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Successful Conversion of DMT to DMT oxide. Options
 
Mindlusion
#1 Posted : 6/24/2011 10:56:53 PM

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Hello there,

Ive been experimenting a bit, and have successfully converted DMT to DMT oxide,



N,N DMT -> N,N DMT Oxide

100mg of DMT is weighed out and added to a test tube. It is then dissolved in 2ml of 95% ethanol


1ml of 30% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is added dropwise to the solution.

Solution starts to bubble and heat up slightly, it is left to react for 2hrs.





4ml of room temperature naphtha is added to the test tube to remove any unreacted DMT, the contents are mixed and allowed to seperate then removed with a pipette,

2ml of DCM is added to the test tube and is mixed and allowed to seperate. The DCM is then removed and allowed to evaporate.

The product is a clear oil with a very slight yellowish tinge, It smells of tryptamines. It looked a lot like DPT freebase.





I tested this oils solublity in 10ml napatha, (side to side with a small amount of DMT) it wasn't at all soluble, none was easily seen to be dissolved, where the freebase DMT dissolved completely.


I scraped up roughly 100mg of this oil, rubbed it in some blue lotus and smoked it, the effects were slightly visual, and felt very much like DMT, but much less terrifing, no mental effects, very relaxed, a nice "psychedelic stoning".



Im am currently repeating this experiment, and then will be testing the zinc/hcl reduction method with the fairly pure DMT oxide oil, this way we can really see if this zinc/hcl reduction is actually doing anything.




N,N DMT Oxide -> N,N DMT

Zn/Hcl reduction

35% HCL is diluted to roughly 10% and is placed in a beaker containing DMT Oxide. The DMT oxide was very reluctant to dissolve, even in hot 2 pH HCL water, not all of it dissolved.



An excess of zinc metal is added to the solution and allowed to react.



When solution is finished reacting, it is filtered through a coffee filter. And NaOH pellets are added to raise the ph,

Naphtha is added and is mixed with the solution and heated.

The naphtha is allowed to seperate, and the test tube is placed in the freezer for overnight Smile


Results in the morning! (pictures coming)
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Dr_Sister
#2 Posted : 6/24/2011 11:30:03 PM

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A definitive answer on the Zn/HCl route would be fab. Cool
 
SWIMfriend
#3 Posted : 6/25/2011 12:46:02 AM

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So, you can confirm then that 100mg of DMT (I'm assuming freebase) will completely DISSOLVE in 2ml of 95% ethanol?

I initially wouldn't have thought that DMT-freebase would quite that soluble in ethanol.
 
Mindlusion
#4 Posted : 6/25/2011 12:48:18 AM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
So, you can confirm then that 100mg of DMT (I'm assuming freebase) will completely DISSOLVE in 2ml of 95% ethanol?

I initially wouldn't have thought that DMT-freebase would quite that soluble in ethanol.


yes, some heat was applied.
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
SWIMfriend
#5 Posted : 6/25/2011 12:57:15 AM

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Mindlusion wrote:
yes, some heat was applied.


Thanks. That's good to know. I'm always thinking about the issues of nebulizing DMT. This means that a full dose of DMT could dissolve in 1ml of 95% EtOH--and could potentially be inhaled as nebulized vapor of DMT-freebase.

I don't think the effects of 1ml of EtOH are going to be too extreme: there are about 30ml in one fluid ounce (one "shot" ).
 
Mindlusion
#6 Posted : 6/25/2011 12:59:24 AM

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SWIMfriend wrote:
Mindlusion wrote:
yes, some heat was applied.


Thanks. That's good to know. I'm always thinking about the issues of nebulizing DMT. This means that a full dose of DMT could dissolve in 1ml of 95% EtOH--and could potentially be inhaled as nebulized vapor of DMT-freebase.

I don't think the effects of 1ml of EtOH are going to be too extreme: there are about 30ml in one fluid ounce (one "shot" ).


Yes, Definitely, that is a great idea, you'll want to use pretty pure white xtal freebase though, the yellow pigment impurity could be irritant for the lungs.

edit: Keep in mind if you are going to attempt this, that the dose would be much lower, close to 30mg, because you wouldn't lose any during the process of vaporization. With this in mind, you could easily dissolve 30mg in dilute EtOH (30-40%) it would have less effect on the lungs and be less irritant,
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
Mindlusion
#7 Posted : 6/25/2011 1:42:54 AM

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Things aren't looking good for the Zn/HCL reduction.

DMT oxide is VERY insoluble in acidic water,

It IS however, more soluble in basic water..

so when I have the chance, my new plan is to dissolve DMT oxide in basic water, made basic with NaOH, and then add lithium metal as a reducing agent.

This reduction method seems more viable.

Any thoughts?
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
SWIMfriend
#8 Posted : 6/25/2011 2:37:52 AM

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Isn't the original "recipe" for oxide reduction to add zinc metal to the acidic water part of an A/B extraction? Apparently there, the oxide is dissolved in the acidic water, right?

Do you think the DMT in bark is getting oxidized sometime AFTER the acidic step? If not, then whatever oxide is there is already coming through the acid solution.
 
benzyme
#9 Posted : 6/25/2011 4:33:11 AM

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DMT base extractions inevitably create N-Oxide, due to the high concentrations of hydroxide ions in solution. if you leave it in basic solution long enough, the product will gain an oxide ion.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
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SWIMfriend
#10 Posted : 6/25/2011 5:13:16 AM

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^Ah! Good info.

I believe it was 69Ron's idea that "old" MHRB might produce less DMT because lots of it was oxidized--and you thus got more "yellow oil" from those extractions because of it.

So then, it's fair to assume that people who are getting lots of yellow oil are in fact getting it because their extraction is spending too much time in the base phase?
 
benzyme
#11 Posted : 6/25/2011 5:17:19 AM

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probably

this also occurs with tryptamine base as it undergoes autooxidation in air; it turns from
white to yellow-ochre.
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SWIMfriend
#12 Posted : 6/25/2011 5:28:52 AM

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benzyme wrote:
probably

this also occurs with tryptamine base as it undergoes autooxidation in air; it turns from
white to yellow-ochre.


But storing DMT-freebase with zinc powder (in a closed container) should in fact help to prevent it from oxidation, correct?
 
benzyme
#13 Posted : 6/25/2011 6:18:36 AM

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yea (but you wouldn't want to have zinc powder in your vaping stash)
or convert it to fumarate/tartrate/ascorbate salt.

but zinc as a reducing agent isn't very effective, it has a low reduction potential.
aluminum is somewhat better. of course, the more effective ones are moisture-sensitive
and will spontaneously ignite with water.
"Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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SWIMfriend
#14 Posted : 6/25/2011 6:46:12 AM

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food quality antioxidant sachets are often made of iron powder, I believe. Iron is chosen over zinc (probably because it's potentially less toxic).

I've been trying to see what's involved in making (or buying a mini) N2 generator/filter. The coolest thing is to store valuable products that can be oxidized in an N2 atmosphere.

EDIT: I think one can also buy bottled nitrogen quite cheaply.

AH! Here's a nice, simple way to help store something valuable free from oxidation. Ten bucks, and "120 uses per can."

And ya gotta have cute blue bottles, too.
 
benzyme
#15 Posted : 6/25/2011 1:47:21 PM

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nitrogen is definitely a good option.
SWIB uses a dense blanket of argon on any product.
(nitrogen is cheaper)
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cker
#16 Posted : 7/3/2011 4:45:45 PM

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Mindillusion wrote: "so when I have the chance, my new plan is to dissolve DMT oxide in basic water, made basic with NaOH, and then add lithium metal as a reducing agent."

If this is done in the presence of water the Li metal will violently react with the water to make LiOH. I think you'll need to do this without any water present or else you'll have a mess on your hands.

Also, if the reaction environment is basic there will be fewer Hydrogen species in solution which will lower the reduction capability (do I have this right?)

Perhaps it's too early to give up on Zinc? Can anyone think of a solvent that would dissolve DMT oxide and aqueous HCl? How about a reaction in Xylene of maybe even EtOH?
 
Mindlusion
#17 Posted : 12/2/2011 2:38:07 AM

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I have pretty much given up on zinc, the rxn was left for 2 weeks, adding fresh reactants and agitating the mixture. Looked as if no DMT-Oxide had dissolved.

I had decided to test if had DMT had been converted and was in the solution as DMT HCl, so I filtered and decanted the mixture, basified and extracted.

The resulting extract was evaporated and I was left with a thin film, this was burn tested and no familiar tryptamine smell was noticed.

Mad


also above ^ Lithium reductions done in a controlled manner will not burst into flame, also they can be done in a nonflammable solvent with water being added dropwise
Expect nothing, Receive everything.
"Experiment and extrapolation is the only means the organic chemists (humans) currrently have - in contrast to "God" (and possibly R. B. Woodward). "
He alone sees truly who sees the Absolute the same in every creature...seeing the same Absolute everywhere, he does not harm himself or others. - The Bhagavad Gita
"The most beautiful thing we can experience, is the mysterious. The source of all true art and science."
 
nen888
#18 Posted : 12/2/2011 2:59:52 AM
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..thanks very much for your work Mindlusion, i'm wondering what happens if one tries to re-crystalize the previously obtained 'oil', after washing solvent with salty NaOH + water..?
 
q21q21
#19 Posted : 12/2/2011 7:17:36 AM

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Really great post, very interesting stuff.
Too bad the DMT oxide didn't go smoothly
One things I want to mention

Mindlusion wrote:

I scraped up roughly 100mg of this oil, rubbed it in some blue lotus and smoked it, the effects were slightly visual, and felt very much like DMT, but much less terrifing, no mental effects, very relaxed, a nice "psychedelic stoning".


Those are EXACTLY the effects that I got from smoking DMT oxide made with peroxide too!
Just a psychedelic buzz but it just kinda stayed there like it was only a small half-toke of N-N-DMT even after 3 decent size tokes.


Q21Q21's Tek: A comprehensive guide to extracting DMT
The 2 teks use non-toxic lime and vinegar and Tek 1: d-Limonene or Xylene or Tek 2: Naptha to produce very quick high yields with the greatest of ease.

I am almost never on this site anymore so I will likely not answer PMs

 
endlessness
#20 Posted : 12/2/2011 1:17:19 PM

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Very interesting, thanks for trying out! I found it very strange, though, that the n-oxide wasnt soluble in dilute acetic acid solution? According to literature, it definitely should!

Also in literature, usually its acetic acid that is used, not HCl, for the conversion. And base added is ammonia, but I dont know if another base would be an issue. Here's two relevant papers:

Fish et al 1955
Fish et al 1956

Did you get to check this n-oxide in TLC ?


And benz, if you still read this thread: do you have any evidence for n-oxide forming in extractions or is this a supposition based on chemical reasoning? Did you ever find n-oxide by TLC or LC-MS in an extraction ?
 
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