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Medical emergency: what to do? Options
 
The Traveler
#1 Posted : 3/29/2011 3:19:04 PM

"No, seriously"

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Looking at the general consensus on this topic together with common sense I came to the following conclusions:


When a person seeks our advice that is in medical territory (either physical or mental) we can roughly triage that in three medical advice groups:

Easy
Nausea, hangover, bumped their toe, etc.

When a person falls in this group we can all give our advice as we like. There is no direct medical need and there is not much we can do wrong.


Manageable
confusion, mild to medium stress, finding it difficult to deal with the experience.

Although this is comparatively easy, we should be a bit more reluctand with giving direct advice. Giving your story and experience might be a good thing to help this person to understand where he/she is and what his or her options are, but we must not tell people what to do or not do.

The integration tips and the Health and Safety section in general are a good guideline.


Serious
Suicide tendencies, bleeding lungs, poisoning, symptoms resembling psychosis/schizophrenia, other serious health conditions etc.

This, as the name already suggests, is serious business. Even if some people think this might be a troll, we will have to take this serious. This means we have to try help them be reasonable and seek professional help.


We also have to understand that giving certain advice here will not work:

Giving advice to visit a shaman
Although this is probably meant well, most people are not living close enough to shamans to seek direct help and even if they do, good shamans will probably give people with issues like a bleeding lung advice to seek direct western medical attention. Good shamans know very well that they cannot cure all illnesses and that western medicine can cure an awfull lot. Also there is a chance that a person can seek an unscrupulous shaman which might not recognize the serious need for medical help and this can further worsen the person's situation

Advice to take a massive dose or get cured by dosing
Again, when people are in great need for relief, giving someone with suicide tendencies or serious mental condition the advice to take a massive dose of entheogens will very likely not cure this person. If a person visits the DMT-Nexus they most likely tried that already. Also the effects of entheogens is highly unpredictable, even more so for people with mental conditions, so there is no way to safely know psychedelics will help, quite possibly they will worsen the situation.

Psychedelics can strengthen the delusion of people in a bad way. If a person has delusional ideas and we give advice to take psychedelics, chances are that this will backfire.

Advice to NOT visit a professional western medical person
Many people in their lives have had a bad experience with professional western medical help. This has happened with many of us at the Nexus as well! But, that does not mean that all professionals are bad, just as eating bad food in a restaurant doesnt mean all cooks are bad.

So instead of giving the advice not to seek professional help, we should help the person in need see that there are professional people out there that can help. And that it is never too late to seek for those people.

Advice to stop medical treatment
Getting the dose information is one thing, knowing the exact treatment a person gets is another thing, who are we to say that this person is telling the truth about his or her treatment? Or that there isnt another significant variable the person didnt mention but that makes all the difference in the treatment?

Several treatments start with making things worse, stepping out of the treatment at those moments is a bad; there is a chance that people will stay in that worsened state. Most people here do not have a medical degree or enough understanding of certain treatments to give solid advice, and even those that do have medical degree cannot give solid advice by simply reading words on a screen. Face-to-face diagnosis and treatment follow-up is essential and anything otherwise is unethical, immoral, reckless and downright dangerous.

Also, for those that feel they researched enough, having read something on the internet is NOT the same as having full theoretical and practical experience so not having enough knowledge and understanting means you should NOT give advices like this!

Diagnose
It is not recommended to diagnose or reinforce alleged psycho-pathologies or mood disorders in people who claim to suffer them or ask for a diagnose to (1) feel special (2) seek treatment (3) substantiate hypochondriac or histrionic ideas. Diagnosing them or reinforcing them does more harm than good... especially on neurotic or depressed subjects. We are not e-docs and we are not here to give Dx or Tx.



What we can do is the following:

Be understanding
People in serious need will have to know if they are taken serious. Be polite, tell them you will listen and that you understand that they are in urgent need.

Listen well, be the ear not the mouth
Just listening to someone can help alleviate that persons distress. Talking too much can be counterproductive, know when to talk and when not.

Try to really understand
Put yourself in the place of that person. If that person is delusional think of the times where you had a hard time on entheogens and did not really know anymore who or what you were. What would have helped you at those times?

Carefully persuade this person to seek professional help
In cases where someone is highly delusional, we will have to walk a very thin line to get this persons attention and slowly try to drive him into the direction of professional medical help. Understand that people in a delusional state are likely to only accept the words that strenghten the delusion and reject the words that are not, be very careful with what you say!

Give complementary feedback
While we should never advice a drastic change of treatment, which should only be done so after discussing with one's doctor face-to-face, it is reasonable to suggest complementary non-intrusive ideas that do not fundamentally change a treatment. For example, any advice that helps one becoming more physically healthy such as starting regular exercise and a balanced diet are welcome. Also for mental issues, a network of support can be very beneficial, so ideas regarding trying to contact and get support from one's family and friends can be good to one's well being. Lastly, to complement medical treatment, dedicating to productive things such as learning languages or dedicating to some study or hobbie or work, as well as artistical expression through learning/playing instruments or painting, all can help a person achieving a balance and are beneficial for psychological healing.

It is extremely important, though, that all these suggestions arent given as something mutually exclusive to one's treatment! We should never advice someone to stop taking medication and starting to eat healthy, for example, but rather it should be complementary, things that can be added and potentially help improving one's condition and maybe enhancing/speeding up recovery (though again: the reduction or interruption of medication intake is a very serious issue that should only be decided together with one's doctor face-to-face!)



If any serious case will arise in the future, the mods and me will enforce this policy. Any post giving irresponsible advice will be edited or removed, and the person can be warned or even suspended depending on how dangerous the advice is. Shrugging away peoples problems will not make you a better person, so let us try to make the best we can, knowing that we are not infallible but knowing we did our best to help others. Living and taking care of oneself is hard enough, so lets be mindful how we help others.


Additional
Health and Safety
FAQ


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 

Have doubts about your samples? Get trusted results by having your samples tested.
 
Pandora
#2 Posted : 3/29/2011 3:40:37 PM

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Traveler,

Wow, really well written and makes perfect sense.

Are you folks aware that huge numbers of us barely know who Vlad is? Have only heard of the (OMG!) "electric jews" delusions and other issues via chat grapevine?

There are rumors (but rumors are just that) of an unconfirmed suicide (attempt).Sad Much confusion.

Is this in direct response to Vlad threads and responses therein? Or is this in response to Uncle Knucles's old Daily Rant du Jour thread which is also relevant to this point?

Finally, I noticed a couple/few typos. No big deal, but there was one that MAY have changed your intended meaning. I am not sure. But I thought I'd point out what I noticed:

TheTraveler wrote:
Listen well, be the ear not the mouth
Just listening to someone can help elevate that persons distress. Talking too much can be counterproductive, know when to talk and when not.


I cannot help but wonder if you meant aleviate rather than elevate?

Thanks for this incredibly well written guide that applies Occam's Razor, rationality, experience, as well as the reality of human nature and yet embraces empathy and humanity! Kudos!

Peace & Love
"But even if nothing lasts and everything is lost, there is still the intrinsic value of the moment. The present moment, ultimately, is more than enough, a gift of grace and unfathomable value, which our friend and lover death paints in stark relief."
-Rick Doblin, Ph.D. MAPS President
MAPS Bulletin Vol. XX, No. 1, pg. 2


Power is Power, but Knowledge is Self-Empowerment
 
FiorSirtheoir
#3 Posted : 3/29/2011 3:44:49 PM

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Good post.
The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it.
 
The Traveler
#4 Posted : 3/29/2011 3:45:43 PM

"No, seriously"

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Thank you Pandora,

Endlessness as well as obliguhl made additions to my first draft after which endlessness made it readable. Pleased


Pandora wrote:
TheTraveler wrote:
Listen well, be the ear not the mouth
Just listening to someone can help elevate that persons distress. Talking too much can be counterproductive, know when to talk and when not.


I cannot help but wonder if you meant aleviate rather than elevate?


Whoops, I changed that to alleviate. Thanx!

And yes, this is written in reponse to the vlad and the Rant Du Jour thread.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Bill Cipher
#5 Posted : 3/29/2011 4:57:31 PM
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Thank you guys. Excellent work as always.
 
acolon_5
#6 Posted : 3/29/2011 5:06:44 PM

The Great Namah


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It kinda makes me sad that this announcement was necessary...but since it is, very well put, and very sound advice.
The Spice extends life
The Spice expands consciousness
The Spice is vital for space travel
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Never underestimate the power of STUFF!


I am certifiably insane, as such all posts written by me should be regarded as utter nonsense or attempts to get attention.

I don't know SWIM and personally don't trust him at all. If SWIM is posting, most likely I will not respond...as I said, I don't trust the guy. YOU I trust, but never SWIM.
 
clouds
#7 Posted : 3/29/2011 5:16:05 PM

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Diagnose
It is not recommended to diagnose or reinforce alleged psycho-pathologies or mood disorders in people who claim to suffer them or ask for a diagnose to (1) feel special (2) seek treatment (3) substantiate hypochondriac or histrionic ideas. Diagnosing them or reinforcing them does more harm than good... especially on neurotic or depressed subjects. We are not e-docs and we are not here to give Dx or Tx.


 
jbark
#8 Posted : 3/29/2011 5:39:33 PM

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I am elated and relieved to see this become policy - I think it clears a lot up and will avert lengthy discussions around the subject now that we have something official to which to refer. Great work Traveler. And thanks for pushing the ball along Art. This subject has been weighing heavily on me of late, and it is good to see a responsible and sensible policy arise from all these discussions. Though I am sure it won't please everyone, I feel that this is a great step in the right direction, "harm-reduction"-wise. I will read it again more carefully to see if there is anything that can be added, but it seemed pretty comprehensive the first time around (other than the elevated/alleviated typoTwisted Evil ).

Cheers,

JBArk
JBArk is a Mandelthought; a non-fiction character in a drama of his own design he calls "LIFE" who partakes in consciousness expanding activities and substances; he should in no way be confused with SWIM, who is an eminently data-mineable and prolific character who has somehow convinced himself the target he wears on his forehead is actually a shield.
 
obliguhl
#9 Posted : 3/29/2011 5:45:25 PM

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What makes me happy the most is, that this is a real group effort...Smile
 
actualfactual
#10 Posted : 3/29/2011 5:51:22 PM

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great post
 
BananaForeskin
#11 Posted : 3/29/2011 6:48:51 PM

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Yep, a very wise and welcome piece of policy! Glad to see the Nexus staying cool and clean : )
¤ø¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø¸„ø¤º¨

.^.^.^.^.^.^(0)=õ




 
Steely
#12 Posted : 3/29/2011 7:46:50 PM

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I must thank everyone who was apart of this lengthy, heated debate, because while I agree that this policy having been necessary to create comes off as a bad sign (Not to mention how prying eyes will see this as Nexus protecting itself from legal issues), it has been done to insure purity of intent for the overall direction of this community.

Thank you all.
Do not listen to anything, "Steely" says. He is a made up character that his owner likes to role play with. His owner is very delusional and everything he says is completely untrue and ridiculous.
Hate is the choice of a clouded mind.
-"It takes humility to remember who we are"-
"There has to be evil so that good can prove its purity above it." - Buddha
 
Not Sure
#13 Posted : 3/29/2011 10:25:48 PM

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Very well thought out and an excellent post, BTW I love the color code you used.
If you have one bucket that contains 2 gallons and another bucket that contains 7 gallons, how many buckets do you have?"

Don't worry scrote. There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.
 
ElusiveMind
#14 Posted : 3/29/2011 10:53:12 PM

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Excellent rule to enforce, as while most people here will try to help someone with their best intentions, they are not that person... bottom line. Everyone is different and being so unique, I feel this new policy is well justified.
Again excellent rule to enforce,

ElusiveMind
The Tea Party wrote:
We exist in a world where the fear of Illusion is real
And we cling to the past to deny and confuse the ideal

DMTripper wrote:
Bliss of ignorance -> pain of knowledge -> integrate -> bliss of knowledge.

SWIM and ElusiveMind are fictional characters and everything they say is fictional
 
Ice House
#15 Posted : 3/30/2011 5:34:08 AM

Rider On The Storm

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Well said.
Ice House is an alter ego. The threads, postings, replys, statements, stories, and private messages made by Ice House are 100% unadulterated Bull Shit. Every aspect of the Username Ice House is pure fiction. Any likeness to SWIM or any real person is purely coincidental. The creator of Ice House does not condone or participate in any illicit activity what so ever. The makebelieve character known as Ice House is owned and operated by SWIM and should not be used without SWIM's expressed written consent.
 
shiznackazane
#16 Posted : 6/1/2011 3:47:12 AM

Consider The Octopus


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I don't post here very much, but as I do with most forums that I have an appreciation for, I lurk often. I've learned a great deal from this community over the past few years and as a result I have had some incredible experiences, much more than indirectly due to DMT Nexus' collective intelligent insight.

Policies and collective efforts to spread helpful information such as this make me feel that much more at home here. Thank you all for your input and energy that you have given to this community.

I'm glad we're back!

Cheers.
 
smokerx
#17 Posted : 3/4/2013 10:17:25 PM

ThGiL fO TiRipS


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adorno wrote:
It sounds like she is going to be alright, she is already doing the chemo


Sorry for saying this my friend but Chemotherapy and Alright does not go together IMO.

I wish all the best for her.




We are each of us angels with only one wing, and we can only fly by embracing one another.

*********

We are all living in our own feces.
 
The Traveler
#18 Posted : 3/5/2013 8:40:19 AM

"No, seriously"

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smokerx wrote:
adorno wrote:
It sounds like she is going to be alright, she is already doing the chemo


Sorry for saying this my friend but Chemotherapy and Alright does not go together IMO.

Pleased


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
SpartanII
#19 Posted : 3/5/2013 8:54:13 AM

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smokerx wrote:
adorno wrote:
It sounds like she is going to be alright, she is already doing the chemo


Sorry for saying this my friend but Chemotherapy and Alright does not go together IMO.

I wish all the best for her.






Agreed. Poisoning the body and the cancer may treat the symptoms, but perhaps not the cause.

I don't see DMT as being a cause of disease as it's usually beneficial to the mind and spirit, not to mention it's naturally occurring in the body.

I would suggest starting her off with nutrition therapy as in juicing fresh organic fruits and veggies (less fruit, more veggies because sugar has been implicated in promoting cancer), and exploring alternative treatment options, along with a solid meditation/QiGong routine.

Best wishes to her.

 
Bill Cipher
#20 Posted : 3/16/2013 4:46:10 AM
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SpartanII wrote:
smokerx wrote:
adorno wrote:
It sounds like she is going to be alright, she is already doing the chemo


Sorry for saying this my friend but Chemotherapy and Alright does not go together IMO.

I wish all the best for her.






Agreed. Poisoning the body and the cancer may treat the symptoms, but perhaps not the cause.

I don't see DMT as being a cause of disease as it's usually beneficial to the mind and spirit, not to mention it's naturally occurring in the body.

I would suggest starting her off with nutrition therapy as in juicing fresh organic fruits and veggies (less fruit, more veggies because sugar has been implicated in promoting cancer), and exploring alternative treatment options, along with a solid meditation/QiGong routine.

Best wishes to her.



How about if we let his friend follow her doctor's treatment plan, and try our best to keep our big, fat, hippy yaps shut with regard to conflicting advice?

I'm truly sorry for her bad news and wish her only the best. To believe, however, that there's a cause and effect at work here stemming from one very recent DMT experience just isn't a logical conclusion.
 
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