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Smoking Efficiency and Dose Size Options
 
gibran2
#1 Posted : 4/25/2011 3:17:17 PM

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After reading too many posts about people who describe smoking 50mg and larger doses, yet report only average/typical effects, I thought about the obvious – it’s obvious that in many cases the amount of DMT that gets into one’s blood stream is much smaller than the amount loaded into one’s smoking device.

So where does it all go? I’ve come up with six factors/sources that effectively reduce the amount of a dose:

1. Purity
The first obvious source of loss is lack of purity. Although many people sing the praises of yellow/orange spice, it’s not clear exactly what all of the impurities might be. Some impurities may be active, some may enhance activity, but others may just produce lots of noxious inactive smoke.

So, for example, if someone measures a dose of 50mg of DMT containing 10% inactive impurities, then 5mg of active dose has already been lost.

2. Pyrolysis
Thermally decomposed DMT is no longer DMT. At its most extreme, it’s mainly carbon, some simple carbon compounds, maybe a few simple nitrogen compounds, and who knows what else. These compounds are not psychoactive. Depending on technique and device used, a large portion of a dose can be lost due to pyrolysis.

Any device that slowly “cooks” DMT, such as a light bulb vaporizer, or any device that subjects DMT to direct flame or extremely high heat will tend to destroy much of a dose before it’s inhaled, producing noxious non-psychoactive byproducts in the process.

3. Condensation
DMT vapor condenses very quickly, especially on cold surfaces. It also seems that DMT condenses much more readily on a surface that is already coated with a film of previously condensed DMT.

Any device which has a long circuitous route from bowl to mouth or holds the vapor for a prolonged time will lead to more condensation than a device with a very short route (a fancy bong with all kinds of cooling attachments added vs. a short straight glass pipe).

A device with lots of old DMT condensation built up will also tend to increase the amount of condensation, so it’s important to keep things clean.

4. Flow
When DMT liquefies, it becomes very fluid and dynamic. It will move along temperature gradients from hotter areas to cooler areas. For example, if DMT is piled on several screens in a glass pipe, most of it will flow toward the glass surfaces and down the pipe stem, moving out of range of the heat source. And generally, the larger the dose, the more likely this will happen.

5. Exhalation
DMT takes a certain amount of time to move from air in the lungs to the blood stream. Very little of a dose that is quickly and shallowly inhaled then rapidly exhaled will get absorbed.

6. Rate of Consumption
Without an MAOI, DMT is quickly metabolized. A small dose of a few milligrams may be largely metabolized in 30 seconds or less. This would suggest that fewer and larger inhalations will lead to a higher peak concentration of DMT than will more numerous smaller inhalations.


If you consider that a few milligrams are lost to impurities, several more milligrams lost to pyrolysis, a couple milligrams lost to condensation, a good amount lost to flow, and more are lost to quick exhalation and small hits, then it’s easily conceivable that only a peak 20mg or so of a 50mg dose is making its way to the blood stream.
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corpus callosum
#2 Posted : 4/25/2011 7:19:24 PM

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Astute observations Gibran2.

I think its important to put some time/effort into getting a product which is of high purity but probably more important still is to get your technique of vaporisation optimised.

However, I cannot discount some variabilty in effects achieved between individuals even when utilising the same dose/technique.I do feel that the biggest factor in getting less then mind-blowing effects with say 50mg would be due to poor vaporisation, and I think this accounts for the 'hit and miss' experiences we read about quite often here at the Nexus.

And I fully agree that keeping your tool of choice clean certainly aids a more consistent result.
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gibran2
#3 Posted : 4/25/2011 7:55:43 PM

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corpus callosum wrote:
...However, I cannot discount some variabilty in effects achieved between individuals even when utilising the same dose/technique.I do feel that the biggest factor in getting less then mind-blowing effects with say 50mg would be due to poor vaporisation, and I think this accounts for the 'hit and miss' experiences we read about quite often here at the Nexus.

And I fully agree that keeping your tool of choice clean certainly aids a more consistent result.

With this post I was only considering the relationship between dose loaded into smoking device vs. amount of DMT entering blood stream. There are, as you noted, many other variables that contribute to particular subjective effects, foremost of which is set and setting.

Even an adequate, sufficiently large dose efficiently consumed will not necessarily produce satisfactory results if details of set and setting are not attended to.
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Metanoia
#4 Posted : 4/25/2011 8:06:39 PM

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This is why I decided to just make some changa and avoid the whole vaporization route. I've had some decent success with my changa in fairly small doses, so I'm happy. Perhaps after I've had more experience (and enough spice stockpiled to last forever) I'll go through the learning process of vaporizing freebase spice on it's own.
 
ewok
#5 Posted : 4/25/2011 10:18:20 PM

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I'm always blown away by the reports of 50mg+ doses and wonder how much is exaggeration as even with bad technique you will get a good hit from 75mg(a recent report I read claimed this amount for non-breakthrough). I only need 25mg getting 30mg is a heavy experience for me.
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gibran2
#6 Posted : 4/25/2011 10:48:57 PM

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ewok wrote:
I'm always blown away by the reports of 50mg+ doses and wonder how much is exaggeration as even with bad technique you will get a good hit from 75mg(a recent report I read claimed this amount for non-breakthrough). I only need 25mg getting 30mg is a heavy experience for me.

Agreed. Read this post.
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Ice House
#7 Posted : 4/26/2011 12:02:54 AM

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ewok wrote:
I'm always blown away by the reports of 50mg+ doses and wonder how much is exaggeration as even with bad technique you will get a good hit from 75mg(a recent report I read claimed this amount for non-breakthrough). I only need 25mg getting 30mg is a heavy experience for me.


The same for me also. 25mg vaped properly and I am GONE! 25mg of a bright yellow crystally spice knocks me into another universe evry single time.

@gibran2- very nice post. I think you are spot on with this.

I must say however that IMO purity is probably not the most important factor as it pertains to most on the Nexus. My line of thinking is that, even if the yellow-orange spice is lower in purity and lets just make up some numbers say that on the low end of purity its only 50% pure. If a person properly vapes 50mg of 50% pure spice that person is still in for one hell of a monster break through.

I dont know what the average purity range is for the average extraction, but my guess is that it is well over 75% if not closer to 90%. I have never tested this, this is just my opinion.

IMO, your point 2-5 on proper dosing is most likely the #1 contributing factor to how well a person launches on spice and not purity.

IMO you can be an absolute retard and still extract spice in the 80%+ range if not higher. If you can read the tek and assemble the ingredients and follow basic steps your going to get in the purity ranges that are needed to have a break through dose.

Now ..... can you vape it properly? Thats the tough part.


Just my 2 cents.

Good post gibran2


thanks,

ih
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gibran2
#8 Posted : 4/26/2011 12:13:08 AM

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@ Ice House - Thanks for your comments. I agree that purity probably isn’t a big factor, but I included it for completeness. And even 95% pure spice will contain 2.5mg impurities in a 50mg dose. (I didn’t list the six factors in any particular order.)

One of my points was that the losses add up – a few milligrams subtracted due to lack of purity, a few more lost to condensation, quite a few lost to “flow”, etc. can add up to a substantial loss even if each individual deficit isn’t that big.
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ewok
#9 Posted : 4/26/2011 12:30:14 AM

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gibran2 wrote:
ewok wrote:
I'm always blown away by the reports of 50mg+ doses and wonder how much is exaggeration as even with bad technique you will get a good hit from 75mg(a recent report I read claimed this amount for non-breakthrough). I only need 25mg getting 30mg is a heavy experience for me.

Agreed. Read this post.


WOW I can't begin to comprehend what 100mg would be like. Sounds like someone has a case of cool kid syndrome, thinking more=better.
Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
Red and yellow then came to be,
reaching out to me, lets me see.
There is so much more and it beckons me to look though to these,
infinite possibilities.
As below so above and beyond I imagine,
drawn outside the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
 
amor_fati
#10 Posted : 4/26/2011 1:24:30 AM

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Since SWIM switched from a multiple hit technique to a single hit technique, he's definitely noticed a boost in potency. Typically 30-40mg puts him well within where he wants to be, 40-50mg are fairly heroic doses, 50+mg gets into blackout territory if he manages his technique well enough to get a full dose. SWIM wouldn't likely notice much of a difference between a 60+mg and 100mg, as he doubts he would be able to avoid runoff or some other mechanical effect that would deter from a full-dose, not to mention sheer lung capacity, assuming one could even remember the experience.

He believes that even when he was doing multiple hits, he would occasionally get a fairly hefty dose with the first or second hit, possibly due in part to his former habit of accumulating leftovers in his piece. Anyway, it seems he can achieve those experiences more consistently and less haphazardly, now.
 
ewok
#11 Posted : 4/26/2011 1:57:36 AM

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I think its more the posts of 50mg+ where they say it has little effects, I believe it can be done but you will have some major experience if haven't blacked out from it. I read a post saying he smoked 2g's dmt in one night. Even at 50mg each dose that's 40 hits of 50mg in one night. Over 12 hours its 50mg every 18 minutes if that's real I take my hat of to him. But I just can't see it. That's why I think there are some who think its cool to over state what they are taking. I think of it as the cool kid syndrome.
Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
Red and yellow then came to be,
reaching out to me, lets me see.
There is so much more and it beckons me to look though to these,
infinite possibilities.
As below so above and beyond I imagine,
drawn outside the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
 
smokerx
#12 Posted : 4/26/2011 7:50:35 PM

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very nice post thank you for that.

im still working on my dose and smoking technique

my new post here
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Mindlusion
#13 Posted : 5/14/2011 4:55:22 PM

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I have recently discovered anything over 50mg with changa/freebase bong sandwich method smoked in one hit is WAY too much.

This is a good thread though, its nice to have all that outlined, I think lots of people will greatly enhance their method with this.
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DMTripper
#14 Posted : 5/15/2011 12:48:54 PM

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Smoking technique is crucial but not the only factor. Sometimes I need a lot more spice. My condition plays a big role.
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zubidlo
#15 Posted : 5/15/2011 2:37:42 PM

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Hi,

Yesterday night I had the changa session with my friend (newbie). I infused 300mg of spice onto caapi leaves. Gave us I think 5 trips each. Soon we realized that my friend needs bigger dose than me. But not because of the tolerance rather a lack of will to dive into changa trance. I observed him in his trance and he was fighting against it. His eyes shut tight, heavily breathing time to time, nervous laughs, one of his legs shaking. Then after he watched me, he said he wants more of medicine next time to go that deep. We came to understanding soon and he made it at third launchVery happy

Anyway for me the dose is around 20mg of spice vaped + 5-10g caapi tea drunk these days for travels out of this reality. I've had experiences with doses above 50mg straight spice, but it seems to me like a waste with caapi.


Regards.
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gibran2
#16 Posted : 5/15/2011 3:38:41 PM

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It seems that some are missing the point of this thread, which is actually quite simple:


The peak amount of DMT that enters one’s blood stream via smoking/vaporizing is always going to be less, sometimes substantially less, than the amount loaded into a smoking device.


There are many other factors that contribute to a DMT experience, but I was more interested in commenting on the claims that some people make about loading huge amounts of DMT into a smoking device. It seems these people assume that they are actually consuming huge amounts of DMT. This is almost certainly not the case.

It just seems really wasteful to me. If you take the time and effort to make DMT, why not put at least as much attention into developing good smoking technique? My guess is that if everyone had an efficient smoking device, good technique and reasonably pure spice, the typical dose would be in the 20-40mg range. I bet it would be very rare to hear anyone talk about smoking 50-75mg and getting only moderate results.
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monty p
#17 Posted : 5/18/2011 5:48:54 PM

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This is a great thread Gibran. I am still relatively new to DMT and am still haven't gotten to grips with the dose consumed vs the effects produced.
I use a GVG and arc lighter, follow a smoking tech that i think Gibran posted in another thread i feel i am getting the majority of the spice successfully into my system.
After reading peoples opinions on GVG doses for months i was very cautious dosing more than 30mg. I never experienced a breakthrough at these doses. The GVG is always clean, i hold the vapour in for as long as i can and if i try to have another hit without loading the pipe again there is basically no vapour. I really dont think i could do much better, i get STRONG visuals but no breakthrough.
In the past few weeks i have gotten more comfortable with the spice and i stepped my dose up gradually to 35, 40, 45, then 50.
50mg did the job, wow, now i know what a breakthrough is!
Is it possible that i just have a natural high tolerance? or must i be doing something wrong still? I dont use any other substances regularly.

Any advice/thoughts are much appreciated Smile
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gibran2
#18 Posted : 5/18/2011 6:29:53 PM

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monty p:

In the Strassman study, I think it was about 3-5% of people who were totally immune to the effects of DMT. So it’s quite possible that certain people are more sensitive than others. You might just be a bit less sensitive than some others. Also, the effectiveness of a dose (and this is true for most substances) is related to body weight. Again, the Strassman study administered 0.4mg/kg DMT-fumarate IV.

For someone who weighs 150 pounds (68.2kg), that translates to a dose of 27.3mg of fumarate, which is equivalent to about 21mg freebase.

For someone who weighs 250 pounds, the equivalent freebase dose would be about 35mg.

A dose of 50mg, especially with the GVG and good technique, sounds fairly high, but as I stated earlier, you might just be less sensitive to the effects. If you’re doing everything you reasonably can to maximize your efficiency, then I wouldn’t worry about it too much.


(Are you sure no DMT is dripping/flowing down the sides of the glass? It doesn’t take much to really lower your dose – a good-sized drop of liquid DMT could be 20mg or more.)
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monty p
#19 Posted : 5/18/2011 7:21:15 PM

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Thanks for that info. I weigh just about 68kg so all being equal i shouldn't need 50mg unless i do have a natural high tolerance.
I use 1 pipe screen and a very thin piece of volcano liquid pad i have chopped up and shaped, i found the full thickness of the liquid pad too restrictive when inhaling. I was getting very slight leakage with this set up so i quickly started using a tiny, tiny sprinkling of mint to prevent it. Guess im just unlucky on the tolerance side of things, don't like the idea that i could be wasting any of my precious spice!
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