I've been enlightened to the fact that i am not enlightened, and know nothing....



Much Love & Sincerity,

Perceptual Reality

I think you're not right that the forum's aggregate I.Q. would nessecarily drop. It would only make it look that way.

Yorby you really stirred the pot with this post! lol.

BTW I've had a few experiences very similar to yours. Don't sweat it. As long as you are back and say you are feeling good I'll take you at face value. Also I didn't find your post that uncomprehendable.

Cheers

Part of me finds this all very depressing. Almost like a tiny little reflection of the pettiness and lack of forward progress seen on the world political scene. Whatever. Seriously, haven't any of us learned yet? Reality, enlightenment and insight are all terribly over-rated. As are hierarchies, perceptions and, frankly, DMT (as well as the perceptions and emotions it ignites within us). Speaking for myself, I seem to be really stuck moving from what I was to what I am becoming. All there is is now. I wish we could all treat each other a little better and try to promote more peace & love.

But, I reiterate, nothing but now and . . . . whatever.

Ah, I have grown to hold this interpretation of enlightenment to be of utmost accuracy! If there is any alleged enlightenment, it is in the path of struggle towards this concept, nowhere else.



A nihilistic view does not always have to be pessimistic, friend. For certain, it should be avoided at all costs if possible, but one could truly use this view to one's advantage.

Yes, it's exactly like that. A microcosm of the world political scene.

Or not at all. Not sure which.

Either way, Pandora, you need to get out of the house more.

You shouldn't make it seem worse than it is.
Some people had trouble interpreting eachothers words or intentions correctly and made a big fuzz about it.
I don't think anybody meant any harm to yorby.

I know there is some 'special chemistry' going on between you and art but in this case the major derailment sprung from doc savants interpretation of arts words, rather than from art himself.
I'm sorry if we seem to be arrogant or dismissive to some people.

I disagree with your statements about reality and enlightenment. They're rather underrated than overrated. Enlightenment is worth striving for. Especially in those cases where you feel you have to make big sacrifices to reach enlightenment, for instance when it would require someone to stop using the services provided by sex-slaves and such, it often is very much worth considering to actually make this sacrifice even if that would mean having to delay your pleasure.

Wow. Okay, I'll go into MUCH more excruciating detail. My intention was not to make it worse than it is. Folks on the political stage love to talk about things that ignite passions and have little to do with original (regardless of importance) issues. I felt that analogy was valid. And just like the political stage, even though I am a player here, the whole thing does get a bit tiresome and depressing over time. Just my opinion/observation. It was a minor issue that got blown into something major and that apparently lost us another member. Oh well.

First and foremost - I was in error in not carefully wording my reply to indicate it is all just personal opinion. Inappropriate and bad attitude to make such sweeping statements. So, here we go:

Original poster went a bit against established Nexus etiquette and culture and exhibited an interesting attitude. Probably should have been ignored to have fun with his stream of consciousness while folks replied to well thought-out posts. But that did not happen and hindsight is frequently 20-20.

Uncle Knucles's reply, while appropriate in content in my opinion, was worded with extreme hostility. What we used to in the 1980's call, "fighting words." I have no other feelings about Art's reply than that. Whatever is between Uncle Knucles and myself is basically a conflict of personal styles. Without knowing a thing, I deeply suspect he and I have had some similar life experiences. Also, without knowing a thing, I suspect that he and I, if we spent an afternoon together outside of the Nexus context would laugh so hard together that a hospital visit might possibly be necessary. I suspect many things. It is irrelevant. Our interactions will only be here on Nexus. My reply was not aimed specifically at Uncle Knucles. But, please, feel free to believe whatever you want.

From my perspective, Doc Savant's reply was a combination of "Doc Savant meet Uncle Knucles . . . " and . . . .? The ? because he mentions endlessness and does not back anything up with a quote. Also, there is a lot of anger and general apparent (again, my perspective) hostility towards perceived Nexus hierarchy. Also, more than a little ignorance (e.g. thinking that the titles like "Voyager" had to do with hierarchy rather than post numbers).

For anyone who thinks endlessness is arrogant, I would like to say that my perspective is this: You may be possibly mistaking arrogance for real experience and caring. He has been here a long time, has seen a lot; he is very savvy and experienced, within the educational, psychedelic and real life realms. He knows and loves DMT Nexus. His responses tend to be very patient and try to help. BUT, his responses are sometimes like the responses of a psychotherapist who probes deeply with a client - they can elicit what in myself I can only describe as projections and transference responses.

Doc Savant, I do realize there has been some negativity recently. I also realize that things go on at Nexus that are tweaky and funky. Hey, it's all good. It's not our website. Sometimes breaks can be good to give a more appropriate perspective on things. I mean, really, sorry if I set off a flurry of responses, but seriously overrated. We are talking about a molecule. We are talking about a website. Right? People will do what they want. You can stay or you can go. If you go I will miss you. If you stay, I hope that you will come to see over time that there are larger patterns at play here than seem to be immediately apparent.

By showing me how easy it is within a minute or so to completely and utterly destroy all of my perceptual modalities relative to the consensual reality tunnel, speaking personally, I have found reality to be overrated.

I have also come to recently realize that for me personally DMT is a very powerful medicine that can bring to the fore material and emotions (insight) from various levels of my consciousness. This material can be personally positive/beneficial or negative/hurtful. I am coming to believe, speaking personally, that unless there is a very active personal crisis reason to DIG for this material, that this type of insight is in fact OVERRATED. There is a reason my consciousness has ordered this material into the various levels that help to make up my (dys)functional whole.

And now onto enlightenment. You better believe I think it is overrated! Nihilistic. Whatever - you will believe what you want, I know that. Anyone who claims to be enlightened or understand true enlightenment is a charlatan in my book, a scammer or just plain deluded. People are people. We repeat the same mistakes down through the millenia. Just look at history across cultures. We will say what we must and do what we want. In my opinion, enlightenment will always be an overrated and/or scam and/or delusional concept until (if ever) we somehow transcend (engineer ourselves out of) the human body.


And finally, Uncle Knucles - regarding the advice to get out (of the one bedroom ghetto apartment) more. Gee, thank you very much. I will definately take that under advisement now that the weather has improved. Clearly factors like arthritis, violent crime and lack of income over about $20K per year (takes money to travel away from the ghetto) play no part in this at all. I take a daily walk. Sometimes it is nerve-wracking because of the folks I encounter on the street, but it's good to see the sun. Frankly, I cannot afford to do much more.


I sincerely do hope I have made myself clear.

These are just one woman's personal opinions. I appreciate having a forum on which to express them.

I'm on Art's side here. Personally I don't like posts written by people while tripping. They usually don't make any sense and in worst cases make you dizzy with bullshit.
I often open up such threads only to read a little until I close it. The thread might have an interesting title but I forget and open it up again the next day. It can get a bit frustrating. But of course some have great insights and are well written. But that's rare.
I think it's a good idea to write such posts in a word doc. like Art suggested and post later.

Pandorra, i see you define enlightenment and reality differently than i do. i'm the first one to agree with you that consensus reality is overrated and that enlightenment is a problematic concept. I don't believe there can be a permanent state of enlightenment.

Yet, trying to do what's right even if that requires great personal sacrifices, not for the sake of heroïsm, martyrdom or enlightenment itself, but out of genuine care is something most humans (at least 60% of them is my estimation) are capable of and wich i would consider an example of genuine enlightenment. That would have nothing to do with charlatanism, because this is something within reach of most people, contrary to the ability to walk on water for instance.

Reality is another concept that's problematic, but when you consider relativity to be merely a term that defines the scope of absolutism, you'll see that some flexibility can be allowed for when defining reality.

I always greatly enjoy the energy that exists between you and art. It's a bit 'mother theresa meets oscar wilde' wich is good for quite a bit of laughter, drama and livelyhood on this site.

Im just suprised he was able to write during, im so consumed in thought that ammendments to my writing is the only TO know if i make sense. But as far as i could tell its a solid suggestion, even if its entertaining to read. I felt that i was enlightened and it went away again, but reaching that enlightenment is what the journey is about...i think

I agree. I think we tend to speak of two different things when we talk of enlightenment. There is what I call a false enlightenment that everyone tries to claim they have. Then there is an enlightenment that comes from a genuine modest sincerity which is unknown to the person who has it though others can see it shine through them.

If you search for enlightenment you'll never find it and if you claim it you've already lost it!

Dont stress, Mom. Its all good. My misperception of this website has been corrected. I came from an abusive background, so I am highly attuned to nuances when it comes to abusive, mean spirited people. Where as a child, I could only suffer, as a very accomplished adult i have long actively defended folks from abusive and hypocritical people. My stepping forward to do so here made me a target, so let them chew on me, who can take it. I am not so thin skinned as to allow the pitchfork and torch toting masses to scare me off; they desperately need this kind of validation to assuage their own pain; if they can put others down, it gives them a sense of power. I detest the rank fraud and hypocrisy of those in power. But, since everyone is a mix of good and bad, all are susceptible to repeatedly trespassing in the pizza of life from the pepperoni to the cheese, and I am no different. Hopefully, if these folks are on a journey, like myself, of self improvement, then one day they may see what there is to see, know what needs to be known. Everyone has the right to change...

I have long been of the belief that if one wishes to know what is in a box, one should shake the box, after doing so you will find yourself always better informed than before about the contents. I apparently shook the box, and have learned much. Few here have even understood my point, but in light of more information, my point is a moot one. A corrupt city hall is a corrupt city hall. Mean spirited people are mean spirited people. Dont stress, Mom. Come to Ayahuasca.com; I promise you the kind of environment youve been searching for...

Love you, mom No worries...

ps. april 19 in templesf in SF; alex gray, rick strassman, etc. Ya comin' ?

Oh Doc....at least we have you here to cry corruption on an internet form and stand up for "the little guy" because no one can take care of themselves.

I like aya forums too,but they don't put up with bs either. Start breaking one of their rules, like talking about extractions or fb dmt...and do it over and over and see if there are not consequences and some backlash. I have seen it.

Online forums for god sake. I don't believe either forum needs or wants a self righteous passive aggressive martyr but that's just this one guy's opinion.

I wonder how much light you will shine when you read this.

Strange, I find myself completely baffled at Doc's perception of this forum. Perhaps it is my own fallacy of projecting my intentions when I post on here to the other members, but I was under the impression that we actually DO have a great attitude going on here and DO treat each other with much respect, love, compassion, etc., and that we are in a continuous reciprocal process of helping each other to progress.

I never felt that *higher* members were belittling the *lower* ones. I did feel intimidated when I first came here, by say the mods or people with high post counts, but that was MY impression, not how it really was. New members that display coherence and post interesting thoughts, that show that they want to engange in what I described above are IMO never really seen as *lower* members. Once I got over the feeling of intimidation and opened up to the community, I felt there was no hidden hierarchy of respect. This may be hard to believe for someone who is still in the nursery...

Moving on to my favorite topic (note sarcasm): enlightenment. What is it? Firstly I am highly suspicious of anyone who claims they are enlightened. It seems to me that the nature of (human) existence is part a mystery. There are always things we cannot explain, things that are somehow hidden in darkness. And this is the interesting part. Our spiritual path is never at an end, there is always more to uncover and illuminate.

CG Jung wrote: "One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." ("The Philosophical Tree" (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335) I find this quote to be very accurate. But like with the universe, the darkness is vast and possibly infinite, and so one is never fully enlightened, no?

At the same time if one extrapolates from this quote to the attitude, enlightenment is not something grand. It is something deep and introspective. Any claims to enlightenment feel to me as though the person claiming them is blinded by a small area of light and fails to see the vast darkness around this island of elucidated self. I think for spiritual development it is at some point essential to acknowledge that these processes are never finished, and full illumination is not possible. Personally I find this comforting. It means I will never come to an end of my quest. And certainly this should make anyone humble - the more conscious one gets the more one can sense the immensity of the unconscious out there.

But more to the point this place here is not about people claiming to have reached stages x or y and thus can look down on others. I've always felt that an enormous amount of openness was present here, concerning science, pseudo science, metaphysics, spirituality, philosophy and general ideas. When worded properly any of these can yield wonderful discussions, but it is important to highlight how essential using the language properly is. Given that language is the ONLY way we can communicate over the internet, we must use it to our advantage in order to create robust transmissions of information from one living node of consciousness to the other. The more incoherent, i.e. the less semantic rules etc used, the less robust the transmission and thus the more likely the message will become meaningless.

this is sad for the poster and can be annoying for those that try to make sense out of it or are just cluttered with useless bits and bytes. This is one reason I think the nursery is so important. So that we can develop the technology in each of our members to communicate properly and thus engage in meaningful exchanges. It is not that we look down upon anyone. Anyone has the ability to communicate, and I would assume anyone who is interested in meaningful exchanges would also agree to our attitude page, so it's just a matter of getting accustomed to this practice or demonstrating that it is already in use.

No one wants to bully anyone here.
We're just trying to help and progress on all fronts - at least that's how I view it.

cheers & love
Enoon

How much light does van d'lay shine on others when he posts? An infinite amount? I'll need to learn from his conduct in order reach the level of maturity and acceptable attitude required for membership? Infinitely noted.

And Ayahuasca.com is a better place than your opinion of it. But if I ever post about extractions or fb dmt on either site I will bear your advice in mind.

Aya.com is a devoted website and a consistent one; I have never found them to be hypocritical, or anything other than loving and helpful. Even to passive aggressive martyrs...

Wow..I really guess we need a new thread for all this mudslinging (guess I'm guilty) as this one has derailed so far from the OP comments, which in fact, should have only resulted in a post or two imo.

I still have nothing but love for you all.

THREAD CLOSED FOR RECONSTRUCTION Please visit again in early spring of 2041

You both handle your thoughts and words well reading the "It was so cool that i didn't wanted to be human again" topic.
I partially agree with the both of you.
Following Endlessness idea: The forum has to serve a practical use and not only ideal and progressive. All types of persons use this forum.
And you doc savant, pointed it out, that this forum should be for all types of persons without judgement on flaws.

So we try as much as we can to please everyone, to a certain extend. What goes beyond falls off. Maybe a sacrifice to the greater good.
Maybe the forum should try to be more round, so nobody can fall off.