would def be curious about NMT's activity. Shulgin's words on it arent very reassuring, just one person that tried and said had a few seconds experience, but hard to know if it could be placebo or what not. NMT is present in mimosa, so would be interesting to know more about it.

And yeah DMT n-oxide is definitely active Smile
 
nen888
#7 Posted : 6/29/2011 3:28:52 PM
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..pressed for time right now, but a few experiments i "observed" with NMT freebase showed roughly 1/3 potency of DMT with slightly different but noticeable effects which took around 3-5 minutes to appear with a 45-70 minute duration and no negative side effects. In a private conversation with Jonathan Ott several years ago i mentioned this and he confirmed he had several reports of MMT activity (not sure when he'll get round to writing about it, he's very..meticulous..hope he doesn't mind me mentioning this). Simply not enough wide experimentation has been done...
 
nen888
#8 Posted : 6/29/2011 3:43:39 PM
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..oh, & the "peak" would only seem to be 30-45seconds, one similarity to the Tikhal report..bye for now.
 
justine
#9 Posted : 6/29/2011 4:59:56 PM

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nen888 wrote:
..pressed for time right now, but a few experiments i "observed" with NMT freebase showed roughly 1/3 potency of DMT with slightly different but noticeable effects which took around 3-5 minutes to appear with a 45-70 minute duration and no negative side effects. In a private conversation with Jonathan Ott several years ago i mentioned this and he confirmed he had several reports of MMT activity (not sure when he'll get round to writing about it, he's very..meticulous..hope he doesn't mind me mentioning this). Simply not enough wide experimentation has been done...


Very interesting, what was the ROA ? Vaped ?
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Seraph
#10 Posted : 6/29/2011 7:25:33 PM

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If NMT is active then that gives acacia some more worth, do teks designed for mimosa extract the NMT from acacia?
 
nen888
#11 Posted : 6/30/2011 5:57:44 AM
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ROA was vapourization...
 
benzyme
#12 Posted : 7/4/2011 2:26:18 AM

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nen888 wrote:
While Shulgin wrties in Tikhal that there is no evidence of polymorphism in DMT, there are numerous reports of pure crystals with different melting points. Some have suggested the higher melting point products have a different onset (& are the harsh to smoke kind). Has anyone any data/thoughts on this? Could there be left and right-handed forms of this or other tryptamine molecules? And an afterthought: old data says pure DMT crystals (large ones) are pale yellow turning increasingly orange with time. Terrance McKenna always talked about the "orange wax smelling of camphor"...


The camphor scent is characteristic of indole. Dpt and amt smell
similar.

Simple tryptamines have no stereogenic centers, thus no epimers.
People just don't sufficiently purify their product, and even
white freebase crystals turn yellowish-orange with autooxidation,
just like tryptamine.
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nen888
#13 Posted : 7/4/2011 2:46:05 AM
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..thank u benzyme 4 your advanced inputVery happy

many i know associate dimethyltryptamine with a particular smell they can never pin down comparitivly (particularly vapours). i assumed McKenna's 'camphor' was a rough description attempt. our lexicon of olfactory terms is quite limited.

& i imagine even 1-2% impurity (or less) can alter the melting point/taste (depending on what the trace is).

cheers!
 
nen888
#14 Posted : 7/9/2011 8:22:01 AM
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..after reading Acacia confusa extraction thread Acacia Confusa Problems
i am wondering if any of you could characterise the physical form(s)/properties of DMT N-Oxide (or oxide)?
thread assumes yellow oil in A. confusa is Oxide. Is this verified?
in acacia tests NMT (N-Methyltryptamine) was usually seen as a yellow>orange oil. see entheogenic effects of NMT...

might have to start an NMT thread in the Advanced Chem section...
 
cytokinesis420
#15 Posted : 7/12/2011 8:49:22 AM

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nen888 wrote:
..after reading Acacia confusa extraction thread Acacia Confusa Problems
i am wondering if any of you could characterise the physical form(s)/properties of DMT N-Oxide (or oxide)?
thread assumes yellow oil in A. confusa is Oxide. Is this verified?
in acacia tests NMT (N-Methyltryptamine) was usually seen as a yellow>orange oil. see entheogenic effects of NMT...

might have to start an NMT thread in the Advanced Chem section...



This interests me very much as so far ive been assuming the yellow oil in my extractions was just dmt-oxide but after reading more it seems very plausible it could be nmt. When i would take the crystals out of the freezer and scrape them onto a dish, i tilt the dish because some of the crystals would melt and pool into the corner, i thought this was just left over naptha but it shouldnt have been since i had let all of the naptha drain off when the jar was upside down in the freezer. when i did the seperation correctly i had the white crystals that looked like sugar and the yellow oil that pooled in the corner. When i let the yellow oil dry for a couple days it started turning into a amber like substance; when i scraped it up it hardened into dark yellow globs. Perhaps i was able to seperate the two because the nmt has a lower melting temp and drains off first? Does nmt have a lower melting temp than dmt? I need to read more about this...
 
glorf
#16 Posted : 9/11/2011 6:05:47 AM
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nen888 wrote:
While Shulgin wrties in Tikhal that there is no evidence of polymorphism in DMT

he was wrong; the higher and lower melting forms have been shown to have different numbers of molecules per unit cell, which contain molecules with different bonding, which obviously stop being different in solution or vapor.
glorf attached the following image(s):
1.gif (29kb) downloaded 444 time(s).
2.gif (11kb) downloaded 441 time(s).
 
endlessness
#17 Posted : 9/11/2011 11:27:00 AM

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where is that from?
 
glorf
#18 Posted : 9/11/2011 3:38:10 PM
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first page/abstract: http://dx.doi.org/10.1107/S0567740872007435
notice how the author says DMT is hygroscopic, this could well be a mp factor. the figures refer to the higher melting modification in their hands, mp 65.5C. the light yellow HBr salt, mp 114.5C.
it's mostly the raw data and the interpretation of it on the other 8 pages; there was no investigation mentioned beyond this, like the how and why their sample came in different forms. perhaps there was investigation which did not give clear results, but the author is an MD, not a chemist. the earlier article mentioned there: http://dx.doi.org/10.1107/S0567740868003353

it should be interesting (to those making the voodoo magick-ish argument of different melting forms of DMT having different effects) that the molecule is a bit plastic, not exactly the same even within a crystal modification - bonding with neighbors bends bonds. it appears to be a simple case of different arrangements being possible.
 
glorf
#19 Posted : 9/11/2011 4:33:14 PM
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Preliminary X-ray crystallographic study of some psychoactive indole bases.
Acta Cryst. 1968 B24, 882

The Crystal and Molecular Structure of 5-Methoxy-(N,N)-dimethyltryptamine Hydrochloride
Acta Cryst. (1971). B27, 411

The Crystal and Molecular Structure of (N,N)-Dimethyltryptamine
Acta Cryst. (1972). B28, 3075

The Crystal and Molecular Structure of Bufotenine, 5-Hydroxy-(N,N)-dimethyltryptamine
Acta Cryst. (1972). B28, 3219
 
endlessness
#20 Posted : 9/11/2011 6:18:38 PM

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Excellent, thanks for the info Smile

And while you're on it, don't you want to make an introduction essay so we get to know you a bit more? See you around!
 
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