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Where are we at a grass tek? Options
 
AlbertKLloyd
#41 Posted : 6/13/2011 6:53:41 PM

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I don't see any mention of the methylated betacarbolines known from Phalaris species, but they should be considered and are known from several active phalaris species.
The pharmacology of these is little studied but at least one of them seems to be involved in the Jungle Spice effects and is indicated as potently active in some way.

The fresh young growth of phalaris is effective and any standard method of extraction for DMT would be effective upon a large enough volume of tender new leaves only a few days old.

Prolonged boiling is not required to obtain the alkaloids either, so in theory a large volume of water like 3-4 gallons could be used to simmer bundles of fresh tips in a series, accommodating over all far more grass than would fit into the pot itself by simmering the grass for 10-15 min, then taking it out, draining it well and putting a new bundle in and repeating.

Because the grasses do not contain large amounts of alkaloids concentrating the material in such a manner is one the only feasible methods of making a extract in any decent amount.

Gramine has not been shown to occur (has it?) in the forms of the plants that contain DMT or 5Meo and in some forms betacarbolines are the major alkaloid.

Small amounts of fresh grass juice, such as a tablespoon or two... have also been reported active, including when taken with harmala alkaloids.
 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
endlessness
#42 Posted : 6/13/2011 6:59:03 PM

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AlbertKLloyd wrote:

The pharmacology of these is little studied but at least one of them seems to be involved in the Jungle Spice effects and is indicated as potently active in some way.

Gramine has not been shown to occur (has it?) in the forms of the plants that contain DMT or 5Meo and in some forms betacarbolines are the major alkaloid.


We're still waiting for people to try jungle double blind, it might be differences in effects are self-suggestion and/or inactive plant oils protecting DMT and therefore improving vaporization.

From where do you get that it is potently active?

Gramine has been shown to occur together with DMT and 5-MeO-DMT but one publication suggests there might be an inverse relationship between them (though in that very publication they claim their results arent generalizable, more tests need to be done.
 
Wax
#43 Posted : 6/13/2011 10:48:27 PM

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What if one was to sprout a shit load of seeds, harvest the shoots, dry in food dehydrator, powderize the dried shoots, then perform a dry a/b? Since gramine and hordenine arent soluble in naptha it seems you would end up with a crystal yeild....right?
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jamie
#44 Posted : 6/13/2011 11:11:28 PM

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^ no. You have to reduce the oxides first if you want to pull with naptha.
It may seem like alot of things, but until you actaully work with it yourself you wont understand how difficult grass teks seem to be. If it were as simple as doing an ordinary A/B we would all have endless ammounts of DMT.
 
Wax
#45 Posted : 6/13/2011 11:27:50 PM

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Didnt think so but thought id throw it out there anyway, haha. better leave this up to the smart kids, ill be out mowing the lawn for you guys Laughing
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jamie
#46 Posted : 6/13/2011 11:39:07 PM

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it is worth trying, just be patient and get some rootbark in the meantime. Working out a doable tek is going to take time..but it is worth it.
 
AlbertKLloyd
#47 Posted : 6/14/2011 5:14:25 PM

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endlessness wrote:

Gramine has been shown to occur together with DMT and 5-MeO-DMT

Can you provide the reference for this please?

As for the 2meTHBC, it is implicated as the culprit behind jungle spice activity and is implicated as a potently active betacarboline, i never said it is potently active, just indicated that it is and until this is ruled out it seems unwise to discount it.

Considering that the molecule is found in Russian olive, extracts of which potentiate DMT, and it is found in phalaris and MHRB as well, there is a lot to suggest that is is strongly active as a betacarboline.

In at least one phalaris form this alkaloid is the major alkaloid, this is in P. paradoxa CPI 14073. I'll sow some soon.
 
AlbertKLloyd
#48 Posted : 6/14/2011 5:26:23 PM

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fractal enchantment wrote:

It may seem like alot of things, but until you actaully work with it yourself you wont understand how difficult grass teks seem to be. If it were as simple as doing an ordinary A/B we would all have endless ammounts of DMT.

It is as simple as doing an STB, the yields are just really low because phalaris is rarely strong. 1 kg of fresh grass is only about 50g dried and in many cases 0.02% alkaloid is strong material. 2kg of fresh strong phalaris is unlikely to yield more than 20mg alkaloid. While some forms are considered stronger by wet weight, they are known to lose most of their alkaloid when dried and thus still fall into the 0.02-0.04% range at best.

however phalaris extractions have been effective for some people for years and are nothing special and do not require any difference in the approach, many of the same methods that work for MHRB work for phalaris.


i found some data on the gramine co-occurring thing. My mistake, clearly it can occur with DMT in some cases.
 
endlessness
#49 Posted : 6/14/2011 5:47:45 PM

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AlbertKLloyd wrote:
endlessness wrote:

Gramine has been shown to occur together with DMT and 5-MeO-DMT

Can you provide the reference for this please?

As for the 2meTHBC, it is implicated as the culprit behind jungle spice activity and is implicated as a potently active betacarboline, i never said it is potently active, just indicated that it is and until this is ruled out it seems unwise to discount it.

Considering that the molecule is found in Russian olive, extracts of which potentiate DMT, and it is found in phalaris and MHRB as well, there is a lot to suggest that is is strongly active as a betacarboline.

In at least one phalaris form this alkaloid is the major alkaloid, this is in P. paradoxa CPI 14073. I'll sow some soon.


hmmm so far I indeed cant find gramine+dmt but this publication shows a sample that contains both 5-meo-dmt and hordenine, though the samples with gramine are not present in the dmt ones and vice versa.

http://www.sciencedirect...e/pii/S0031942200944327

There are a couple more papers I wanna check but dont have subscription, for example can you get access to this one:

http://www.informaworld....912906434~frm=titlelink

? Otherwise Snozz said he will try on friday


And then there are other alkaloids we have no idea about, like 5MMT:

http://www.sciencedirect...e/pii/S0031942200892468

+ all the differences in growing conditions and particular strains.

I think the best would be to get a collection of phalaris from different places analysed, find the best strain and reproduce that, see if even in different growing conditions the alkaloid profile is still favorable.

TLC with some basic standards + colorimetric tests would be a start but def arent enough if we really wanna evolve the grass teks. We need at least GC MS or LC.... I think benz analyzed some phalaris, lets see if he can give us feedback here
 
dreamer042
#50 Posted : 6/14/2011 6:25:15 PM

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I would love to see some tests done on the wild grasses to see if anyone finds anything interesting...

As far as selecting for the good strains, it's already been done for us.

Phalaris AQ1(high dmt strain), Big Medicine (clean dmt profile), and Yugo Red (clean 5-meo strain) cuts are all a quick google search away.

Wild grass is gonna be very hit and miss.

I think spreading, propagating, and testing the known strains is probably our best bet toward a proper grass tek right now.
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jamie
#51 Posted : 6/14/2011 6:49:12 PM

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^ the big medicine strain was bread for a clean 5meo profile. Johnney Appleseed preferred 5meo over DMT, and even compared his phalaris strain used with rue to rue with pure 5meo and said the grass was better due to other alkaoids it contained.
 
dreamer042
#52 Posted : 6/14/2011 7:02:11 PM

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fractal enchantment wrote:
^ the big medicine strain was bread for a clean 5meo profile. Johnney Appleseed preferred 5meo over DMT, and even compared his phalaris strain used with rue to rue with pure 5meo and said the grass was better due to other alkaoids it contained.


My research turns up a different story

"Big Medicine" is a clean DMT source.

Johnny Appleseed's 5-meo strain was called "Turkey Red"


Quote:

Phalaris arundinacea 'Big Medicine' Plant:
From the Entheogen Review Vol. XI 2002:-
This is my newest release that I have been working on for the last few years. I call it "Big Medicine". This is a tall fast-growing Phalaris species which contains DMT. It has been selected to be spread by root cuttings, and thus bypasses the genetic rearrangement which would result from relaying seed dissemination.

Phalaris arundinacea 'Turkey Red' Plant:
From the Entheogen Review Vol. XI 2002:-
My old, "Turkey red," was selected to produce 5-MeO-DMT because this is the alkaloid that I personally prefer for my own work and the work I do with groups around the country. I feel 5-MeO-DMT most closely mimics the natural enlightenment state of a fully functioning pineal-gland. It does not distract one with visuals, but open one's energy field and dissolves the energetic barriers between people. By taking about 75mg of the "Turkey red" extract - equivalent to about 7.5mg of 5-MeO-DMT - potentiated with a RIMA such as Syrian Rue, one can experience much healing, and in the right group, a unification of consciousness within the group. I believe this medicine has a role to play in the next stage of evolution, which must involve some form of group consciousness.
There are about five other alkaloids in Turkey red aswell. I do not know what most of them are. I have tried to experiment of separating out just the 5-MeO-DMT and taking that orally with a MAOI, and I do get and effect, comparable to that of chemically produced pharmahuasca from synthesised 5-MeO-DMT. However, It does not have the magical shamanic effect I like to use for my group use. I have about a thousand TLC plates of my tests, each with its own unique and different alkaloid mixture. This could keep graduate students busy for years elucidating the unique healing properties of these mixtures


^ lifted this from here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=16810

Quote:

Phalaris arundinacea P.I. 172443 Turkey (originating from Yagbasan, Sarikamis, Kars., Turkey); "Turkey Red" A clone selected from the strain; selected by J. Appleseed for consistent performance when dried foliage is used. [5-MeO-DMT is the predominate alkaloid.]
0.025% to 0.045% total alkaloid by wet weight (Appleseed).
tlc by Johnny Appleseed: fall 1994), 25 June, 17 Sept., 2 Nov. 1995)


^ here: http://www.erowid.org/li..._phalaris_strains.shtml

Quote:
Phalaris cv. Big Medicine
This is a hardy open field hybrid of unclear parentage. It is reported to be a good DMT container.

^ here: http://www.erowid.org/li...2_phalaris_species.shtml
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jamie
#53 Posted : 6/14/2011 8:26:41 PM

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yeah I guess you are right. I want both of those strains. The wild arundinacea here is active but there are other alkaloids as well..both of those strains mentioned above I believe are from BC, which is where I am. I would like to compare them to the wild stuff I extracted.
 
AlbertKLloyd
#54 Posted : 6/15/2011 7:39:46 PM

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the dose for big med is about 1 kg of grass fresh, or a double handful or so...
I grew it for awhile, still have some in the yard at my ex-wifes place
it is still too weak to be considered very productive, however it is good for an individual to employ it a couple of times a year
 
SnozzleBerry
#55 Posted : 6/25/2011 5:03:09 AM

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endlessness wrote:

There are a couple more papers I wanna check but dont have subscription...Otherwise Snozz said he will try on friday

Here's those three papers.
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jamie
#56 Posted : 6/25/2011 5:05:27 AM

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AlbertKLloyd wrote:
the dose for big med is about 1 kg of grass fresh, or a double handful or so...
I grew it for awhile, still have some in the yard at my ex-wifes place
it is still too weak to be considered very productive, however it is good for an individual to employ it a couple of times a year


Can you elaborate on your experience with it? Did you extract it or brew with it?..what was the experience like?
 
jamie
#57 Posted : 6/25/2011 10:37:50 PM

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sorry, but I need to bump this thread. Now is the season here for collecting wild grass and it is everywhere. I have a bed of wild arundinacea seeds germinating right now indoors beside my caapi and mimosa and we need all of the information we can collect on these grasses.
 
SnozzleBerry
#58 Posted : 6/25/2011 10:56:19 PM

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Just added three papers...do we need any more? Post any requests and I'll grab them this week. Very happy
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jamie
#59 Posted : 6/25/2011 11:21:00 PM

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Well..anything that is not here already I guess..

Really though I wish there was more first hand reports of people using the grass..like that post above from last night about using the big medicine strain..except less vague. People always say "oh yeah I used it, it kinda worked or it did work etc"..but vague statements like that really dont help us at all. Specific details reguarding it's effects, side effects, how it was prepared and consumed and how it compared to others like mimosaetc..was it more like 5meo or DMT, or more like something else altogether?..

For me the effects have varried with arundinacea. I actaully did do extractions and smoked the resulting goo I have ended up with. Definite tryptamine effects were experienced, though I only took small doses as I was cautious and so the pleasant "trip" like effects were minor along with other less interesting and comfortable side effects..possible hordenine. The bulk of these experiments were more in line with my DMT experiences, in that there was some very minor visuals, but once with grass I collected in the winter, that was all yellow and dead looking I experienced what I would imagine 5meo to be like..though I never had pure 5meo to compare it to.

I know I have stated all this before, prob in this thread..but it is important becasue very few people have actaully done an extraction and proceeded to test what they came up with. Most people I hear of just throwing the resulting goo or whatever away. Since people like Jim DeKorn and Johnney Appleseed seem to have great experiences reported with oral grass from a juicer(and even smoking the evaporated juice in salt form I assume) it would really help us out if anyone with any type of experience at all consuming these products could be as detailed as possible when talking about it. This way we can figure this whole thing out much more effectivly.
 
Ginkgo
#60 Posted : 9/18/2011 3:52:40 AM

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Any developments here? Smile I am currently working on several different species of grass. Would be interesting to see if some other members could help out too!

Could someone give me a brief summary of what extraction teks seems to work or not work, and why? Could we perhaps make an eco friendly tek?

Stay tuned for a lot more work on these grasses! But please, help out you too! Smile
 
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